Opinion Get Clarko to The Hangar - 5 year deal done says Heppellfreak (post #334) - now with poll

[westking]

Messiah coaching hires generally don't work
Exhibits:
1. Blight to St Kilda (3 years removed from coaching flag at Adelaide)
2. Pagan to Carlton (2 years removed from coaching flag at NM)
3. Malthouse to Carlton (3 years from flag, and 18 months from GF at Pies)

The only one I can think of is Leigh Matthews to Brisbane for 2001-03 threepeat.

Alistair Clarkson is currently 7 years removed from his last grand final and premiership. Not too mention he coerced the Hawkes list management team to forgo a much required rebuild to top up for another run.

Clarkson isn't going anywhere without a level of control over the entire club, including controlling interest in the list management space. The reality is Hawthorn were at their best when Fagan and Mark Evans were around to tell Clarko to pull his head in. When they left he rode shotgun and pressured list management to strip the club of its young players and picks to top up on guys like Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard.

If he comes, he isn't wanting to develop a team sustainably. The long term plan of building will be traded in for experienced players on the market, and he isnt coming if Dodoro or Mahoney have the power to veto him in the draft/trade room.

It's not just the fact that 'messiah hires' don't tend to work, it's the whole package. The soft cap hit (he will be on $1+ at least), the short term vision when we have FINALLY resolved to the long term for the first time in 20 years, and the control he will likely demand in areas he should influence, but not have a controlling interest.

Clarkson is an all time coach, all-time list or not. Plenty of coaches have taken over premiership calibre lists and not got there (Lyon, Buckley, Rodney Eade multiple times) so credit where it is due.
But I would rather give Rutten the 4 years we promised when we took on this project. Let Norf or GWS hand the keys to the city over to him.

Messiah coaching hires generally don't work
Exhibits:
1. Blight to St Kilda (3 years removed from coaching flag at Adelaide)
2. Pagan to Carlton (2 years removed from coaching flag at NM)
3. Malthouse to Carlton (3 years from flag, and 18 months from GF at Pies)

The only one I can think of is Leigh Matthews to Brisbane for 2001-03 threepeat.

Alistair Clarkson is currently 7 years removed from his last grand final and premiership. Not too mention he coerced the Hawkes list management team to forgo a much required rebuild to top up for another run.

Clarkson isn't going anywhere without a level of control over the entire club, including controlling interest in the list management space. The reality is Hawthorn were at their best when Fagan and Mark Evans were around to tell Clarko to pull his head in. When they left he rode shotgun and pressured list management to strip the club of its young players and picks to top up on guys like Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard.

If he comes, he isn't wanting to develop a team sustainably. The long term plan of building will be traded in for experienced players on the market, and he isnt coming if Dodoro or Mahoney have the power to veto him in the draft/trade room.

It's not just the fact that 'messiah hires' don't tend to work, it's the whole package. The soft cap hit (he will be on $1+ at least), the short term vision when we have FINALLY resolved to the long term for the first time in 20 years, and the control he will likely demand in areas he should influence, but not have a controlling interest.

Clarkson is an all time coach, all-time list or not. Plenty of coaches have taken over premiership calibre lists and not got there (Lyon, Buckley, Rodney Eade multiple times) so credit where it is due.
But I would rather give Rutten the 4 years we promised when we took on this project. Let Norf or GWS hand the keys to the city over to him.

I hope those so called brainiacs on the board read this

 

[Duckworth]

Thank you mods for the poll.
Looking like about 80% don't want Clarko.

 

[TheGrizz]

It goes back full circle for me.

Why is he the coach? Why trust him with the rebuild? Because Xavier Campbell and Dan Richardson thought it was a good idea with a completely different list.

What separates good coaches from the rest of the guys biding time for the talent to catch is that they get buy in.

Releasing the shackles is cheating. It's the interim coach bounce. You then get stuck trying to convince the same players to do what they dont want to do.

He can't get them to do it.

Bomber was coach for 7 years before winning a flag at Geelong and was almost sacked twice.
How many near sackings, attempted board upheavals and failed on field iterations did Richmond go through under Hardwick before it clicked in 2017?

The fact the game plan didn't click in the first iteration doesn't mean there wasn't buy in, it means the players didn't grasp it.

The transition from selfish defending to working as a team and buying into team first was going to take time, as was anything with 20 years of inertia (which our selfish, stat chasing, defensive liability culture has).
We knew this was a long haul when the players we had leave in 2020 left, it's about time we stuck to a plan without blinking for the first time in 20 years, at least in my opinion.

 

[Lore]

Thank you mods for the poll.
Looking like about 80% don't want Clarko.

