Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[CM86]

And if an Australian citizen wants to marry someone from overseas who isn't highly skilled?

And what about highly skilled individuals from those societies you see as worse? Should they be allowed here?

What I'd like to see are some examples of 'values' of these countries that we need to stop from entering 'our' countries. The values that integrate/assimilate into 'our' countries.

Without going back to religion.


Most of the examples I've ever seen, are already represented in 'our countries', even from people in high levels of influence.
But the people opposing immigration never go after the people pushing those antithetical 'values'.
In fact they tend to defend these people with claims of 'free speech' and being anti-censorship.

 

[CM86]

The idea would be that highly skilled individuals have a job in Australia, usually well paid, they're educated, have the financial wherewithal to come to Australia. Those people have more to lose from being disruptive in a society and are therefore more likely to assimilate.

To me, this is a statement of socio-economics.
Rather than ethnicity or country of origin.


Do you believe that if we better supported and educated immigrants/refugees, that they would 'assimilate' much more easily and rapidly?

Or, do you think socio-economics plays a lot less of a part, or no part?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If you bring in unskilled migrants, refugees, and other non high skilled migrants there is a higher likelihood that they will not assimilate as they have nothing to lose by disrupting Australian society.

What do you mean by "disrupting Australian society"?

 

[Frank Bunn]

What would be the specific focus of such an inquiry?

The Catholic Church (and the Anglican Church, which has had similar failings) and institutions that enjoy status and protections in UK society. They are organised and have their tentacles in many steands of society that imply trust and integrity and involve pastoral care of young people.

An investigation into the structural failings of such institutions that enabled and covered up systematic abuse of young people has a sharp focus.

In contrast, how would a national enquiry investigate “Islam” (or any other broad religious group) based on a notion that lots of sex offenders identify with such religion? A broad faith group is not an organised institution.

An inquiry would focus on the systematic failures by the police, prosecutors and local councils to protect thousands of young girls who were being abused. Much of it was due to those in authority not wishing to appear Islamophobic. Some people did not speak out for fear that it might cost them votes in upcoming elections.

There needs to be a national inquiry because the same pattern of abuse and failure to prevent it happened across England. Girls were being trafficked around the country which suggests some level of coordination. The same questions need to be asked of Islamic leaders that were asked of Catholic leaders. How much did they know? Did they cover it up?

I doubt any UK government will highlight the cultural aspects that were the underlying factors behind the abuse of thousands of young girls. As I posted earlier, Muna Adil is of British Pakistani heritage and helped produce a report for Quilliam on the grooming gang cases.

There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam.​

https://www.quilliaminternational.com/press-release-new-quilliam-report-on-grooming-gangs/

 

[CM86]

An inquiry would focus on the systematic failures by the police, prosecutors and local councils to protect thousands of young girls who were being abused. Much of it was due to those in authority not wishing to appear Islamophobic. Some people did not speak out for fear that it might cost them votes in upcoming elections.

There needs to be a national inquiry because the same pattern of abuse and failure to prevent it happened across England. Girls were being trafficked around the country which suggests some level of coordination. The same questions need to be asked of Islamic leaders that were asked of Catholic leaders. How much did they know? Did they cover it up?

I doubt any UK government will highlight the cultural aspects that were the underlying factors behind the abuse of thousands of young girls. As I posted earlier, Muna Adil is of British Pakistani heritage and helped produce a report for Quilliam on the grooming gang cases.

There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam.​

https://www.quilliaminternational.com/press-release-new-quilliam-report-on-grooming-gangs/

Please do not get your 'information' from the bankrupt (morally and financially) Quilliam think-tank.

Quilliams 'report' was one of the most widely used tools to unfairly target immigrants/Muslims etc.
It had even more power due to it's appearance of authority, as an 'unbiased report'.

It was one of the more damaging pieces that prevented victims from receiving justice/care/support, while enabling CSE to continue.
It played a major role in hate crimes against innocent people for how they looked, across the 'Western' world.


Anyone who genuinely cares about this issue. Please actually read into it.
Don't get your information from people who make money via promoting hate and fear.

Please refer to the 2020 Home Office report.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ual-exploitation-characteristics-of-offending

​

Link to the full report.

---- Group-based child sexual exploitation characteristics of offending (accessible version)​

​

Link to the Lit Review of the report.

---- Characteristics of group-based child sexual exploitation in the community: literature review (accessible version)​

If you've got time to read this thread, you've got time to educate yourself on the actual available information.

Both the report and the review will answer almost any question you have on this issue.
And it's actually about preventing CSE and CSA. Rather than weaponising victims to attack immigrants.
Please at least read the review.












Centre of expertise on child sexual abuse (CSA Centre)

 

[CM86]

https://www.csacentre.org.uk/resear...cale-nature-of-abuse/trends-in-official-data/

Child sexual abuse in 2022/23: Trends in official data
Most recent from the CSA Centre.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

You're absolutely right. If I had it my way we would have absolutely zero immigration other than high skilled migration. The third world, be they Islamic, seik, catholic or whatever is incompatible with Australian values.

