List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion 2023

[swoop42]

While he hasn't yet fully cemented himself in the 23 given we went out and targeted Frampton to be that 2nd genuine key defender behind Moore just last year I'm not even sure if we'd have any genuine interest in McKay now would we given he'll demand a fair chunk of change. You could make the same argument for Himmelberg also I guess albeit he has greater scope at either end of ground and is seen as more durable.

While McKay would certainly increase the quality of our KP depth, it's a fine balancing act between having depth in a specialist position you can call upon and depth that decides it wants out because it's not getting the senior opportunity it craves. Jarrod Witts

28

Jarrod Witts

Age

32

Ht

209cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

5.8

4star

CL

3.3

5star

HO

31.8

5star

D

10.8

3star

K

5.9

2star

HB

4.9

3star

CL

3.4

4star

HO

29.5

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

3.6

3star

CL

0.4

3star

HO

8.0

5star

is the perfect example of that.

Get McKay and you're pretty much consigning Frampton or a Murphy to the VFL waiting room next season hoping for an injury and/or requiring them to play a different role. Get a Himmelberg and the position in the side of one of our current tall forwards as well as the defenders could be under threat.

I guess that's the cutthroat nature of football but don't expect every player to be comfortable twiddling their thumbs in the reserves most weeks.

 

[Apex36]

This may be from some dodgy twitter account.

Scout on Extreme Black N White mentioned earlier this year that we're interested in Parish but nothing serious at that point in time.

Whether interested means - if he's keen and available vs we're calling his manager fortnightly

I think it was confirmed earlier in this thread that it was indeed, from a dodgy Twitter account, namely old mate Piesource’s Twitter account. So just assume it’s completely fabricated tbh.

 

[sr36]

While he hasn't yet fully cemented himself in the 23 given we went out and targeted Frampton to be that 2nd genuine key defender behind Moore just last year I'm not even sure if we'd have any genuine interest in McKay now would we given he'll demand a fair chunk of change. You could make the same argument for Himmelberg also I guess albeit he has greater scope at either end of ground and is seen as more durable.

While McKay would certainly increase the quality of our KP depth, it's a fine balancing act between having depth in a specialist position you can call upon and depth that decides it wants out because it's not getting the senior opportunity it craves. Jarrod Witts is the perfect example of that.

Get McKay and you're pretty much consigning Frampton or a Murphy to the VFL waiting room next season hoping for an injury and/or requiring them to play a different role. Get a Himmelberg and the position in the side of one of our current tall forwards as well as the defenders could be under threat.

I guess that's the cutthroat nature of football but don't expect every player to be comfortable twiddling their thumbs in the reserves most weeks.

I tend to think our depth in talls is fine - despite having a terrible injury run this year. We need some tall kids to develop - a top liner would be nice though- surely Weitering wants out of Carlton?

 

[Johno9911]

Is Ben McKay any good or is it that his brother is and he looks exactly like him?

Call it the De Koning effect.

A friend of mine who goes for North (poor thing) I think summed up Ben McKay really well - as a Robin to a Batman type defender. Next to a Darcy Moore or Steven May, McKay would would look fantastic with his ability to cut across and intercept, or come as the third to a contest. He has the size and strength to wrestle the number 1 key forward for a period of time, but isn't the rock solid man that you want to send to a Lynch type for a full game without assistance.

For me that makes a lot of sense, when you watch him atm he's forced to play as almost both a number 1 and 2 defender role, where he has to pick up the dominant key forward, but he's also their best intercept defender and often gets caught between the 2 roles. I think he would thrive as a player with a genuine number 1 KPD in the back half with him, especially someone like a Darcy who can lead and direct him, and then players like Maynard and Howe getting across to assist.

Having said that, I think for the price North would have on his head - or the salary it would command to get a compo pick north would accept, wouldn't be worth it. We have a genuine gun KPD in Darcy so to shell out for a guy that's essentially a number 2 we'd be better off looking for another Frampton (who I think has been fine as a KPD) value type deal, I personally like Lewis Melican from Sydney and I'm sure there are other cheaper options for us to target that can play the number 2 KPD role next to Darcy compared to the more expensive McKay.

