Training 2024 training updates.

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Sea fog said:
So Annabel must have gone back to training after missing some and here is a long report from Fb.

There was a bank of white cloud covering when all the coaches and Howe graced the arena at 9.15, but the sky was hardly glowering with shards of bright blue penetrating. Shortly thereafter, most of the remainder of the squad emerged.

The report from casualty reads as follows:
Clearly Josh Daicos was an in-patient today as he did not make an appearance, even to check out the weather which was favourable - the vista evident to fans, was alternately bathed in sunshine, or covered in slightly duller light.
Jakob Ryan participated in all of the early drills and became kicker for one which involved one on one duels. Later he undertook a lot of agility work with a trainer. He was wearing a bandage on his lower right leg.
Oleg spent the session running laps and doing some individual work with a trainer. Clearly he is nursing a niggle.

There were some near misses to alarm the reasonable number of fans who’d arrived to monitor training. About halfway through proceedings, IQ went down in a drill. He was assisted to his feet by teammates but was hobbling appreciably when upright. He started hopping and then was aided by a physio to leave the ground. When he was near the pavilion, he was explaining how the injury occurred and there was some speculation that it may be a PCL injury the way his knee banged into the turf. Fortunately, he re-entered the arena in time for the next major drill, after the whole group had been ushered inside, clearly for some instructions. He sported a square of tape just below the left knee. With the number of incidents occurring at training around the venues, his temporary absence was enough to give the onlookers pause.

Beau copped a heavy knock during stoppage training and remained on the ground before gingerly regaining his feet. Howe also was inconvenienced when knocked in a drill with the ‘big boys’ at the river end but resumed after a breather.

The SSP crew was in attendance again and striving hard as we move inexorably towards the decision deadline. There is some talk our call on these players may be imminent.

The long whistle for the commencement of training sounded at 9.25 and the first three groups reprised all recent sessions. The outer side was reserve for a high-octane warm-up which today featured aggressive jumping and hopping. In the middle there was tackling and evasion work taking place between two fluoro green poles. As it progressed there were two tacklers grappling with each target accompanied by a high volume as players screamed “Take him!” The coaches constantly asked them to reset. The third group at the John Cain Arena end honed their handball skills between yellow cones, with half the players donning yellow vests to create the competitive edge.

The groups rotated to provide exposure of the range of activities to all players.



This protracted phase of training was called warm-up fundamentals
As per usual, the whole squad reunited and sprinted between strategically placed cones, with the latter running tougher by virtue of the start being from a prostrate position which is clearly aimed at warming up the muscles even further and simulating match situations.

Therein followed an assembly of four groups with some undertaking tackling, some handballing, with those at the far end, mixing their skill base with some shots for goal. It is patently obvious that shooting for goal is one of the players’ favourite indulgence.
The players in the middle where there was a stoppage focus were likely suspects; Cox, Allan, JDG, Crisp and Pendles, with Cameron and Cox competing for the ruck. The smaller players would shark the hit outs and burst away with the ball.

At the JCA end there was an emphasis on spoiling, practising leading for the ball and competing in one-on-one duels.

The next stoppage group which rotated through the middle included: Begg and Steene who battled it out in the ruck, Sullivan, Nick, Pendles, Lippa, and Hustwaite who fought for the crumbs.

While this segment of training took place, the scoreboard illuminated the word FIGHT which appears to signify that everything has to be hotly contested, and the players put inordinate pressure on their opponents with even some latent aggression on display from WHE.

The combined groups all met in the centre and the whiteboard was held aloft for everyone’s perusal.

They then cleaved into two main groups with players at both ends paired with another – one had to be a forward, while one did the defending. They competed with gusto and there were some interesting match-ups, including: JDG/Mitch, Moore/Ash, Richards/Beau, Cox/Begg, WHE/Sofrinidis, Reef and Murphy. Ryan was the kicker to the river end.

Following this the players took a rehydration break some seemed overcome with lassitude as they were blowing hard and audibly gasping. Howe was down on his haunches, spraying jets of water over his head and saying “Suck it up!”

The players stood in a line facing McRae who showered praise on some, commending the efforts of individuals in training and imparting some pearls of wisdom for them to contemplate as they attacked their next bracket of drills.

