Autopsy Round 18, 2023: Gold Coast v St.Kilda *PERIS DEBUT*

[Plugger35]

You think RTB is going to accept that BS. He will have a say in everything....he can't help himself.....he has an opinion on what he wants how he wants to play and what type of style and player he wants.... he is not the type to compromise much after the BS we and he saw tonight.
The press conference was the first time we saw him just throw the team under the bus and he had every right to mind you.
Change is coming Johnn Snow....RTB the white walker is coming and it isn't for a cuddle.

On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

The challenge for RTB and our club us how do we bring in the elite talent we need.

We are going to finish mid table again so we won't get the top draft picks and we aren't a flag contender so we won't attract the top free agents either.

Not that it matters anyway as all the top free agents want to go to the big clubs like Collingwood or Richmond or the more successful clubs like Geelong.

We can't even catch a break with the father sons, Geelong got GAJ, Collingwood got Nick Daicos, the Dogs got Sam Darcy and we got Bailey Rice.

The upshot is that we end up with a mediocre moneyball list full of second best free agents like Crouch and Hill and second or third best draft picks,

 

[StCicatriz]

* it’s been a long day.

We have asked the question on Bailey Smith

3

Bailey Smith

Age

24

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

.

Mowman Joffaboy StCicatriz can all vouch I went earlier than Sam McClure on this.

Whole league is asking however.

We really like Holmes. But I can’t see it happening personally.

TDK should be a saint if the season ends today. Ross thinks he can get a lot more out of him. Rates the key attributes.

Wants a key back. But setting sights lower than McKay Himmelberg now. Latest whisper. Tom Jonas.
Boss wants a legitimate key defensive stopper with height and power.

Gresh is gone IMO. Ross not a huge fan.

Really wanted Bergman. Ross wants players who have height power and can intercept mark.

Wants to find more penetrating kicks.

And if they can’t bring good players in. Just wants to load up for the draft. Happy to play kids.

can confirm

 

[StCicatriz]

View attachment 1739716

Fmd put it back in the dungeon mate

 

[UnfinishedBusiness]

I would be happy to never see Gresh put on the jumper again

 

[Munga]

Loved Lyon's brutal honesty at the presser. We won't beat the Roos playing like that. Poor decision making and execution. Handballing to feet, it's the same guys repeatedly doing it. Not enough time to improve skills until preseason. Not good enough scoring, need to change the programme. Don't deserve to play finals bringing that.

Going to be an interesting offseason! Not like the previous one though haha!

 

[Premium]

I would be happy to never see Gresh put on the jumper again

After last year I thought he might start to bring the performance's we were all hoping he could produce , however this year he just gone backwards.

 

[George]

I watched it again because I'm sick in the head and take back a bit of what I said, it's obviously not all on the coaches, it's definitely a mix though.

A majority of our players simply don't have any resilience and/or leadership out there. We are a bunch of foot soldiers which probably gives some stability in terms of where we find ourselves year after year - a middling, average football team. Perhaps I just don't want to admit that it's more of a list issue than a coaching issue because if it's a list issue it's going to take us years to fix and we're in for a lot more pain.

However, the coaching does need improvement and they aren't exempt from blame for where we are at either. Our tall forwards consist of guys like Caminiti Owens and Sharman. Not exactly dominant key forwards. So, why are the coaches instructing them to continually kick sky balls into F50? Why don't we get it in lower and give the likes of Butler Higgins etc, who are definitely more dangerous, a chance to get a hold of the ball and make something happen?

Why do the coaches continue to instruct the players to move the ball at blistering pace when we clearly don't have the cattle for it? Lyon bemoans the ball use, handballing to feet, missing targets. Why are we not playing a more conservative game? We can still be attacking but there's clearly a balance in terms of speed on the ball and if the players clearly can't execute it why continue to plough through?

We're a complete mess. How we're still 6th after losing 4 of our last 5 games is beyond me.

 

[Sully111]

“We’ll take them to the deep end and see how they like it”.

That was Ross the Boss’s mantra earlier this year when doing his team talks at three-quarter time and when we had our great winning run.

So from the man himself, our good form was down to nothing tactically, just “run harder”.

Now, after the latest press conference, he is throwing the players under the bus for their horrendous skills, instead of thinking “hang on, all 40 of these blokes can’t all be poor kicks and decision makers in an equalized comp”.

The reality is Ross and his assistants have been “taken to the deep end” by the other coaches since the opposition bridged the fitness gap we had over them earlier this year.

We’ve been found out by the opposition big time tactically.

Not surprising when you think about it. Ross had an alarming drop off at Freo at the end of his tenure. Then, out of the game for three years, when it became even more attacking and tactical.