So you would prefer Australians working all the low paid jobs?

 

[10571z]

Yeah I doubt that, have you got evidence?

“51% of Australians had unfavourable sentiments towards Islam,”

Australians accepting of migrants but negative towards Islam, poll finds

New wide-ranging YouGov data gives insight into the Australian identity

www.theguardian.com

Negative attitudes about Muslims in Australia remain high, survey finds

The annual Scanlon Foundation report has found negative attitudes about Muslims remain high, while concerns about climate change have almost doubled.

www.sbs.com.au

New analysis reveals Islamophobia is still alive in Australia | Western Sydney University

www.westernsydney.edu.au

 

[sr36]

We need to protect our culture from non-Australian influences. Our Italian/Germanic language, our middle Eastern religion, our food, beliefs and values that come from all over the world need to be protected against non-Australian influence ...

 

[peetoo]

An inquiry would focus on the systematic failures by the police, prosecutors and local councils to protect thousands of young girls who were being abused. Much of it was due to those in authority not wishing to appear Islamophobic. Some people did not speak out for fear that it might cost them votes in upcoming elections.

There needs to be a national inquiry because the same pattern of abuse and failure to prevent it happened across England. Girls were being trafficked around the country which suggests some level of coordination. The same questions need to be asked of Islamic leaders that were asked of Catholic leaders. How much did they know? Did they cover it up?

I doubt any UK government will highlight the cultural aspects that were the underlying factors behind the abuse of thousands of young girls. As I posted earlier, Muna Adil is of British Pakistani heritage and helped produce a report for Quilliam on the grooming gang cases.

There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam.​

https://www.quilliaminternational.com/press-release-new-quilliam-report-on-grooming-gangs/

Seems to have got more media than the sex trafficking scandal in Australia

 

[Carringbush2010]

“51% of Australians had unfavourable sentiments towards Islam,”

Australians accepting of migrants but negative towards Islam, poll finds

New wide-ranging YouGov data gives insight into the Australian identity

www.theguardian.com

Negative attitudes about Muslims in Australia remain high, survey finds

The annual Scanlon Foundation report has found negative attitudes about Muslims remain high, while concerns about climate change have almost doubled.

www.sbs.com.au

New analysis reveals Islamophobia is still alive in Australia | Western Sydney University

www.westernsydney.edu.au

These are opinion pieces,

51% of Australians had unfavourable sentiments towards Islam, and only 10% looked upon the religion positively, making Australia more negative than 17 of the other 22 countries surveyed.

10 % looked upon the religion positively? I mean really? I'd confidently argue that figure applies to religion as a whole not just islam, it's a nothing burger statement.

There were a total of 3,500 respondents to the survey - 1,500 via telephone interviews and 2,000 via the self-completion survey, which asks some 90 questions. All participants are anonymous.

If it was 3.5 million I might give it credence, but 3500 out of 27 million, yeah I'm not convinced.

This is not evidence, this is clutching at straws by the media for the purposes of (as per usual) to drive click to suck in the naive like yourself.

And this is the problem, willing to bet if you ask Jan and Joe public if islam / muslim immigration is a problem they'd probably go 'meh, yeah nah'.

You could argue that's not enough evidence from me, because no one including these polls above can gather enough evidence to prove without doubt one way or the other.

So once again your fear of armegeddon is unfounded.

 

[peetoo]

90 questions? Probably made people grumpy by the end

 

[JackOutback]

That's ridiculously reductive.

Why bother having extensive inquiries into the Catholic church, British Pakistanis, Aboriginal communities if the answer is just that all men are potential child sexual abusers?

Why is it ok to link child abuse to one characteristic (religion) but when it’s pointed out there is a far more common characteristic that connects them, it’s ‘reductive’? Is it because you share that characteristic and find it abhorrent that people would try to tar you with something horrific because of the actions of others? If so, congratulations, self actualisation can’t be far behind.

 

[JackOutback]

What is wrong, inherently, from anti immigration stance?

You look at two countries like Australia on the one hand and say India, or Pakistan, or Afghanistan on the other.

One of those countries is better than the other. It has better standard of living, lower crime rates, higher social trust.

You import individuals from those countries to the better country and to the extent they do not assimilate they make the better country worse. That is inevitable.

Why should the better country do that? Out of pity?

So just to be clear, you are saying Australia, a country built on immigration, is superior to countries such as Afghanistan and Pakistan, which are far more insular and have less immigration? So we should become more insular and have less immigration.

Can you show your working here?

 

[adammania9]

What do you think should happen to Middle Easterners that currently live in 'white' countries?

I actually appreciate that you're not just hiding behind 'religion' on this. And I'd like to better understand your positions if you're willing?

