List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion 2023

[stormskye]

I disagree with this. We are really thin at the back for talls. Moore, Frampton, Dean as KP. Murphy and Howe as mediums who can step up. When you think of Howe, Murphy and Deans injury issues that is really thin. Dean is also an unknown quantity really.

I still wonder if they'd consider McStay as a defender? I wouldn't mind pivoting on him, get input from him in another area of the ground. If we can find an alternative up forward.

Outside of kids there’s only so much depth you can have otherwise players stick in vfl look elsewhere. It’s a tough balancing act. How many KPD can we have on the list? If we get say, HH. Who goes out for him? Murphy? He’s too good for vfl. He’d seek a trade. Maybe frampton to ruck in that case I don’t know but this is the dilemma of depth. AFL quality players stuck in vfl will leave. We need a couple of developing kids IMO, that won’t leave for opportunity BUT are there as break glass emergencies.

A caveat to this is Maynard has proven to be more than capable of handling KPP in the Cameron mould . Not the Dixon or Hawkins types, but he can play tall when required

 

[sr36]

No. We aren’t making list management decisions for 2024 onwards with Howe in mind as a KPD. Sure if we’re hopping into our DeLorean and partying like it’s 2018 I’m bringing us up from 2.5 to 3 KPD’s, but at the back end of 2024 I’m not looking at our 34yo tweener with an injury history that’s robbed him of two full seasons out of the past three and a half as a KPD.

Edit: for context the .5 is how I view their ability to fill the role. A 1 is someone that can play a KPD role regardless of other factors like pressure on the ball carrier and support from others. A .5 is a guy that can play a KPD role, but it’s reliant on a chop out. Murphy v Larkey is fine if there’s numbers at contests, it’s scrubby ball, Moore has a favourable matchup, there’s limited flow etc. Goldsack v Kennedy GF 2018 is what comes to mind if we’re taking Howe or Murphy in as a KPD…

My view is the way we defend the ground. Those guys can play kpd. If we can't maintain pressure, forget about the talls. It's the speedster forwards and the blokes streaming into forward 50 who will cut us up uncontested.

And in terms of Howe, while he's still on the list, you've got to factor him in. The amount stars get paid, you can't afford to have well paid depth - be it him or a mid range player who gets left out. So for me I'd only look at a kid or a star, or a base pay more experienced guy

 

[swoop42]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that a McKay or Himmelberg wouldn't strengthen our list and depth in the KP area but with a limit put on team, list and salary cap size you have to constantly evaluate what areas you'll need to prioritize ahead of others during a season.

Good chance we're after both a KPP and a mid among a few options we're considering but ultimately who expresses a desire to play for Collingwood and importantly is also realistically obtainable (and affordable) will play a greater role in who we could acquire more than any major preference of player A over B, C or D.

Best case scenario for me is that we improve our list for the short term via F/A (with no cost in trade) and retain our first two selections in the draft to invest in our future.

Wishful thinking perhaps but only time will tell.

 

[Scodog10]

My view is the way we defend the ground. Those guys can play kpd. If we can't maintain pressure, forget about the talls. It's the speedster forwards and the blokes streaming into forward 50 who will cut us up.

And in terms of Howe, while he's still on the list, you've got to factor him in. The amount stars get paid, you can't afford to have well paid depth - be it him or a mid range player who gets left out. So for me I'd only look at a kid or a star, or a base pay more experienced guy

I agree they can, but they aren’t comparable to an actual KPD. Pound for pound Moore v Daniher against Murphy v Daniher is going to result in a different outcome.

I’m taking Howe into account for 2024 just not as a KPD. I would anticipate that Wright is half way decent at his job meaning none of Howe, Frampton or Murphy are well paid in 2024 (Murphy could get there for 2025, but I’m confident he signed for next year before establishing himself). For arguments sake we bring in HH there’s nothing preventing us from using Moore, HH, Murphy and Howe in defense, Frampton as 1st ruck and Cameron as a fwd ruck. That squeezes out Cox for HH and Markov for Howe from Monday’s 23 with one of those small forwards as sub. Neither Cox or Markov is well paid depth. Even then if it’s HH for Frampton I’m not gnashing my teeth over Frampton’s salary in the VFL.

I’ll come along on a discussion on what a good list structure looks like or who might fit well within that structure because it makes sense in my mind to have 4 + 1 developing or 3 and Murphy with some quality, but it’s a no to any POV that includes Howe as a KPD.

 

[sr36]

I agree they can, but they aren’t comparable to an actual KPD. Pound for pound Moore v Daniher against Murphy v Daniher is going to result in a different outcome.

