News The Russian invasion of Ukraine

[ScragCity]

Just be careful of being so presumptuous that I think in black and white.

You said, "They aren't doing anything about it," with regard to climate change. That's a pretty absolute, black and white statement. It's also demonstrably false. Could they be doing more? Certainly. But their transition to renewables and targets are comparable with other developed countries.

The conversation wasn't about anyone else except China when I replied.

You can't make any valid criticism of China's climate policy without some point of reference or basis for comparison.

I'm not being pompous or trying to pick a fight with you. You're the one who replied to me with a vague statement about China's climate inaction. My intuition is that you're wrong so I'm pushing you to defend your statement, preferably with some kind of evidence. You don't need to resort to being combative or ridiculing my posts.

 

[NBates]

You said, "They aren't doing anything about it," with regard to climate change. That's a pretty absolute, black and white statement. It's also demonstrably false. Could they be doing more? Certainly. But their transition to renewables and targets are comparable with other developed countries.



You can't make any valid criticism of China's climate policy without some point of reference or basis for comparison.

I'm not being pompous or trying to pick a fight with you. You're the one who replied to me with a vague statement about China's climate inaction. My intuition is that you're wrong so I'm pushing you to defend your statement, preferably with some kind of evidence. You don't need to resort to being combative or ridiculing my posts.

 

[Brass Dog]

You said, "They aren't doing anything about it," with regard to climate change. That's a pretty absolute, black and white statement. It's also demonstrably false. Could they be doing more? Certainly. But their transition to renewables and targets are comparable with other developed countries.



You can't make any valid criticism of China's climate policy without some point of reference or basis for comparison.

I'm not being pompous or trying to pick a fight with you. You're the one who replied to me with a vague statement about China's climate inaction. My intuition is that you're wrong so I'm pushing you to defend your statement, preferably with some kind of evidence. You don't need to resort to being combative or ridiculing my posts.

Yep, we as Australians definitely can't criticise other nations when we emit some of the highest emissions per capita in the world. Our record at climate summits speaks for itself, actively undermining the process for self interest.

 

[LittleG]

Media realignment (massive changes):
Decreased Twitter mentions of RW media figures
Decreased viewing of RW media figures
Decreased money flowing into lots of RW media

Why?
Well, the Russia Internet Research group is busy. The money that flowed through there has mostly dried up. One of my “friends” (RW Media content producer), has so far lost 90% of his sponsorship and close to 95% of his viewership. He thinks it’s temporary but I disagree.

You would think that with War going on, ‘people’ would be more interested in extreme Nationalistic (nonsense) positions. But, instead ‘viewership’ (as in how many times this content is viewed is down, way down even if 99% in some cases).

Lesson:
Online ‘Viewership’ doesn’t equate to ‘People’. It’s a myth.


Additional:
Over 300,000 IT people are fighting for Ukraine against Russia. This fight is opening a lot of people’s eyes to reality of media. IF you are even a basic level hacker, you could help.

 

[NBates]

Love this (any other Clash fans out there?):

 

[footscray1973]

Love this (any other Clash fans out there?):

I wanted to simultaneously acknowledge your post with both the heart and sad emojis. The fact that women and children (non-combatants in clearly marked buildings) are being targeted by the Russians, and their military persist with this total bs:



needs to be called out more.

Russian representatives should not be allowed a voice at all in any UN forum, as all they spout are complete lies and fabrications. Their UN ambassador and all "Kremlin representatives" make statements that are known to be deliberately untrue, and easily proven to be untrue by satellite images and media on the ground.

Western media should tag comments such as those above with "*unverified and contrary to western media and intelligence evidence" - "without providing evidence" is not strong enough.

 

[LittleG]

I wanted to simultaneously acknowledge your post with both the heart and sad emojis. The fact that women and children (non-combatants in clearly marked buildings) are being targeted by the Russians, and their military persist with this total bs:

View attachment 1350450

needs to be called out more.

Russian representatives should not be allowed a voice at all in any UN forum, as all they spout are complete lies and fabrications. Their UN ambassador and all "Kremlin representatives" make statements that are known to be deliberately untrue, and easily proven to be untrue by satellite images and media on the ground.