 

[Scodog10]

I tend to think our depth in talls is fine - despite having a terrible injury run this year. We need some tall kids to develop - a top liner would be nice though- surely Weitering wants out of Carlton?

IDK about the depth. Another head knock to Murphy would be concerning even then he’s undersized and Dean is a complete unknown. The cupboards empty after that.

Weitering just needs a shrink to get past being scammed and he’s close to league best by role. His kicking in 2023

Barrass is the other.

 

[swoop42]

A friend of mine who goes for North (poor thing) I think summed up Ben McKay really well - as a Robin to a Batman type defender. Next to a Darcy Moore or Steven May, McKay would would look fantastic with his ability to cut across and intercept, or come as the third to a contest. He has the size and strength to wrestle the number 1 key forward for a period of time, but isn't the rock solid man that you want to send to a Lynch type for a full game without assistance.

For me that makes a lot of sense, when you watch him atm he's forced to play as almost both a number 1 and 2 defender role, where he has to pick up the dominant key forward, but he's also their best intercept defender and often gets caught between the 2 roles. I think he would thrive as a player with a genuine number 1 KPD in the back half with him, especially someone like a Darcy who can lead and direct him, and then players like Maynard and Howe getting across to assist.

Having said that, I think for the price North would have on his head - or the salary it would command to get a compo pick north would accept, wouldn't be worth it. We have a genuine gun KPD in Darcy so to shell out for a guy that's essentially a number 2 we'd be better off looking for another Frampton (who I think has been fine as a KPD) value type deal, I personally like Lewis Melican from Sydney and I'm sure there are other cheaper options for us to target that can play the number 2 KPD role next to Darcy compared to the more expensive McKay.

Thanks for your input.

While he may well not be as good (though seemingly more versatile) than McKay don't you think that with Frampton we already went out and got that low cost mature aged No.2 key defender last year to support Darcy and Murphy?

If (and it's a big if I know) Dean can finally overcome his foot issues next season (I assume he'll be retained) he alongside Howe and potentially a break glass option like Kreuger (another if given his injury history) it's enough tall defensive depth for the immediate term in 2024?

At the end of the day if we can land one of McKay, Himmelberg or Parish I won't be complaining as it value adds to the list and provides another option (selection headache) for our 23.

I'm probably leaning towards Parish if I had to choose one given the age profile of our midfield group but it's hard to see him leaving Essendon now given their improvement under Scott IMHO.

 

[legendstatus]

Thanks for your input.

While he may well not be as good (though seemingly more versatile) than McKay don't you think that with Frampton we already went out and got that low cost mature aged No.2 key defender last year to support Darcy and Murphy?

If (and it's a big if I know) Dean can finally overcome his foot issues next season (I assume he'll be retained) he alongside Howe and potentially a break glass option like Kreuger (another if given his injury history) it's enough tall defensive depth for the immediate term in 2024?

At the end of the day if we can land one of McKay, Himmelberg or Parish I won't be complaining as it value adds to the list and provides another option (selection headache) for our 23.

I'm probably leaning towards Parish if I had to choose one given the age profile of our midfield group but it's hard to see him leaving Essendon now given their improvement under Scott IMHO.

HH for me

 

[Doc1763]

HH for me

we already got one

 

[LuckyLee]

I’ve watched a lot of GWS games in Canberra and Himmelberg is a really good player. Equally good at both ends of the ground. If he played for a Victorian club, we’d all rate him much more highly. I’d be very happy to see him in the black and white.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Quicky]

I’ve watched a lot of GWS games in Canberra and Himmelberg is a really good player. Equally good at both ends of the ground. If he played for a Victorian club, we’d all rate him much more highly. I’d be very happy to see him in the black and white.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

How much do you think Himmelberg is worth per year?

 

[stormskye]

How much do you think Himmelberg is worth per year?

I’d offer him a mcstay contract. No more. 5 year deal takes him to 32. I think GWS have offered him 5 years, the $ is the question.

 

[legendstatus]

we already got one

 

[JuniorB]

we already got one

 

[Doc1763]

LOL, yes!!! great scene

 

[sr36]

IDK about the depth. Another head knock to Murphy would be concerning even then he’s undersized and Dean is a complete unknown. The cupboards empty after that.

