Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[CM86]

I think the more evil thing is allowing rape gangs to proliferate in your country. While I think Liz Truss' party is equally to blame and there has clearly been political footballing of the issue, with neither party standing up enough, the issue remains that the UK political system has failed its country and Jess Phillips should immediately resign. Starmer too.

No. You're wrong.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/944206/Group-based_CSE_Paper.pdf

That's a link to the PDF 2020 paper.




View attachment 2197353

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https://www.csacentre.org.uk/app/uploads/2023/09/CSA-trends-in-official-data-2020-21.pdf
That's a link to the "Child sexual abuse in 2020/21: Trends in official data" PDF.

View attachment 2197357


Both are worth reading, for anyone who actually cares about this issue, and isn't just using it as an excuse to parrot racist talking points to spread fear and hate.

It also goes into detail in how there is under-representation of non-white offenders due to the victims fear of coming forward and the impact it can have on them and their families in their community. Muslim communities, for example.


My position is to ensure that all victims feel safe and able to come forward.
Which is not a society we will create by promoting misinformation, fear and hate.


What do the rest of you think? Should we ensure victims feel accepted in our community, so they're able to come forward and be saved?
Or should we spread fear, hate and lies in order to ensure they have nowhere to go?

I'd rather we understand where the system is failing, and how to fix it.
What about you? Would you rather we ignore the failings of the systems, and just focus on a single group of vicious offenders to promote ideological hatred, ignoring the failings of the systems, the causes, the impacts etc?
Or, would you rather find ways to ensure children are safe?

Please do not get your 'information' from the bankrupt (morally and financially) Quilliam think-tank.

Quilliams 'report' was one of the most widely used tools to unfairly target immigrants/Muslims etc.
It had even more power due to it's appearance of authority, as an 'unbiased report'.

It was one of the more damaging pieces that prevented victims from receiving justice/care/support, while enabling CSE to continue.
It played a major role in hate crimes against innocent people for how they looked, across the 'Western' world.


Anyone who genuinely cares about this issue. Please actually read into it.
Don't get your information from people who make money via promoting hate and fear.

Please refer to the 2020 Home Office report.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ual-exploitation-characteristics-of-offending

​

Link to the full report.

---- Group-based child sexual exploitation characteristics of offending (accessible version)​

​

Link to the Lit Review of the report.

---- Characteristics of group-based child sexual exploitation in the community: literature review (accessible version)​

If you've got time to read this thread, you've got time to educate yourself on the actual available information.

Both the report and the review will answer almost any question you have on this issue.
And it's actually about preventing CSE and CSA. Rather than weaponising victims to attack immigrants.
Please at least read the review.


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Centre of expertise on child sexual abuse (CSA Centre)
View attachment 2197385

 

[CM86]

Just a thought.

If people with far-right/extreme-right positions interact in social groups that are also far-right, there's a good chance that there will be some far-right people of Islamic background.

So is it possible that most of their interactions with 'Muslims', reinforce the idea that all Muslims are borderline radical extremists?


Because most people have known and have interacted with Muslims who are just blatantly Australian. They're not radical, or extremists. They're just friends, neighbours, family etc.

But if you never interact with Muslim people outside of far-right social groups, you wouldn't see or believe this.
You'd only see the far-right positions.


Semi-connected to that thought.
Like, Andrew Tate... For a period of time he was one of the the most popular and influential right wing figures for young men in Western countries.
All of his actions, statements and movements were defended under free speech etc etc.
So apparently more than compatible with Western values.
He converted to Islam in late 2022.
So these groups with these views are more than happy to embrace the more extreme aspects of Islam, but just not if it's connected to brown people from the Middle East.

I mean, people have still been supporting and defending Tate, who's been charged with child sex trafficking.
Gaetz is accused of child sex trafficking, and people supported his nomination for US Attorney General.
Trump just won the US election.



So it's not the values, the extremes, the victims, the dangers etc.
Is it all just a tool to use or a cloak to hide behind, to oppose brown people in 'white' countries?

 

[Osho]

Regarding the grooming / rape gangs, here is an interesting discussion worth a look.

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The next most shocking thing apart from the abuse, is the lack of action and investigation by officialdom of all stripes. There was a good BBC doco in 2017 or so, couldn't find it, but worth sourcing. The 2020 report basically says " we haven't done our homework and we don't know enough about what's going on". As usual the kids and young women seem to be further victimised by the issue becoming a political footy.