The next was some mini-match play captained by six players who aren’t the putative leaders as three teams opposed each other and rotated. The alternative to the black or white tops were yellow, blue and green vests. It was here where IQ sustained his ‘false alarm’ injury.

This was willingly contested and profanities were borne on the wind as players battled for supremacy. When IQ walked from the ground, he showed the physio how the mishap occurred with his arms splayed explaining how he was pushing and then …

The scores were called by the coach overseeing each ‘match’ and very long whistle brought about the cessation of this energetic display.

Three groups again assembled with more focus on stoppage play in the middle and again the likely participants were: Beau, Crisp, Fin, Sidey, Allan Nick, Carmichael, Mitch and Hustwaite, w3ith Cox doing the bulk of the rucking. These stoppage set-ups appear to offer a preview of how we will be setting up once things get super serious.

At either end, the taller players competed for marks in packs with some occasional leading. There was then some half ground ball movement featuring overlapping groups.

The frequent wardrobe changes much to the chagrin of onlookers rendered identifying all the players at given moments an occupation fraught with vexation and laced with a liberal dose of mystery. Not only did they frequently change tops, from black to white, but they constantly mixed up the numbers on their backs.

Thereafter there was match simulation. Again the centre square configuration offered clues to our plans for the season but it was interesting to see Carmichael opposed to Sidey on a wing.

Cox rucked against Steene and Begg while it was instructive to see the likes of Fin and Allan getting so much practice in the middle, working with seasoned extractors like Mitch.







Random observations of players:

Q – it was great to see him rise – Lazarus like to move freely in the match simulation and play his defensive role with aplomb.
TJ – such a lissom athlete who glides over the turf and in the drills, he shimmied his way around targets. He is a paragon of elusiveness and in the match play he got the ball and used it with precision.
Nick – again shone in the match play, dobbing a long goal and impressing with his ubiquity and utility. If his popularity index was tested on the footy fan Stock Exchange, he would be more highly rated than most, with perhaps only Jamie at Collingwood threatening his top dog mantle.
Eyre – again looked solid and he nearly nailed a specci at the river end.

Sullivan – looks some chance of being listed and he’s clearly earmarked for the Adams role of being the high forward – the conduit between the middle and forwards, if he gets the gig.

Sofrinidis – thought he did all right in a spirited one on one duel with WHE in the marking and leading duels but he was relatively inconspicuous in the match simulation.

Begg – has to be rated as one of the big improvers this off-season. He is looking physically robust, is marking well but really showing out in rucking contests whereby he wins taps, some very accurately palmed, and on some occasions he follows his work up to impact the next contest.

Hill – moving like a treat, and manifesting that innate ability to know where the goals are but also execute well by foot.

Allan – while he fumbled one ball, his recovery was good and he continues to be prominent in the way he attacks drills and is involved in the match play.

Cameron – looks fitter than when he returned from injury halfway through last season. He’s manoeuvring his body well and his hands are vice-like.

Mitch – he has to be commended for how often he positions himself well to receive or hunt the ball, his footy nous is top notch.
Pendles and Sidey – evergreens who continue to approach training so professionally in their twilight years and show youngsters how to win the ball and dodge opponents.

Steene – takes the odd good grab and is learning the caper in the ruck but showing promise.
Checkers was pleasing to see him return to the fray and fit in seamlessly; he dobbed a major and was his customary unflustered presence.
Lippa – is unobtrusively show3ing that maybe some of his indifferent form last year may have been aberrant. He looks super fit and is running tirelessly, linking up with others and often kicking crisply.

After match simulation, it seemed to be a bit of players’ choice as they sauntered in desultory fashion to various sectors of the ground. Usually at this point, captain and coach have a lengthy conversation which perhaps is debrief of the morning’s proceedings.
Click to expand...
Annabel has apparently swallowed yet another dictionary.......7 or 8 words rarely heard or read which had me hunting for my dictionary: cleaved gusto lassitude putative lissom ubiquity aberrant desultory

I reckon Annabel would kick a$$ at Scrabble :)
 

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joefootylover said:
The problem with GC's theory is that it is tautological, that is, we define "good players" by the number of games they play, and the number of games you play in a career will be proportional to how many you get each season from the get go.