In terms of depth - 4 senior guys + Dean + a surplus forward could go back if necessary. I'd be looking at adding a kid or top shelf.

 

[sr36]

No, but it was good they were going against someone closer to their age bracket rather than being smashed by a 30 year old.

I agree with you. I think it's one thing clubs do wrong in terms of development. They draft these young rucks and then just throw them to the wolves to get smashed by huge blokes. Train them up in their ruckwork and give them short stints in there. But play them in other roles and have a VFL brute carry the load, until they're physically ready.

 

[Fat Jesus]

How much do you think Himmelberg is worth per year?

$600K

 

[Mollythedolly]

From what I've read, it seems there depth at the key talls in this year's draft. Which I feel gives us more flexibility in the group of targets we should look at.

Drafting and developing key positions would allow us to look at players like Ben Brown, Nathan Broad, Jack Darling and Tom McDonald who can still offer us a lot at afl level, allow us to continue pushing for a flag for the next couple of years, still be cheaper than a McKay of King option.

Disagree on these types. Would be a backward step in my view.

 

[Scodog10]

In terms of depth - 4 senior guys + Dean + a surplus forward could go back if necessary. I'd be looking at adding a kid or top shelf.

Who are the 4 senior KPD’s? We’re planning for GF day v Brisbane or Geelong or Port etc. I’ve got 2.5. Moore, Frampton and the undersized Murphy which is borderline adequate, but vulnerable. I think 4 + the kid (Dean) is the sweet spot. The joker in the pack is Kreuger because I don’t see a pathway to him cracking it as a KPF, but 2023 might be the last days of summer for Cox so who knows.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Is Ratugolea still avaliable I would be targeting him before HH or McKay. He may just say that its between Port and Geelong but you never know.

 

[sr36]

Who are the 4 senior KPD’s? We’re planning for GF day v Brisbane or Geelong or Port etc. I’ve got 2.5. Moore, Frampton and the undersized Murphy which is borderline adequate, but vulnerable. I think 4 + the kid (Dean) is the sweet spot. The joker in the pack is Kreuger because I don’t see a pathway to him cracking it as a KPF, but 2023 might be the last days of summer for Cox so who knows.

Howe.

 

[Scodog10]

Howe.

No. We aren’t making list management decisions for 2024 onwards with Howe in mind as a KPD. Sure if we’re hopping into our DeLorean and partying like it’s 2018 I’m bringing us up from 2.5 to 3 KPD’s, but at the back end of 2024 I’m not looking at our 34yo tweener with an injury history that’s robbed him of two full seasons out of the past three and a half as a KPD.

Edit: for context the .5 is how I view their ability to fill the role. A 1 is someone that can play a KPD role regardless of other factors like pressure on the ball carrier and support from others. A .5 is a guy that can play a KPD role, but it’s reliant on a chop out. Murphy v Larkey is fine if there’s numbers at contests, it’s scrubby ball, Moore has a favourable matchup, there’s limited flow etc. Goldsack v Kennedy GF 2018 is what comes to mind if we’re taking Howe or Murphy in as a KPD…

 

[Quicky]

$600K

That's about right. I can't see Himmelberg leaving for that though.

 

[Quicky]

In terms of depth - 4 senior guys + Dean + a surplus forward could go back if necessary. I'd be looking at adding a kid or top shelf.

I disagree with this. We are really thin at the back for talls. Moore, Frampton, Dean as KP. Murphy and Howe as mediums who can step up. When you think of Howe, Murphy and Deans injury issues that is really thin. Dean is also an unknown quantity really.

I still wonder if they'd consider McStay as a defender? I wouldn't mind pivoting on him, get input from him in another area of the ground. If we can find an alternative up forward.

 

[manicpie]

I disagree with this. We are really thin at the back for talls. Moore, Frampton, Dean as KP. Murphy and Howe as mediums who can step up. When you think of Howe, Murphy and Deans injury issues that is really thin. Dean is also an unknown quantity really.

I still wonder if they'd consider McStay as a defender? I wouldn't mind pivoting on him, get input from him in another area of the ground. If we can find an alternative up forward.

The way Mcstay moves I doubt he would be a good defender. He's a plodder who can't even get separation when forward.