 

[CM86]

The 2020 report basically says " we haven't done our homework and we don't know enough about what's going on".

This 2020 report???

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...aracteristics-of-offending-accessible-version

Because other than deliberately misinterpreting the "Further developing the evidence base" section, I don't see how someone could make your quoted claim.

 

[Carringbush2010]

anyone who does actually follow Islam is inconsistent with Australian values.

As I said earlier, immigrants don't need to assimilate / integrate. If they choose not to, all they need to do is keep to themselves.

Again, you are talking about 'extremist' ideology rising if you block immigration. The ratio of 'extremists' to individuals is extremely small.

Yep, so what's to worry about?

I would of course support greater policing targeting radicalization of religious groups and note that with less Islamic migration, these radical individuals would have less power (less like minded individuals to persuade in Australia) and easier to identify.

So you agree that immigration is not the problem, it's lack of policing with teeth to reduce crime / anti social behaviour. Not immigration itself.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I disagree about assimilation. I think people should be required to assimilate to the culture they move to. This is just a difference of opinion between those that value "multiculturalism" and those that do not, so we don't need to discuss it further. I believe a lack of different cultures leads to a more harmonious, safer and better society.

In respect of the "extremist" part. I was merely responding to CM86s reference of that term and you should not interpret the discussion of extremism to mu argument as a whole. Islamic extremism is an issue. Which should be addressed (as per my comment) however in ADDITION to the "extremists" I consider non-extremist followers of Islam do not align with Australian values and should not be permitted entry to the country.

I would classify an extremist as someone who engages in political violence or who preaches political violence.

The issue we are discussing is how Islam promotes and propagates other undesirable elements, such as gang rape, child rape, child brides, cousin marriage, coercive violence, marital control and other elements which are common in a large number of followers of Islam who would not be considered "extremist"

Carringbush2010 apologies this was supposed to quote you, not sure what happened.

 

[sr36]

The issue we are discussing is how Islam promotes and propagates other undesirable elements, such as gang rape, child rape, child brides, cousin marriage, coercive violence, marital control and other elements which are common in a large number of followers of Islam who would not be considered "extremist"

You might need to learn a bit about Islam - beyond sensationalist right wing headlines - if you want to make claims about what it promotes?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

You might need to learn a bit about Islam - beyond sensationalist right wing headlines - if you want to make claims about what it promotes?

You're right. They're not true scotsmen!

 

[Frank Bunn]

You might need to learn a bit about Islam - beyond sensationalist right wing headlines - if you want to make claims about what it promotes?

There's a few different things to unpack there.

Islam doesn't promote gang rape of children but it was a factor in what happened in the UK. As the guy from Quilliam said, "There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam".

Sharia allows marriage when a person has reached puberty, which for girls could be as young as 9 years old. Most Muslim countries have set the minimum legal age for marriage to be 16 or 18. Afghanistan might be the only exception with no lower limit. In Iran girls can marry at 13, but it's not the only Muslim country where there are ways round that rule if a court approves. The Iranian Society For Protecting The Rights of The Child reported that in 2010, 716 girls younger than 10 had wed.

In addition, many Muslim countries have rules prohibiting sex outside marriage with punishments including public flogging or stoning. Many Muslim countries also have severe penalties for same sex relationships.

The consequences of cousin marriage is a recognised problem in the Islamic world and the problem is exacerbated in immigrant communities. Inbreeding in humans can result in increased risk of genetic disorders such as cystic fibrosis and congenital deafness. It can lead to lower IQ, learning difficulties and autism spectrum disorders. Studies have suggested that inbreeding may be linked to a higher risk of mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, depression, and anxiety. A British MP, Richard Holden, proposed a ban on first cousin marriages. It could be more of an educational issue than legislative.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I disagree about assimilation. I think people should be required to assimilate to the culture they move to. This is just a difference of opinion between those that value "multiculturalism" and those that do not, so we don't need to discuss it further. I believe a lack of different cultures leads to a more harmonious, safer and better society.

Yet we have people of different cultures who don't assimilate anyway, yet here we are in a harmonious and safe society.