Of course the best players form day one will get games, and of course if they stay fit and continue to be good players they will get more games than a player that comes in after a longer apprenticeship.

The player who is a late bloomer will, again pretty much by definition, be rare, in comparison to the player who is good from the start, and they will, again pretty much by definition, end their careers on average with far fewer games when compared to a player who played games from year one, that's all just basic math.

So your comparing apples with oranges using GC's metrics, what you need to make a fair comparison is to define what a successful "late bloomer" looks like stats wise (i.e half the number of games as a "good player" etc) and then work out what the base probability is for such a player, i.e, they are definitionally rarer than the players who are good from day one.

The other problem with the argument is that it uses evidence that is again more or less definitional to attempt to make a prediction about individual players that is simply not warranted. Saying that a player is unlikely to make it because late bloomers are rare is just mixing up the question, which is; "what are the chances that, say, McInnes, is one of these, acknowledged to be rare, late bloomers?" You can't use the fact that late bloomers are rare compared to fast starters to tell you anything about the likelihood that a given player is a late bloomer, we already know they are not in the fast starter category, the question is if we have any reason to think that they might belong to the other category.

The third thing is that there are always players in a given team, even a premiership team, that no one would claim are "good players" in the career sense, Frampton has a medal, and did a decent job in his role, Jarryd Blair has a premiership medal, a good honest player nothing more, so the real question is whether or not some of these kids can play a role in an AFL side, long enough for us to find the next star in that position, not that they are that star.

In our current team a good example is Cameron, no star, but a pretty good role-player for us now, so much so that Begg and Steene get to develop their craft in the 2's for longer (which by GC's logic makes them less likely every week to make it as players), He was drafted by the Swans in 2016, managed 1 game in 2 years, then played about 10 for us in year three and frankly looked a likely bust, then in 2021 was a solid contributor as a second ruck and is now a premiership player.

At the end of his career will people put him in the class of "good players"? probably not, but those players will usually make up about 5-10 of a given 22, rising to maybe 12+ for sides winning flags and dominating eras.

You need to recruit both sets of players, the ones who are stars from day one and end up commanding 3/4 of your salary cap, and the ones who can play a role and who not too many will remember when they hang up the boots.

Fewer than one in 5 players that play an AFL game make it to 100 games. fewer than 1 in 10 make it to 150 games.

that means that any given player on debut is PROBABLY not going to make 100 games.

but PROBABILITY is an unreliable way to manage your list.

From a random reddit post:

As a point of reference for those interested 12581 people have played at least one AFL game.

Game MilestoneNumber Of Players To Reach MilestonePercentage Of Players To Reach Milestone
10771561.323%
50396831.540%
100221317.590%
15011439.085%
2005604.452%
2502341.860%
300830.660%
350150.119%
40040.032%
I found this information quite interesting in the end as less than a third of all players who ever play a game will reach the 50 game milestone that is often not highly regarded. In fact the median number for games played is just 19 games.

so if you manage to play 20 games of AFL you have played more games than most players in the history of AFL.
Click to expand...
Agree my theory is basic and in no way a guide to judge individual players. All you can about a Finn or a Reef is they are in that group where not many players go on and have a substantial career. As you say if you wanted to take it further you would need to drill down and find what were the characteristics in the slow starters that may predict the one that do kick on.
 
Bobby Hill is exquisite. His confidence grew throughout 2023, hitting peak Bobby in the GF. He’ll be bursting to get back out there. What a bargain pickup.😍
 
Gone Critical said:
Agree my theory is basic and in no way a guide to judge individual players. All you can about a Finn or a Reef is they are in that group where not many players go on and have a substantial career. As you say if you wanted to take it further you would need to drill down and find what were the characteristics in the slow starters that may predict the one that do kick on.
Click to expand...

I’m sure lack of opportunity in an exciting team that won a flag and missed a GF spot by a point over the past two seasons is part of that, combined with some untimely injuries and when fit, occasionally just cameo roles on the sub bench where you sometimes have just 15 minutes to prove yourself, are part of the characteristics.
 
Sea fog said:
So Annabel must have gone back to training after missing some and here is a long report from Fb.

There was a bank of white cloud covering when all the coaches and Howe graced the arena at 9.15, but the sky was hardly glowering with shards of bright blue penetrating. Shortly thereafter, most of the remainder of the squad emerged.