Western media should tag comments such as those above with "*unverified and contrary to western media and intelligence evidence" - "without providing evidence" is not strong enough.

We need a big “Fake News” red logo to be displayed.



Unfortunately this would then be adopted by Fox Entertainment network as their overlay of all events that aren’t news entertainment.

 

[D Mitchell]

Putin's looking the real loser but he might still end up winning at the peace talks. If he can walk away with an undertaking by Ukraine not to join NATO already signaled and the 2 rogue provinces joining Russia. In a year's time, when sanctions are withdrawn, Putin shows the Russian people the NATO threat disappearance and added Russian territory.

 

[LittleG]

Putin's looking the real loser but he might still end up winning at the peace talks. If he can walk away with an undertaking by Ukraine not to join NATO already signaled and the 2 rogue provinces joining Russia. In a year's time, when sanctions are withdrawn, Putin shows the Russian people the NATO threat disappearance and added Russian territory.

Ukraine knows that any treaty with Russia is meaningless. Ukraine gave up their nukes, to get a Russian guarantee that they wouldn’t invade. Russia then invaded anyway, this would be the second time since then.
Unless Russia uses chemical, nuclear or biological weapons, they will slowly lose the war. No point in Ukraine giving up things when Russia will lose more the longer this goes.

 

[stefcep]

Putin's looking the real loser but he might still end up winning at the peace talks. If he can walk away with an undertaking by Ukraine not to join NATO already signaled and the 2 rogue provinces joining Russia. In a year's time, when sanctions are withdrawn, Putin shows the Russian people the NATO threat disappearance and added Russian territory.

Ukraine not joining NATO has been something Russia has been demanding for over a decade. Why? Well, Moscow is 15 minutes by NATO fighter jet from the Ukraine border. By rocket even less.

Washington DC is 2.5 times the distance from the Cuban border as Moscow is from Ukraine. In 1962, when a sovereign nation namely Cuba, wanted Soviet warheads on its soil, the US was literally hours away from nuking Cuba and the 15 states of the Soviet Union. It didn't happen only because the Soviets turned back.

As for the "rogue" regions, the West cheered on the rogue region of Kosovo-ethnic Albanians on Serb soil demanding autonomy. It was apparently democracy in action. Same, same, but different.

 

[stefcep]

Ukraine knows that any treaty with Russia is meaningless. Ukraine gave up their nukes, to get a Russian guarantee that they wouldn’t invade. Russia then invaded anyway, this would be the second time since then.
Unless Russia uses chemical, nuclear or biological weapons, they will slowly lose the war. No point in Ukraine giving up things when Russia will lose more the longer this goes.

There is more to this than that.


It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.

So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

In fact, one outcome of the crisis is likely to be a closer alliance between China and Russia, as the US continues its anti-Chinese "pivot" to Asia.

 

[stefcep]

I wanted to simultaneously acknowledge your post with both the heart and sad emojis. The fact that women and children (non-combatants in clearly marked buildings) are being targeted by the Russians, and their military persist with this total bs:

View attachment 1350450

needs to be called out more.

Russian representatives should not be allowed a voice at all in any UN forum, as all they spout are complete lies and fabrications. Their UN ambassador and all "Kremlin representatives" make statements that are known to be deliberately untrue, and easily proven to be untrue by satellite images and media on the ground.

Western media should tag comments such as those above with "*unverified and contrary to western media and intelligence evidence" - "without providing evidence" is not strong enough.

Like when they did about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? A war where around 200,000 civilians were killed.

 

[footscray1973]

Like when they did about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? A war where around 200,000 civilians were killed.

I don't disagree with you, but that's a whole separate discussion. Bush, Blair, Howard and other western leaders were never properly held to account for that invasion.

 

[D Mitchell]

... In 1962, when a sovereign nation namely Cuba, wanted Soviet warheads on its soil, the US was literally hours away from nuking Cuba and the 15 states of the Soviet Union. It didn't happen only because the Soviets turned back.

...