Those who don't assimilate, generally don't impose their beliefs on others (at least in liberal democracies), those that do are met with societal backlash and if any anti social behaviour are met with punishment (or at least are supposed to).

That's why I agree with live and let live, if you don't agree with the values of our liberal democracy then keep it to yourself. The overwhelming majority of this societal members generally keep their disagreement to themselves.

I would classify an extremist as someone who engages in political violence or who preaches political violence.

Agreed, and in liberal democracies (read western countries like the UK and straya) they number minuscule, otherwise our society would look a lot worse than what it currently looks like.

The issue we are discussing is how Islam promotes and propagates other undesirable elements, such as gang rape, child rape, child brides, cousin marriage, coercive violence, marital control and other elements which are common in a large number of followers of Islam who would not be considered "extremist"

Again, rarity in liberal democracies.

@Carringbush2010 apologies this was supposed to quote you, not sure what happened.

No wuckers.

 

[sr36]

There's a few different things to unpack there.

Islam doesn't promote gang rape of children but it was a factor in what happened in the UK. As the guy from Quilliam said, "There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam".

Sharia allows marriage when a person has reached puberty, which for girls could be as young as 9 years old. Most Muslim countries have set the minimum legal age for marriage to be 16 or 18. Afghanistan might be the only exception with no lower limit. In Iran girls can marry at 13, but it's not the only Muslim country where there are ways round that rule if a court approves. The Iranian Society For Protecting The Rights of The Child reported that in 2010, 716 girls younger than 10 had wed.

In addition, many Muslim countries have rules prohibiting sex outside marriage with punishments including public flogging or stoning. Many Muslim countries also have severe penalties for same sex relationships.

The consequences of cousin marriage is a recognised problem in the Islamic world and the problem is exacerbated in immigrant communities. Inbreeding in humans can result in increased risk of genetic disorders such as cystic fibrosis and congenital deafness. It can lead to lower IQ, learning difficulties and autism spectrum disorders. Studies have suggested that inbreeding may be linked to a higher risk of mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, depression, and anxiety. A British MP, Richard Holden, proposed a ban on first cousin marriages. It could be more of an educational issue than legislative.

Catholicism has set the marriage limit at 14. Neither the Quran or the Bible stipulate a marriage age as they're products of their times. Every culture has a history of what by today's standards is considered child brides - so it's hardly surprising that ancient religions don't forbid this. Most Islamic and Christian countries do though. Yes in some Islamic countries, child marriages are still relatively common, as they are in some Christian countries, particularly in Latin America.

It's not very long ago that in white Australia acceptable "jokes" included: there's grass on the wicket, time to play cricket. Old enough to bleed, old enough for me. Obviously, those attitudes have become unacceptable in white Australian culture. Not sure why you think they won't or aren't already in Muslim Australian culture.

In Australia you can marry your first cousin - you can even marry your uncle or aunt - aunts and uncles are forbidden by both the Quran and the Bible - neither forbid first cousins. But yes education has made that uncommon in Australia - maybe not in Tassie... Not sure why you think it won't become uncommon amongst Muslim Australians or isn't already uncommon, particularly as most Islamic scholars consider it makruh (makruh means bad, haram means it's forbidden by the Quran).

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I disagree about assimilation. I think people should be required to assimilate to the culture they move to. This is just a difference of opinion between those that value "multiculturalism" and those that do not, so we don't need to discuss it further. I believe a lack of different cultures leads to a more harmonious, safer and better society.

So you want everyone to change their name to an English one and start barbecuing pork sausages?

 

[10571z]

Interesting graph. Maybe plonking bulk people at record pace in countries isn’t the brightest idea?
Mod Edit: GB News

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Foreign nationals more likely to be arrested for sexual offences

The sexual offences arrests - in 41 of the 43 forces in England and Wales - represented a quarter (26.1 per cent) of the estimated 35,000 total, according to analysis by a think tank.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[SaintsSeptember]

View attachment 2199464
Interesting graph. Maybe plonking bulk people at record paces in countries isn’t the brightest idea?