The report from casualty reads as follows:
Clearly Josh Daicos was an in-patient today as he did not make an appearance, even to check out the weather which was favourable - the vista evident to fans, was alternately bathed in sunshine, or covered in slightly duller light.
Jakob Ryan participated in all of the early drills and became kicker for one which involved one on one duels. Later he undertook a lot of agility work with a trainer. He was wearing a bandage on his lower right leg.
Oleg spent the session running laps and doing some individual work with a trainer. Clearly he is nursing a niggle.

There were some near misses to alarm the reasonable number of fans who’d arrived to monitor training. About halfway through proceedings, IQ went down in a drill. He was assisted to his feet by teammates but was hobbling appreciably when upright. He started hopping and then was aided by a physio to leave the ground. When he was near the pavilion, he was explaining how the injury occurred and there was some speculation that it may be a PCL injury the way his knee banged into the turf. Fortunately, he re-entered the arena in time for the next major drill, after the whole group had been ushered inside, clearly for some instructions. He sported a square of tape just below the left knee. With the number of incidents occurring at training around the venues, his temporary absence was enough to give the onlookers pause.

Beau copped a heavy knock during stoppage training and remained on the ground before gingerly regaining his feet. Howe also was inconvenienced when knocked in a drill with the ‘big boys’ at the river end but resumed after a breather.

The SSP crew was in attendance again and striving hard as we move inexorably towards the decision deadline. There is some talk our call on these players may be imminent.

The long whistle for the commencement of training sounded at 9.25 and the first three groups reprised all recent sessions. The outer side was reserve for a high-octane warm-up which today featured aggressive jumping and hopping. In the middle there was tackling and evasion work taking place between two fluoro green poles. As it progressed there were two tacklers grappling with each target accompanied by a high volume as players screamed “Take him!” The coaches constantly asked them to reset. The third group at the John Cain Arena end honed their handball skills between yellow cones, with half the players donning yellow vests to create the competitive edge.

The groups rotated to provide exposure of the range of activities to all players.



This protracted phase of training was called warm-up fundamentals
As per usual, the whole squad reunited and sprinted between strategically placed cones, with the latter running tougher by virtue of the start being from a prostrate position which is clearly aimed at warming up the muscles even further and simulating match situations.

Therein followed an assembly of four groups with some undertaking tackling, some handballing, with those at the far end, mixing their skill base with some shots for goal. It is patently obvious that shooting for goal is one of the players’ favourite indulgence.
The players in the middle where there was a stoppage focus were likely suspects; Cox, Allan, JDG, Crisp and Pendles, with Cameron and Cox competing for the ruck. The smaller players would shark the hit outs and burst away with the ball.

At the JCA end there was an emphasis on spoiling, practising leading for the ball and competing in one-on-one duels.

The next stoppage group which rotated through the middle included: Begg and Steene who battled it out in the ruck, Sullivan, Nick, Pendles, Lippa, and Hustwaite who fought for the crumbs.

While this segment of training took place, the scoreboard illuminated the word FIGHT which appears to signify that everything has to be hotly contested, and the players put inordinate pressure on their opponents with even some latent aggression on display from WHE.

The combined groups all met in the centre and the whiteboard was held aloft for everyone’s perusal.

They then cleaved into two main groups with players at both ends paired with another – one had to be a forward, while one did the defending. They competed with gusto and there were some interesting match-ups, including: JDG/Mitch, Moore/Ash, Richards/Beau, Cox/Begg, WHE/Sofrinidis, Reef and Murphy. Ryan was the kicker to the river end.

Following this the players took a rehydration break some seemed overcome with lassitude as they were blowing hard and audibly gasping. Howe was down on his haunches, spraying jets of water over his head and saying “Suck it up!”

The players stood in a line facing McRae who showered praise on some, commending the efforts of individuals in training and imparting some pearls of wisdom for them to contemplate as they attacked their next bracket of drills.

The next was some mini-match play captained by six players who aren’t the putative leaders as three teams opposed each other and rotated. The alternative to the black or white tops were yellow, blue and green vests. It was here where IQ sustained his ‘false alarm’ injury.