I’m taking Howe into account for 2024 just not as a KPD. I would anticipate that Wright is half way decent at his job meaning none of Howe, Frampton or Murphy are well paid in 2024 (Murphy could get there for 2025, but I’m confident he signed for next year before establishing himself). For arguments sake we bring in HH there’s nothing preventing us from using Moore, HH, Murphy and Howe in defense, Frampton as 1st ruck and Cameron as a fwd ruck. That squeezes out Cox for HH and Markov for Howe from Monday’s 23 with one of those small forwards as sub. Neither Cox or Markov is well paid depth. Even then if it’s HH for Frampton I’m not gnashing my teeth over Frampton’s salary in the VFL.

I’ll come along on a discussion on what a good list structure looks like or who might fit well within that structure because it makes sense in my mind to have 4 + 1 developing or 3 and Murphy with some quality, but it’s a no to any POV that includes Howe as a KPD.

We're just going to have to disagree on Howe. If his arm is OK, I think he'll finish 2023 as CHB in the Premiership team and spend 2024 as CHB in the reigning Premiers.

 

[brysie]

Thanks for your input.

While he may well not be as good (though seemingly more versatile) than McKay don't you think that with Frampton we already went out and got that low cost mature aged No.2 key defender last year to support Darcy and Murphy?

If (and it's a big if I know) Dean can finally overcome his foot issues next season (I assume he'll be retained) he alongside Howe and potentially a break glass option like Kreuger (another if given his injury history) it's enough tall defensive depth for the immediate term in 2024?

At the end of the day if we can land one of McKay, Himmelberg or Parish I won't be complaining as it value adds to the list and provides another option (selection headache) for our 23.

I'm probably leaning towards Parish if I had to choose one given the age profile of our midfield group but it's hard to see him leaving Essendon now given their improvement under Scott IMHO.

Kreuger is the glass ...

I tend to agree that out of all the free agents we've been linked to, Parish would be the one who fills the greatest future need. I'm really not sold on McKay for the reason you outlined above, and think that if we were to look at another KPD, Melican from Sydney would provide that budget option that doesn't chew up too much of the salary cap.

Twomey has reported recently (yesterday I think) that Parish has now opened contract talks with Essendon. Hopefully more updates are provided across the next month or so; a quick negotiation probably favours retention, however if it drags it usually suggests that a player has had their head turned. Let's hope for the latter.

 

[KinderSmock]

From the Port Board:

"Can confirm today, that from a source Collingwood are right in the hunt for Essendon Restricted Free Agent Darcy Parish. Pies are looking to top up on mature ages while they can develop younger types. Pies have also had conversations with Ben McKays management."

It's very well known we're targeting Parish and have been on the pursuit for over a year.

I see McKay landing at Sydney or Port who are more aggressive in that space. He'll leave North, though.

 

[KinderSmock]

PIES TO TARGET 'ONE OR TWO'​

Giant to wait, Docker talks on hold, salary moves discussed

Check out all the latest trade news from around the League

www.afl.com.au

Ryan and Allan might not have debuted, but they're two for the future.

 

[KinderSmock]

No. We aren’t making list management decisions for 2024 onwards with Howe in mind as a KPD. Sure if we’re hopping into our DeLorean and partying like it’s 2018 I’m bringing us up from 2.5 to 3 KPD’s, but at the back end of 2024 I’m not looking at our 34yo tweener with an injury history that’s robbed him of two full seasons out of the past three and a half as a KPD.

Edit: for context the .5 is how I view their ability to fill the role. A 1 is someone that can play a KPD role regardless of other factors like pressure on the ball carrier and support from others. A .5 is a guy that can play a KPD role, but it’s reliant on a chop out. Murphy v Larkey is fine if there’s numbers at contests, it’s scrubby ball, Moore has a favourable matchup, there’s limited flow etc. Goldsack v Kennedy GF 2018 is what comes to mind if we’re taking Howe or Murphy in as a KPD…

Howe for Johnson in the forward line? Given Howe has the hands and leap of Johnson and was originally a forward?

AJ goes missing all too often in games. I know he's a young forward and that happens but if the heat is on Ginnivan, it should be on AJ, too. Surely we won't offer him a big contract should he re-sign. If he wants money, he can leave.

 

[Scodog10]

We're just going to have to disagree on Howe. If his arm is OK, I think he'll finish 2023 as CHB in the Premiership team and spend 2024 as CHB in the reigning Premiers.

If I start nitpicking about who plays what role in a premiership team there’s something wrong with me.

FWIW pending that arm being right the conjecture on here about his place in the best 22 doesn’t sit well with me. With how we defend the ground he’s as important to us as Stewart is to Geelong (he’s having a horrid season) I just don’t see him as KP.