It’s not like he went away for three years study other more technical sports and their tactics. After his time out, the depth of his analysis was “run harder.”

Of course he wasn’t going to come back in and become an attacking coach all of a sudden when this is what this poor group needs more than anything.

Instead, the group have got Richo and Ratts with a better vocabulary and some better analogies. But if you squint your eyes hard enough, “Strong in the contest” and “Why not us” look the same as “let’s take them to the deep end” where it matters most, on the field.

No wonder the players look fed up with their workplace being like this. Constantly being made to do things that are futile against better coached teams.

Bassat will have to go in the next couple of years when the members won’t buy another rebuild that Ross will try and sell him (inevitable) and continues throwing players under the bus.

People will stop going and won’t watch crap like 2 goals in a half against Gold Coast.

And I don’t blame them one bit.

I agree that tactically, we've been worked out somewhat.

But if the players can't execute the basic skills of the game, it's pretty hard to have a game plan that will work.

It's the same thing every week. It's the same thing every year. Our player's skills and decision making are way behind where they need to be. Seb Ross won b&f's butchering the ball.

We need good kicks. We need good decision makers.

It absolutely needs to be a focus when training too.

 

[Saintbloke]

Still pretty hard to get over how bad we played as a team yesterday, and clearly Lyon's attempt to get a fast play-on game happening early again didn't work, and we lost yet another game with a poor first quarter. Most teams now know that a fast moving midfield setup will bring us undone as it did again yesterday.

We have gone from a team who played as a well-drilled unit early in the season, to a team who play like they don't know each other..Lyon needs to wear some of this as part of his coaching gig..there is a big disconnect between backs, mids and forwards. Sad that there's no pressure on positions, as there's a lot of lazy footy going on. What hope is there when the more experienced players are the culprits.

 

[gringo2011]

Couldn’t pick him in a line-up of my life depended on it. Was sure as the sun rising tomorrow.

Callum Sinclaire cup winner of the week.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Who'd have thought this would happen

 

[gringo2011]

I agree that tactically, we've been worked out somewhat.

But if the players can't execute the basic skills of the game, it's pretty hard to have a game plan that will work.

It's the same thing every week. It's the same thing every year. Our player's skills and decision making are way behind where they need to be. Seb Ross won b&f's butchering the ball.

We need good kicks. We need good decision makers.

It absolutely needs to be a focus when training too.

Yeah, watching Nas cut sides open by foot you realise how poor so many others are. Ryan Byrnes seems to have improved his kicking so perhaps having Goddard working with the young ones is getting some results.

So much of our list is made up of players who were let go by their original clubs. Not many give away their best players. It's usually a skill deficiency or a bad habit or being 10% off somewhere in the game. Then we have another pile who were rookies or career state league players.....basically guys overlooked by other clubs through the normal pathways. Some are unlucky but generally you don't get drafted because of skill defences or other elements of concern.

When Richo was coaching we had a list that was meat and potatoes and lacked high end. We still have a list that is meat and potatoes and lacks high end but the middle layer of good solid talent is deeper and the new kids are offering the hope that Dunny, Acres, Hunter Clark, Coffield etc used to offer.

Pretty much in an eternal holding pattern, Sinclair is Jack Steven, Steele is Seb Ross, King is Josh Bruce and then bunch of triers and kids.

 

[gringo2011]

Ok so if the coach was sacked for a reason was it purely he

A. Was s**t
B. Couldn't get the best out of the team
C. He should have made finals last year

If it even remotely relates to C then the powers that be expected more out of this group.

They had an expectation of finals last year and thus it would be easy to assume that finals should be in our grasp this year. Especially with a more seasoned and 'successful' coach.

We've been told repeatedly that this change was going to set the bar for expected standards both on and off field.
All I've seen over the last 3 months is the same attitude held by the club and especially its senior players. Plenty of mulligans given.

Was it a Mulligan though? We were just a worse side.

 

[gringo2011]

The issue is a negative coach like him who can’t teach ball movement and therefore won’t develop these players properly.

People misunderstand ball movement: it is the first line of defence now to move it the right way, it’s not just an offensive concept. And a major component of it is hitting targets by foot and hand under pressure, something that needs to be continually coached and simulated (as in you literally build every training drill around it and be obsessed with it. Our coaches have an obsession with tackling and physicality and it shows).

Old-school coaches like Ross and defence are like conservative politicians when you ask them about crime. Ross would say “more tackling, pressure, more defensive workrate” as the answer to defense, ask conservative politicians about crime and they’d say “build more jails”. Both philosophies outdated.

You defend now through attack.

Blokes like Mitchell have the right way of developing young players in a modern environment.

Keeping the likes of Ross Lyon around young players in this day and age is asking for trouble as even their defensive philosophies are completely out of step and, if you drill those methods into young players, it will do more harm than good.