Good morning, Stefcep

The US imposed a blockade on Soviet ships into Cuba in response to Krushchev's threat to arm Cuba with nuclear capable rockets. On 24 October 1962, the US Navy confronted Soviet ships bound for Cuba. Krushchev blinked. Kennedy, 45 years old, 2 years into his presidency and with a little over a year left to live, didn't. Had the fleet not turned back, who knows what would have happened. Your "the US was literally hours away from nuking Cuba and the 15 states of the Soviet Union." doesn't do anything like justice to what was at stake and what happened. Your knowledge of the Yugoslav wars of the 90s is far superior to mine although I'm aware that describing the Balkan troubles of the 90s as a Yugoslav war might offend at least some of the participants. I stand by my "rogue" adjective. It's fair enough when there's been effectively a civil war for 8 years and the sponsor and supplier of the 2 now the invader.

 

[D Mitchell]

Ukraine knows that any treaty with Russia is meaningless. Ukraine gave up their nukes, to get a Russian guarantee that they wouldn’t invade. Russia then invaded anyway, this would be the second time since then.
Unless Russia uses chemical, nuclear or biological weapons, they will slowly lose the war. No point in Ukraine giving up things when Russia will lose more the longer this goes.

A tough decision for the President of Ukraine, cede a promise not to join NATO in return for cessation of destruction of his country.

 

[Mofra]

There is more to this than that.


It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.

So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

In fact, one outcome of the crisis is likely to be a closer alliance between China and Russia, as the US continues its anti-Chinese "pivot" to Asia.

That's a very one-sided take and the article completely glosses over the Euromaiden protests.
The choice of Ukraine wanting closer ties with the west isn't one drummed up in the west, it's the will of the Ukrainian people. Zelenskyy is a democratically elected leader - and the idea that a Jewish Prime Minister (and his Jewish Presidential counterpart) are somehow fostering Nazis is simply ludicrous.

 

[D Mitchell]

There is more to this than that.


It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.

So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

In fact, one outcome of the crisis is likely to be a closer alliance between China and Russia, as the US continues its anti-Chinese "pivot" to Asia.

You should be very cautious when it comes to anything Milne writes involving the Soviet Union/Russia.

 

[stefcep]

That's a very one-sided take and the article completely glosses over the Euromaiden protests.
The choice of Ukraine wanting closer ties with the west isn't one drummed up in the west, it's the will of the Ukrainian people. Zelenskyy is a democratically elected leader - and the idea that a Jewish Prime Minister (and his Jewish Presidential counterpart) are somehow fostering Nazis is simply ludicrous.

Well I wouldn't say "one-sided". I would call it the other side. The one we don't read about.

The article is 7 years old BTW At the time the will of the Ukraine people was ignored as their elected government was over-thrown, and when armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown.

As for your last point:

US Senator John McCain dined with opposition leaders this weekend, including the extreme far-right Svoboda party.


During his trip the former US presidential candidate met with government and opposition figures, but gave his endorsement to the pro-Europe protesters.


Senator McCain later waved to protesters from the stage in Independence Square during a mass rally in Kiev, standing with Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the anti-Semitic Svoboda party.

The party was registered in 1995, initially called the Social National Party of Ukraine and using a swastika style logo.

Far-right group at heart of Ukraine protests meet US senator

Protests continue in the Ukrainian capital after an endorsement from US Senator John McCain but at the heart of the movement in Kiev lies an extreme right wing party with links to the BNP.

www.channel4.com

The narrative being pushed by the Western media is simplistic and ignores historical and political events that led to this war.

 

[stefcep]

You should be very cautious when it comes to anything Milne writes involving the Soviet Union/Russia.

Oh that's right. Ad hom anyone who won't share a narrative you don't share. Tell me what claims in the article are false?