 

[sr36]

FWIW pending that arm being right the conjecture on here about his place in the best 22 doesn’t sit well with me. With how we defend the ground he’s as important to us as Stewart is to Geelong (he’s having a horrid season) I just don’t see him as KP.

To me, it's as simple as with Frampton and Murphy both in the team, we'll be in trouble, as we'll be forced to go long down the line too often to get out of defence. And I don't think we can win the flag that way. Howe's extra dash and willingness to hit 45 degree passes or take aggressive switches changes that. And I don't think his lesser height comes close to covering that. Because he plays a lot taller than he is defensively and intercepts better than either of them as well.

 

[Jen2310]

What a shame.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

The “scary consideration” that comes with Collingwood’s reported interest in Himmelberg

The Magpies have been linked.

www.sen.com.au

 

[stormskye]

The “scary consideration” that comes with Collingwood’s reported interest in Himmelberg

The Magpies have been linked.

www.sen.com.au

Up to 900k? I’ll pass thanks

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Up to 900k? I’ll pass thanks

No one believes what a journo says about salary. They wouldn't have a clue. And there's no way Wright would spend the past few years sorting our salary cap out to then fk it up on one player.

Not to mention the article says clubs like Cats (& now Pies) don't need to offer as much because players want to play there for less.

 

[stormskye]

No one believes what a journo says about salary. They wouldn't have a clue. And there's no way Wright would spend the past few years sorting our salary cap out to then fk it up on one player.

Not to mention the article says clubs like Cats (& now Pies) don't need to offer as much because players want to play there for less.

Ain’t no way any team is offering HH 900k. If they do, Goodluck to them… reminds me of a similar contract..

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Ain’t no way any team is offering HH 900k. If they do, Goodluck to them…

Exactly. Journo's just pluck any figure out of thin air to make the story more dramatic.

 

[Quicky]

The way Mcstay moves I doubt he would be a good defender. He's a plodder who can't even get separation when forward.

I would have said the same about Roughead and Dunn but they went okay.

 

[Scodog10]

Up to 900k? I’ll pass thanks

The key points to that specific part of the article is citing “the Age” and the word could. He’s only looking at $800k+ if it’s Richmond.

 

[No SPIN]

Who are the 4 senior KPD’s? We’re planning for GF day v Brisbane or Geelong or Port etc. I’ve got 2.5. Moore, Frampton and the undersized Murphy which is borderline adequate, but vulnerable. I think 4 + the kid (Dean) is the sweet spot. The joker in the pack is Kreuger because I don’t see a pathway to him cracking it as a KPF, but 2023 might be the last days of summer for Cox so who knows.

Why do we need 4 KPD for Geel and BNE. Who are the 4 KPF we need to cover in each case?

 

[manicpie]

I would have said the same about Roughead and Dunn but they went okay.

It's worth a try I suppose but those 2 players were a bit more advanced in being a defenders, actually both were already good

 

[stormskye]

The key points to that specific part of the article is citing “the Age” and the word could. He’s only looking at $800k+ if it’s Richmond.

Still way to much for me. He’s not Moore or May.

 

[No SPIN]

IDK about the depth. Another head knock to Murphy would be concerning even then he’s undersized and Dean is a complete unknown. The cupboards empty after that.

Weitering just needs a shrink to get past being scammed and he’s close to league best by role. His kicking in 2023

Barrass is the other.

No confidence in Ruscoe?
He hasn't looked out of place in his most recent stint in the seniors.

 

[Copeland]

He's only just started running. Won't see anything from him until next year.

Was he on the LTI list and replaced? We could've picked Jack Buller if we had a pick in the MSD.

 

[MooreDaicos]

Outside of kids there’s only so much depth you can have otherwise players stick in vfl look elsewhere. It’s a tough balancing act. How many KPD can we have on the list? If we get say, HH. Who goes out for him? Murphy? He’s too good for vfl. He’d seek a trade. Maybe frampton to ruck in that case I don’t know but this is the dilemma of depth. AFL quality players stuck in vfl will leave. We need a couple of developing kids IMO, that won’t leave for opportunity BUT are there as break glass emergencies.

A caveat to this is Maynard has proven to be more than capable of handling KPP in the Cameron mould . Not the Dixon or Hawkins types, but he can play tall when required

Maynard to midfield imo then we have HH, Moore, Frampton, IQ, Pendles (next year only, probably) Murphy. Noble/Markov on bench. Or Frampton to ruck, rests at fb and Darcy C to forward as I see Cameron struggling a bit in the ruck this year, we may see DC tap ruck in the fwd pocket, Frampton tap ruck in the back pocket when resting while Cox (while still playing) being the main ruck and going fwd whilst Cameron is on the bench, to limit load between 3 rucks to lengthen the longevity of the ruck stocks.