If we think our list looks in bad shape now, just wait a few years Saints fans. Under Ross, we’ll keep going backward while teams coached properly for modern footy will go forwards, scoring points and entertaining people while they do it. 20,000 people at Docklands? That’ll feel like glory days. No one will turn up to the drudgery Lyon teams are going to continue to churn out in this day and age.

Bassatt has had a shocker here sadly. Classic “job for the boys” appointment like a few brave souls like George mentioned at the time (I wasn’t one of them). Bassat got talked into the appointment on a boat by influential old boys having a cognac and cigar who have no idea about modern sport like Lindsey Fox. To Lindsey Fox and Eddie McGuire, Ross is an elite coach because they grew up playing footy when it was an unsophisticated mess tactically, unlike today.

This club just keeps ******* up and it will get worse on the field now for a few years.

I think the way that we move the ball shows what he thinks of this list though. He won't go up the middle and hugs the boundary. That's a coach that doesn't rate his players skills. To me he's hardly had a full list to put up and probably unfair to judge him on it yet. I'm not a fan of super defensive footy but Sydney and Geelong both got to the GF with a pressure game.

Aussie Rules is still a bit behind world sport. I don't know if Lyon will ever take us to a flag but our internal systems and footy department were so far behind that even building a set up that competes on a level playing field will give us more chance of moving forward in the future.

 

[gringo2011]

Bont wouldn't be Bont playing for us, we could have got Crippa though.

I don't believe that. Dogs didn't do anything special with him. He just has all the right pieces in place.

 

[gringo2011]

Time for another review.

I wonder if the AFL have a disgraced sex pest that we could pay $$$$ to, even though their only experience is a bit of ammos footy.

 

[gringo2011]

A few thoughts on the game. I thought the issue was more execution than anything. Our inability to make the most of simple goal-scoring scenarios is really killing us. Our entries into the forward line are so predictable and poor. Sharman was actually doing a good job finding some separation from his man but we couldn't get it to him. Our skills and decision making are terrible.

Hill has had a good season but it just felt like he was trying to do too much today and make so much happen. His turnovers were absolutely soul-destroying. We need to get back to being a systems-based team, we seem like a pack of individuals at the moment all just doing their own thing.

I thought Crouch was really bad today. I may have a terrible read on that but his skills and execution inside just seemed average as to me and if he's the one holding out Bytel then maybe it is time to drop him and have a look at what Jack can do.

When you look at our forward line quite frankly it looks s**t on paper, so maybe it's no surprise that we are such an horrendous offensive side but more than anything it just seems like the good vibes of earlier in the year are gone. Mason Wood for example looked like one of the best marks in the comp, now he's constantly spilling them. Butler can't seem to get into games.

It's interesting that Ross mentioned Flanders in his press conference. Makes me think we must be looking at him as I imagine he usually wouldn't know him from a bar of soap.

We need to find a way to play some better footy over the next two months. I've given up on finals now they're long gone and too many sides are playing better than us, but we at least need to see something in a footy sense that can give us some hope that we can find a way to kick scores going forward. Right now we are putrid to watch, and many fans will be switching off and definitely not going to the games. It's such a bummer not to play finals but more than anything we need to find out why we go to s**t every single season.

The problem is that Flanders was rotting in the VFL and now he looks blue chip in a great midfield. He wouldn't have the time and space in our side and now he looks like he'd take a first round pick to get him.

Dow our other bin pick up is playing too and has gone from a delisted free agent to a trade.

 

[seasonedsainter]

“We’ll take them to the deep end and see how they like it”.

That was Ross the Boss’s mantra earlier this year when doing his team talks at three-quarter time and when we had our great winning run.

So from the man himself, our good form was down to nothing tactically, just “run harder”.

Now, after the latest press conference, he is throwing the players under the bus for their horrendous skills, instead of thinking “hang on, all 40 of these blokes can’t all be poor kicks and decision makers in an equalized comp”.

The reality is Ross and his assistants have been “taken to the deep end” by the other coaches since the opposition bridged the fitness gap we had over them earlier this year.

We’ve been found out by the opposition big time tactically.

Not surprising when you think about it. Ross had an alarming drop off at Freo at the end of his tenure. Then, out of the game for three years, when it became even more attacking and tactical.

It’s not like he went away for three years study other more technical sports and their tactics. After his time out, the depth of his analysis was “run harder.”

Of course he wasn’t going to come back in and become an attacking coach all of a sudden when this is what this poor group needs more than anything.

Instead, the group have got Richo and Ratts with a better vocabulary and some better analogies. But if you squint your eyes hard enough, “Strong in the contest” and “Why not us” look the same as “let’s take them to the deep end” where it matters most, on the field.