Wasn’t sure which question you wanted to ask so figured we might as well ask all of them at once :/

Results are kind of interesting actually, there’s want but don’t think we should, should but don’t think we will, don’t want but think we will anyway…

 

[TheGrizz]

Wasn’t sure which question you wanted to ask so figured we might as well ask all of them at once :/

Results are kind of interesting actually, there’s want but don’t think we should, should but don’t think we will, don’t want but think we will anyway…

So essentially, regardless of whatever anyone thinks is the right choice, they don't trust the club to make it haha

 

[Lore]

So essentially, regardless of whatever anyone thinks is the right choice, they don't trust the club to make it haha

Precisely! What a place to be

 

[yodellinhank]

So essentially, regardless of whatever anyone thinks is the right choice, they don't trust the club to make it haha

 

[BrunoV]

Messiah coaching hires generally don't work
Exhibits:
1. Blight to St Kilda (3 years removed from coaching flag at Adelaide)
2. Pagan to Carlton (2 years removed from coaching flag at NM)
3. Malthouse to Carlton (3 years from flag, and 18 months from GF at Pies)

The only one I can think of is Leigh Matthews to Brisbane for 2001-03 threepeat.

Alistair Clarkson is currently 7 years removed from his last grand final and premiership. Not too mention he coerced the Hawkes list management team to forgo a much required rebuild to top up for another run.

Clarkson isn't going anywhere without a level of control over the entire club, including controlling interest in the list management space. The reality is Hawthorn were at their best when Fagan and Mark Evans were around to tell Clarko to pull his head in. When they left he rode shotgun and pressured list management to strip the club of its young players and picks to top up on guys like Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard.

If he comes, he isn't wanting to develop a team sustainably. The long term plan of building will be traded in for experienced players on the market, and he isnt coming if Dodoro or Mahoney have the power to veto him in the draft/trade room.

It's not just the fact that 'messiah hires' don't tend to work, it's the whole package. The soft cap hit (he will be on $1m+ at least), the short term vision when we have FINALLY resolved to the long term for the first time in 20 years, and the control he will likely demand in areas he should influence, but not have a controlling interest.

Clarkson is an all time coach, all-time list or not. Plenty of coaches have taken over premiership calibre lists and not got there (Lyon, Buckley, Rodney Eade multiple times) so credit where it is due.
But I would rather give Rutten the 4 years we promised when we took on this project. Let Norf or GWS hand the keys to the city over to him.

You've cited messiah complex cases which at least at Carlton took over bad lists that were either at rock bottom or about to hit.

Blight was talked out of retirement by money. He was barely interested. That's not Clakson.

Pagan had a rubbish list the rebuild of which was crippled by draft sanction.

Malthouse took over a rubbish list which had peaked and had that bozo list manager that was surprised when all the player he liked in the first round in 2014 were still available later in the draft.

We're not bringing the messiah in under false pretences, because the rebuild is already well under way. That's an important start.

The hardest part, waiting out the really unproductive years of Draper, Jones, Bryan, Cox, Reid, Eyre and Brand, is largely complete.

Caldwell, Perkins and Hobbs are all considered blue chip first round picks who will assume control of the midfield rotation, likely as early as next year. Martin is a gun off a wing and is 21. Massimo looks a gun 19 year old.

24 to 26yo / 100 game core of Ridley, Laverde, Redman, Parish, Snelling, McGrath, Wright and Langford.

Top 5 or 6 pick probably plus Davey at the end of the year. Trade and FA possibilities.

The list needs work, absolutely, but the general profile is good. That means the messiah is not coming to work miracles, which is what usually gets him trouble, he's coming to do the thing which worked first time around, which is to develop a list or to finish developing a list.

I accept that Calrkson could go wrong because the pressure/expectation takes on a life of its own. That is a risk but it's up to the club to manage that risk.

He doesn't get control of anything other than coaching the list, for a start. If he doesn't want to fit in he is the wrong guy.

 

[FlyingV]

I remember Merrett saying what’s most important to him is having consistency. Having a coaching staff, playing group for an extended period time ie: Richmond and Hardwick, Melbourne and Goodwin.
If we chop it around again and then don’t have immediate success the wheels could fall off again.

 

[faible]

The club should be pursuing Clarkson. He is a great coach. Only revisionist history says otherwise.

He was a great coach.

We don't know if he still is a great coach.

 

[faible]

It goes back full circle for me.

Why is he the coach? Why trust him with the rebuild? Because Xavier Campbell and Dan Richardson thought it was a good idea with a completely different list.

What separates good coaches from the rest of the guys biding time for the talent to catch is that they get buy in.

Releasing the shackles is cheating. It's the interim coach bounce. You then get stuck trying to convince the same players to do what they dont want to do.

He can't get them to do it.

Who says Rutten has released the shackles?

The players are playing differently; building up slower from defence then pulling the trigger going forward isn't releasing the shackles, playing Caldwell as an accountable, defensive midfielder isn't releasing the shackles, conceding lower scores isn't releasing the shackles.

There's little to indicate the shackles have been released, there's a lot to indicate your football analysis needs more work than Parish's defensive running.