Foreign nationals more likely to be arrested for sexual offences

The sexual offences arrests - in 41 of the 43 forces in England and Wales - represented a quarter (26.1 per cent) of the estimated 35,000 total, according to analysis by a think tank.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Of course some would turn around and say the cops are being racist by arresting those foreigners.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I know the people who are determined to hate Muslims won't care, but I'm rather impressed when I read about the Alevis (not to be confused with Alawites), a branch of Islam that seems much more easygoing than the major sects. They don't regard the Quran as binding in the modern day, have their own places of worship separate to mosques, and appear to be keen on democracy, secularism and gender equality.

According to an article in the Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, Alevism "presents a culture, philosophy and version of Islam that is perfectly compatible with, and in some respects even exemplary of, the ideals of Western democratic societies" (1 Sept. 2004). The journal article added that Alevis possess a "democratic, laicist and egalitarian outlook" (Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies 1 Sept. 2004).

The Independent, a UK-based newspaper, reported the following information on the Alevi faith:

Alevis do not face Mecca when praying, are egalitarian in outlook, [and] have traditionally supported left or non-establishment parties...

They have often been very critical of hard-line Islamist parties, while at the same time they are proud to identify themselves as Muslims (The Independent 2 Aug. 2002).

Similarly, the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs reported that Alevis have "traditionally ... voted for the left, and have provided the country with some of its best-known and most radical secularists" (1 Mar. 2005). Agence France-Presse (AFP) also described Alevism as "friendly to secularism" (15 Dec. 2004).

Over the past several years, various news articles have reported that Alevis take a more relaxed or moderate approach to religion and the interpretation of Islam than do Sunnis (BBC 19 Nov. 2004; AFP 15 Dec. 2004).

Alevism allows the consumption of pork and alcohol (Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies 1 Sept. 2004)

Alevism allows men and women to pray together (Washington Report on Middle East Affairs 1 Mar. 2005; International Religious Freedom Report for 2004 15 Sept. 2004, Sec. I), for it is "friendly ... to gender equality" (AFP 15 Dec. 2004).

UNHCR Web Archive

webarchive.archive.unhcr.org

I think people in the West wouldn't be so opposed to Islam if Alevism was the dominant branch of it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I know the people who are determined to hate Muslims won't care, but I'm rather impressed when I read about the Alevis (not to be confused with Alawites), a branch of Islam that seems much more easygoing than the major sects. They don't regard the Quran as binding in the modern day, have their own places of worship separate to mosques, and appear to be keen on democracy, secularism and gender equality.

UNHCR Web Archive

webarchive.archive.unhcr.org

I think people in the West wouldn't be so opposed to Islam if Alevism was the dominant branch of it.

Its kind of a natural thing that people in a society like Australia will gravitate towards moderation.
Their kids will grow up here, and their grandkids, and no-matter how insular they try to be, they will eventually lose them if they don't go with the flow.

 

[peetoo]

View attachment 2199464
Interesting graph. Maybe plonking bulk people at record pace in countries isn’t the brightest idea?

Foreign nationals more likely to be arrested for sexual offences

The sexual offences arrests - in 41 of the 43 forces in England and Wales - represented a quarter (26.1 per cent) of the estimated 35,000 total, according to analysis by a think tank.

www.dailymail.co.uk

GB News makes our sky sound like nobel peace prize winners

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Of course some would turn around and say the cops are being racist by arresting those foreigners.

Half of the people in the world are below average intelligence. Those that think what you've proposed would likely be below average intelligence in that below average part.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Yet we have people of different cultures who don't assimilate anyway, yet here we are in a harmonious and safe society.

Those who don't assimilate, generally don't impose their beliefs on others (at least in liberal democracies), those that do are met with societal backlash and if any anti social behaviour are met with punishment (or at least are supposed to).

That's why I agree with live and let live, if you don't agree with the values of our liberal democracy then keep it to yourself. The overwhelming majority of this societal members generally keep their disagreement to themselves.

Agreed, and in liberal democracies (read western countries like the UK and straya) they number minuscule, otherwise our society would look a lot worse than what it currently looks like.

Again, rarity in liberal democracies.

No wuckers.

I think you're right, or close enough to right, on the situation in Auatralia. I don't think we're at crisis points currently and do suspect that current migrant levels, if you were to project forward would trend towards a stable society with no further input.

However reverting back to the topic that commenced this discussion - the UK, it appears on all available evidence that the tipping point has been passed in the UK. Islamic migration is too far and Islam too ententched that it has lead to the issues here discussed, a lack of harmony, and a lack of safety.