Either assimilate or return to your home country, before Australia and other first world countries are dragged down to the level of the country they fled. Mosques and schools are complete and utter wastes of real estate and promote their religious culture that is the reason they no longer live in their home country. It is akin to a Romanian who fled his horrid life under totalitarian communism only to begin a similar movement in London. Their culture - impacted by many things such as economic policy, warfare and religion - is the reason they move to a country like Australia or UK or Germany. To bring their ideologies with them is a spit in the face of the culture of their new home.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Either assimilate or return to your home country, before Australia and other first world countries are dragged down to the level of the country they fled. Mosques and schools are complete and utter wastes of real estate and promote their religious culture that is the reason they no longer live in their home country. It is akin to a Romanian who fled his horrid life under totalitarian communism only to begin a similar movement in London. Their culture - impacted by many things such as economic policy, warfare and religion - is the reason they move to a country like Australia or UK or Germany. To bring their ideologies with them is a spit in the face of the culture of their new home.

Conspiracy!

If you honestly believe this, then you're an absolute moron.

 

[sr36]

Either assimilate or return to your home country, before Australia and other first world countries are dragged down to the level of the country they fled. Mosques and schools are complete and utter wastes of real estate and promote their religious culture that is the reason they no longer live in their home country. It is akin to a Romanian who fled his horrid life under totalitarian communism only to begin a similar movement in London. Their culture - impacted by many things such as economic policy, warfare and religion - is the reason they move to a country like Australia or UK or Germany. To bring their ideologies with them is a spit in the face of the culture of their new home.

I suspect you have a very limited understanding of Islam and view it as a uniform monolith of belief warring with Christianity.

The reality however is that the real Islamic battle is between fellow Muslims with a pretty new branches of militants fighting for power, territory and often their cultural group's interests against other muslim cultural groups or simply other Muslim groups with very different interpretations of Islam.

When a Hazara from Afghanistan becomes a refugee. They're not fleeing from their culture or their Islamic beliefs. Their fleeing the Taliban - which is made up from an entirely different cultural group and vastly different beliefs around Islam.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

So just to be clear, you are saying Australia, a country built on immigration, is superior to countries such as Afghanistan and Pakistan, which are far more insular and have less immigration? So we should become more insular and have less immigration.

Can you show your working here?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand the difference between a third world, Islamic state and Australia.

 

[peetoo]

Either assimilate or return to your home country, before Australia and other first world countries are dragged down to the level of the country they fled. Mosques and schools are complete and utter wastes of real estate and promote their religious culture that is the reason they no longer live in their home country. It is akin to a Romanian who fled his horrid life under totalitarian communism only to begin a similar movement in London. Their culture - impacted by many things such as economic policy, warfare and religion - is the reason they move to a country like Australia or UK or Germany. To bring their ideologies with them is a spit in the face of the culture of their new home.

if assimilation means donning aus flag thongs etc and heading to the pub for a skinful on aus day as our conservative politicians were suggesting, can count many more of us out tbh

 

[peetoo]

I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand the difference between a third world, Islamic state and Australia.

Areas of the world which once were the birthplaces of civilisation

 

[10571z]

These are opinion pieces,

51% of Australians had unfavourable sentiments towards Islam, and only 10% looked upon the religion positively, making Australia more negative than 17 of the other 22 countries surveyed.

10 % looked upon the religion positively? I mean really? I'd confidently argue that figure applies to religion as a whole not just islam, it's a nothing burger statement.

There were a total of 3,500 respondents to the survey - 1,500 via telephone interviews and 2,000 via the self-completion survey, which asks some 90 questions. All participants are anonymous.

If it was 3.5 million I might give it credence, but 3500 out of 27 million, yeah I'm not convinced.

This is not evidence, this is clutching at straws by the media for the purposes of (as per usual) to drive click to suck in the naive like yourself.

And this is the problem, willing to bet if you ask Jan and Joe public if islam / muslim immigration is a problem they'd probably go 'meh, yeah nah'.

You could argue that's not enough evidence from me, because no one including these polls above can gather enough evidence to prove without doubt one way or the other.

So once again your fear of armegeddon is unfounded.

Err what type of evidence would you like besides polls?

I’m not sure why you find it so hard to believe Islam is very disliked in the western world:

 

[Carringbush2010]

Err what type of evidence would you like besides polls?

I’m not sure why you find it so hard to believe Islam is very disliked in the western world:

Probably coz it's likely not disliked per se, but media and social media narrative would have you believe that it is.

If you were to ask all of Jan and Joe public, they'd probably not like / dislike and would largely not give it the time of day.

Polls are too small a sample size to definitively say one way or the other.

 

[CM86]

Err what type of evidence would you like besides polls?

I’m not sure why you find it so hard to believe Islam is very disliked in the western world:

He never developed object permanence.

 

[10571z]

So just to be clear, you are saying Australia, a country built on immigration, is superior to countries such as Afghanistan and Pakistan, which are far more insular and have less immigration? So we should become more insular and have less immigration.

Can you show your working here?

This is just a terrible argument.

 

[CM86]

This is just a terrible argument.

Yes, that's what he's pointing out.

That's why the working can't be shown.