 

[P Money]

If the rumours that Clarko is keen on coaching the Bombers is true (big IF in my book), the one thing we can all agree on is that it's a massive decision for the club, and probably an unenviable one.

Scenario 1: We sign Clarko and three/four years later we're a middle of the road team making up the numbers getting smashed in the finals we make every second year - Why did you turf a promising 2nd-year coach in the middle of a rebuild who was building a strong culture and had the buy-in of the players to bring in a 'messiah' that was never going to work out? What a classic Essendon thing to do.

Scenario 2: We stick with Rutten and three/four years later we're a middle of the road team making up the numbers getting smashed in the finals we make every second year, meanwhile Clarko takes Nth Melbourne to the top 4 - Why would you miss the chance to sign the most highly-credentialed successful coach of the modern era who actually wants to come to you, and instead stick with some unproven young coach who has achieved nothing? What a classic Essendon thing to do.

 

[faible]

If the rumours that Clarko is keen on coaching the Bombers is true (big IF in my book), the one thing we can all agree on is that it's a massive decision for the club, and probably an unenviable one.

Scenario 1: We sign Clarko and three/four years later we're a middle of the road team making up the numbers getting smashed in the finals we make every second year - Why did you turf a promising 2nd-year coach in the middle of a rebuild who was building a strong culture and had the buy-in of the players to bring in a 'messiah' that was never going to work out? What a classic Essendon thing to do.

Scenario 2: We stick with Rutten and three/four years later we're a middle of the road team making up the numbers getting smashed in the finals we make every second year, meanwhile Clarko takes Nth Melbourne to the top 4 - Why would you miss the chance to sign the most highly-credentialed successful coach of the modern era who actually wants to come to you, and instead stick with some unproven young coach who has achieved nothing? What a classic Essendon thing to do.

Sticking with a decision is very un-Essendon.

Turfing Rutten to hire the big-name Clarkson is quite on-brand for us over the past two decades.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Sticking with a decision is very un-Essendon.

Turfing Rutten to hire the big-name Clarkson is quite on-brand for us over the past two decades.

You reckon? I'd almost say the opposite. We got comfortable with Woosh and extended him on the back of middling results. That was very Essendon.

Sacking Rutten and pursuing Clarko would take balls, and that is un-Essendon - which is why it won't happen.

 

[NAB777]

View attachment 1463352

Fantastic to see Michelle Pfeiffer's little sister FINALLY get a mention on this forum!

 

[faible]

You reckon? I'd almost say the opposite. We stuck with Woosh and extended him on the back of middling results. That was very Essendon.

Sacking Rutten and pursuing Clarko would take balls, and that is un-Essendon - which is why it won't happen.

Sacking Rutten to hire Clarkson will increase memberships for 2023.

Very Essendon.

 

[eth-dog]

Dumping a rookie coach 2 years into a rebuild becauseClarkson is available is a completely on point Essendon move.

 

[TheGrizz]

You reckon? I'd almost say the opposite. We got comfortable with Woosh and extended him on the back of middling results. That was very Essendon.

Sacking Rutten and pursuing Clarko would take balls, and that is un-Essendon - which is why it won't happen.

Like turfing Knights 6 months after resigning him for 2 years to sign Hird?
That kind of balls?

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Sacking Rutten to hire Clarkson will increase memberships for 2023.

Very Essendon.

It would for sure. It'd attract more talent from other clubs, attract more fans/members, bigger attendances, yield better on and off field results.

Wait why are we sticking with Truck again?

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Like turfing Knights 6 months after resigning him for 2 years to sign Hird?
That kind of balls?

And funnily enough that decision lead to the only period we've looked half decent in the last 20 years.

 

[faible]

It would for sure. It'd attract more talent from other clubs, attract more fans/members, bigger attendances, yield better on and off field results.

Wait why are we sticking with Truck again?

Because the only actual likely outcome is a short term bump in membership and attendance, then a regression to the mean once they realise we aren't getting more talented players, or better on or off field results.

From memory the 'Clarko attracts talented players' thing didn't really hold up in reality either...

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Because the only actual likely outcome is a short term bump in membership and attendance, then a regression to the mean once they realise we aren't getting more talented players, or better on or off field results.

From memory the 'Clarko attracts talented players' thing didn't really hold up in reality either...

Why is that the only likely outcome?

 

[TheGrizz]

And funnily enough that decision lead to the only period we've looked half decent in the last 20 years.

And the darkest period in the clubs history

 

[Schnitzengruben]

And the darkest period in the clubs history

True but the drug saga is a seperate issue. Hird was actually the right move and a good coach.

 

[faible]

Why is that the only likely outcome?

20 years of short-term decisions have all lead to the same outcome?

Brief bump in membership and attendance, remaining a mid-table side, regression in membership and attendance when short-term decision doesn't work, rinse and repeat.