I'm arguing that we should cut the issue off before it arrives in Australia. I believe if we continue down the path we are on now undesirable elements of Islam will rear their head in Auatralia on a societal scale.

And my point remains: why do we need to take un skilled migrants from cultures that do not align with Australia. Pity? A fear or being considered racist? I think Auatralian safety and quality of life are worth more than progressive, holier than thou grandstanding.

 

[Carringbush2010]

However reverting back to the topic that commenced this discussion - the UK, it appears on all available evidence that the tipping point has been passed in the UK. Islamic migration is too far and Islam too ententched that it has lead to the issues here discussed, a lack of harmony, and a lack of safety.

Tipping point has been passed? Not convinced.

I don't see an Armageddon of societal change there, yes, there are examples of islamic immigration but'too far entrenched' to the point of societal change, yeah nah. You're talking about exception rather than the rule.

So, you might be correct in exceptional cases, but this isn't widespread. There'd also be exceptional cases even if there weren't immigration.

I think you're right, or close enough to right, on the situation in Auatralia. I don't think we're at crisis points currently and do suspect that current immigration levels, if you were to project forward would trend towards a stable society with no further input.

Yep, likely, so again, what is the problem?

 

[adogsfan5]

View attachment 2199464
Interesting graph. Maybe plonking bulk people at record pace in countries isn’t the brightest idea?

Foreign nationals more likely to be arrested for sexual offences

The sexual offences arrests - in 41 of the 43 forces in England and Wales - represented a quarter (26.1 per cent) of the estimated 35,000 total, according to analysis by a think tank.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Wow.. didn’t expect those numbers.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Tipping point has been passed? Not convinced.

I don't see an Armageddon of societal change there, yes, there are examples of islamic immigration but'too far entrenched' to the point of societal change, yeah nah. You're talking about exception rather than the rule.

So, you might be correct in exceptional cases, but this isn't widespread. There'd also be exceptional cases even if there weren't immigration.

Yep, likely, so again, what is the problem?

I should have been clearer. I meant current levels of migrants. Not current immigration levels. With the current trajectory of migrants and future Islamic immigration driven by conflict in the Middle East and our liberal immigration policy we are only decades away (if that) from UK style societal decay.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I should have been clearer. I meant current levels of migrants. Not current immigration levels. With the current trajectory of migrants and future Islamic immigration driven by conflict in the Middle East and our liberal immigration policy we are only decades away (if that) from UK style societal decay.

But the UK society is not in decay, you're talking about exceptional case that the media has portrayed as a 'problem'.

Yeah, it is a problem but not the proportions of 'societal decay' - probably never will be either.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

But the UK society is not in decay, you're talking about exceptional case that the media has portrayed as a 'problem'.

Yeah, it is a problem but not the proportions of 'societal decay' - probably never will be either.

I think that is the extent of the discussion. I believe that it is. I worry about the future of Australia for our children and beyond.

 

[sr36]

I think you're right, or close enough to right, on the situation in Auatralia. I don't think we're at crisis points currently and do suspect that current migrant levels, if you were to project forward would trend towards a stable society with no further input.

However reverting back to the topic that commenced this discussion - the UK, it appears on all available evidence that the tipping point has been passed in the UK. Islamic migration is too far and Islam too ententched that it has lead to the issues here discussed, a lack of harmony, and a lack of safety.

I'm arguing that we should cut the issue off before it arrives in Australia. I believe if we continue down the path we are on now undesirable elements of Islam will rear their head in Auatralia on a societal scale.

And my point remains: why do we need to take un skilled migrants from cultures that do not align with Australia. Pity? A fear or being considered racist? I think Auatralian safety and quality of life are worth more than progressive, holier than thou grandstanding.

In terms of the bolded - are you actually aware of Australia's migrant intake? It doesn't seem like you are. It's actually far closer to what your posts suggest you want - mainly skilled workers from non-Islamic majority countries, some family reunions and a small number of refugees - some Islamic countries in there - Iraq, Afghanistan amongst our biggest intake - Burma the other big one (mainly Christian Karen), but very small numbers of refugees by global standards. Australia's intake of mulsim migrants is small.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/research-and-stats/files/migration-trends-2022-23.PDF