No wonder the players look fed up with their workplace being like this. Constantly being made to do things that are futile against better coached teams.

Bassat will have to go in the next couple of years when the members won’t buy another rebuild that Ross will try and sell him (inevitable) and continues throwing players under the bus.

People will stop going and won’t watch crap like 2 goals in a half against Gold Coast.

And I don’t blame them one bit.

You're going to die on this hill ain't you. Id' suggest though to simply stop making excuses for the players. IMO RTB is extracting everything he can from this group. We've a non-existent midfield and the list is clogged with more turds than a Bombay sewer. Have you considered the possibility that your "sports psychologist" buddy is actually just wide of the mark by a fair margin? Put any other coach in Lyon's shoes - McCrae for EG - I honest to god cannot see this group performing any better. Young wans and three or four other players aside, the vast majorty of them are BOG average on many levels (footy IQ, competitiveness, skills come immediaitely to mind), it's fairly plain to see.

 

[gringo2011]

If we cut the core and bring youth I would have us going backwards

I reckon Marshall is the only player that would get us anything in trades. If we replaced him with a solid tap ruck maybe we stay where we are. Hunter Clark, Gresham, Coffield maybe, Billings and Membrey types could all make way and not be a major difference to this year if the rest stay fit. Howard looks like he'll struggle to keep a spot if we find a FB too so could get us something back.

 

[Joffaboy]

So reading this a full rebuild is on the cards.
If so the earliest we will be in finals is 2025/26.
The whining now is insufferable, wait until two more seasons of this.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[BrutThough]

I watched it again because I'm sick in the head and take back a bit of what I said, it's obviously not all on the coaches, it's definitely a mix though.

A majority of our players simply don't have any resilience and/or leadership out there. We are a bunch of foot soldiers which probably gives some stability in terms of where we find ourselves year after year - a middling, average football team. Perhaps I just don't want to admit that it's more of a list issue than a coaching issue because if it's a list issue it's going to take us years to fix and we're in for a lot more pain.

However, the coaching does need improvement and they aren't exempt from blame for where we are at either. Our tall forwards consist of guys like Caminiti Owens and Sharman. Not exactly dominant key forwards. So, why are the coaches instructing them to continually kick sky balls into F50? Why don't we get it in lower and give the likes of Butler Higgins etc, who are definitely more dangerous, a chance to get a hold of the ball and make something happen?

Why do the coaches continue to instruct the players to move the ball at blistering pace when we clearly don't have the cattle for it? Lyon bemoans the ball use, handballing to feet, missing targets. Why are we not playing a more conservative game? We can still be attacking but there's clearly a balance in terms of speed on the ball and if the players clearly can't execute it why continue to plough through?

We're a complete mess. How we're still 6th after losing 4 of our last 5 games is beyond me.

Like anything, it's never all one thing.

There are many holes on the list but there has also been a lot of flaws on the coaching/game style too.

Both will need improving if we want to get out of this repeated cycle we seem to be on.

 

[gringo2011]

I’ve started to wonder if a straight swap for McKay could happen.

North were right in for Dougal the year we landed him.

McKay is a free agent. I don't think you'd need to trade but if they'd take him for us it would save us a trip to the tip.

 

[phantom13]

Well…

I have honestly got nothing.

I’ve tried defending this rabble if a club in the “saints are in no man’s land” thread and even the Ross thread and then they go and serve that up.

Said it a million times it’s not the losing, we’ve always lost, we can handle that, it’s the effort and the looking like a ****ing Benny Hill clip that pains me.

Not sure I’ll bother watching another saints game this year. Can’t really see the point.

 

[gringo2011]

It would be more concerning if they were a bunch of guns. Geelong are 27 & 8 months on average tonight with 10 players well over 30 and they don't look particularly old or past it.

The bigger issue is that from our over 25's we only have a small handful who would walk into another club and get a game, 3 of them we snagged as rookies. There's a whole generation of talent we're missing who should be lifting our young guns up, but instead we're hoping that the prodigious talent of a few kids can take up the slack.

Watched a bit of Carlton. Acres is playing good footy these days from that. You can't believe we traded him out and the rest for Hill, he would add more than Hill and he's got years left. Hill is over 30 and looks like he's losing his skills. Once the run goes he's going to be unplayable. We replaced that generation with limited GOPs and paid to do it. Amazing. Thanks Lethers.

 

[gringo2011]

Howard wouldn’t get a game there either.

What’s your point?

Great trade. We shouldn't chase players at Freo or Port. When we deal with them we come back naked and broke with our dignity taken away. We'll end up giving them three first round picks for Tom Jonas because his name sounds like Tom Jones and he was still a thing when we were any good as a footy club.