 

[stefcep]

Good morning, Stefcep

The US imposed a blockade on Soviet ships into Cuba in response to Krushchev's threat to arm Cuba with nuclear capable rockets. On 24 October 1962, the US Navy confronted Soviet ships bound for Cuba. Krushchev blinked. Kennedy, 45 years old, 2 years into his presidency and with a little over a year left to live, didn't. Had the fleet not turned back, who knows what would have happened. Your "the US was literally hours away from nuking Cuba and the 15 states of the Soviet Union." doesn't do anything like justice to what was at stake and what happened. Your knowledge of the Yugoslav wars of the 90s is far superior to mine although I'm aware that describing the Balkan troubles of the 90s as a Yugoslav war might offend at least some of the participants. I stand by my "rogue" adjective. It's fair enough when there's been effectively a civil war for 8 years and the sponsor and supplier of the 2 now the invader.

Kennedy readied his nukes for launch. To this day, the US is still the only nation that has detonated nuclear weapons in an act of war. Given all that, yes Khruschev was embarassed. Better that then incinerate the world which was what Kennedy would have done.

If Ukraine enters NATO then Ukraine will have all of the military might of NATO at its disposal. NATO bases will be set up inside Ukraine. Possibly nukes as well. There is no way that Russian will accept that risk.

 

[Mofra]

The narrative being pushed by the Western media is simplistic and ignores historical and political events that led to this war.

The historical narrative is Soviet-era buffer state defence protocols, enacted by a ruthless, corrupt dictator.
None of which in any way justifies launching an attack on a neighbouring democracy.

The idea that 'other side' opinions hold equal weight is pure folly. Yes there are always opposing opinions,but sometimes they are poor ones.

I don't think the thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians really care about ensuring 'all sides' get a seat at the table of debate. The concept of Russian 'de-Nazification' of Ukraine is pure propaganda that, thankfully, most people can see through.

 

[Mofra]

If Ukraine enters NATO then Ukraine will have all of the military might of NATO at its disposal. NATO bases will be set up inside Ukraine. Possibly nukes as well. There is no way that Russian will accept that risk.

Ukraine had the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world and gave them up as part of the Treaty of Budapest in 1994, to which Russia signed as well.
Russia agreed to 'Respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine', which they have clearly breached.

Russia also shares borders with three NATO states - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

 

[stefcep]

The historical narrative is Soviet-era buffer state defence protocols, enacted by a ruthless, corrupt dictator.
None of which in any way justifies launching an attack on a neighbouring democracy.

The idea that 'other side' opinions hold equal weight is pure folly. Yes there are always opposing opinions,but sometimes they are poor ones.

I don't think the thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians really care about ensuring 'all sides' get a seat at the table of debate. The concept of Russian 'de-Nazification' of Ukraine is pure propaganda that, thankfully, most people can see through.

C'mon man. You can't see the hypocrisy of what you've just written? The West has been doing that for 70 years, and worse because its been bombing and killing the nations and their citizens that were nowhere near its borders. The list is too long to write. Two hundred thousand citizens dead in Iraq alone. What's your opinion of that?

Every war has a context. Russia's leaders didn't wake up one morning and say: "What the heck, lets invade Ukraine today and we'll blame it on the Nazi's". There's far more to this than the pro-Western media is telling. I don't support what is happening to the Ukraine people, but I don't for a minute believe their government is democratic anymore than I believe the Russians are there to oust the nazi's.

 

[Mofra]

C'mon man. You can't see the hypocrisy of what you've just written? The West has been doing that for 70 years, and worse because its been bombing and killing the nations and their citizens that were nowhere near its borders. The list is too long to write. Two hundred thousand citizens dead in Iraq alone. What's your opinion of that?

I was opposed to the war in Iraq.
Explain how is it hypocritical to oppose a US war, then oppose a Russian one?

I mean, seriously - are you actually arguing innocent civilians should die in Ukraine because innocent civilians died in Iraq? That's sounds psychopathic to me.

 

[stefcep]

Ukraine had the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world and gave them up as part of the Treaty of Budapest in 1994, to which Russia signed as well.
Russia agreed to 'Respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine', which they have clearly breached.

Russia also shares borders with three NATO states - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Ukraine sought military protection form the US as a condition of that treaty. This was refused by the US (because Russia would never have signed). Joining NATO is tantamount to the same thing. Hence why we are here.

Yes those Baltic nations are NATO members and have been since 2004. Nothing can be done about that now without all out war against NATO. Not so for Ukraine.