This was willingly contested and profanities were borne on the wind as players battled for supremacy. When IQ walked from the ground, he showed the physio how the mishap occurred with his arms splayed explaining how he was pushing and then …

The scores were called by the coach overseeing each ‘match’ and very long whistle brought about the cessation of this energetic display.

Three groups again assembled with more focus on stoppage play in the middle and again the likely participants were: Beau, Crisp, Fin, Sidey, Allan Nick, Carmichael, Mitch and Hustwaite, w3ith Cox doing the bulk of the rucking. These stoppage set-ups appear to offer a preview of how we will be setting up once things get super serious.

At either end, the taller players competed for marks in packs with some occasional leading. There was then some half ground ball movement featuring overlapping groups.

The frequent wardrobe changes much to the chagrin of onlookers rendered identifying all the players at given moments an occupation fraught with vexation and laced with a liberal dose of mystery. Not only did they frequently change tops, from black to white, but they constantly mixed up the numbers on their backs.

Thereafter there was match simulation. Again the centre square configuration offered clues to our plans for the season but it was interesting to see Carmichael opposed to Sidey on a wing.

Cox rucked against Steene and Begg while it was instructive to see the likes of Fin and Allan getting so much practice in the middle, working with seasoned extractors like Mitch.







Random observations of players:

Q – it was great to see him rise – Lazarus like to move freely in the match simulation and play his defensive role with aplomb.
TJ – such a lissom athlete who glides over the turf and in the drills, he shimmied his way around targets. He is a paragon of elusiveness and in the match play he got the ball and used it with precision.
Nick – again shone in the match play, dobbing a long goal and impressing with his ubiquity and utility. If his popularity index was tested on the footy fan Stock Exchange, he would be more highly rated than most, with perhaps only Jamie at Collingwood threatening his top dog mantle.
Eyre – again looked solid and he nearly nailed a specci at the river end.

Sullivan – looks some chance of being listed and he’s clearly earmarked for the Adams role of being the high forward – the conduit between the middle and forwards, if he gets the gig.

Sofrinidis – thought he did all right in a spirited one on one duel with WHE in the marking and leading duels but he was relatively inconspicuous in the match simulation.

Begg – has to be rated as one of the big improvers this off-season. He is looking physically robust, is marking well but really showing out in rucking contests whereby he wins taps, some very accurately palmed, and on some occasions he follows his work up to impact the next contest.

Hill – moving like a treat, and manifesting that innate ability to know where the goals are but also execute well by foot.

Allan – while he fumbled one ball, his recovery was good and he continues to be prominent in the way he attacks drills and is involved in the match play.

Cameron – looks fitter than when he returned from injury halfway through last season. He’s manoeuvring his body well and his hands are vice-like.

Mitch – he has to be commended for how often he positions himself well to receive or hunt the ball, his footy nous is top notch.
Pendles and Sidey – evergreens who continue to approach training so professionally in their twilight years and show youngsters how to win the ball and dodge opponents.

Steene – takes the odd good grab and is learning the caper in the ruck but showing promise.
Checkers was pleasing to see him return to the fray and fit in seamlessly; he dobbed a major and was his customary unflustered presence.
Lippa – is unobtrusively show3ing that maybe some of his indifferent form last year may have been aberrant. He looks super fit and is running tirelessly, linking up with others and often kicking crisply.

After match simulation, it seemed to be a bit of players’ choice as they sauntered in desultory fashion to various sectors of the ground. Usually at this point, captain and coach have a lengthy conversation which perhaps is debrief of the morning’s proceedings.
Click to expand...
Players that train like Lipinski get a run in Round 0.
 

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Gone Critical said:
All you can about a Finn or a Reef is they are in that group where not many players go on and have a substantial career.
Click to expand...
Not sure even that is true of Macrae, he had 9 games in his first year, including games with 18, 20 and 21 possessions, looked like he could develop into a player, Fly went with an older group in the next couple of years when we made a prelim then won a flag, and added Lipinski and Nick Daicos and then Tom Mitchell to the side, pushing Macrae down the pecking order.

Now Adams has left, and Macrae is the obvious next mid off the production line, with his VFL numbers last year looking excellent;
avgs: 25.6 disp, 5.8 tackles, 4.7 clearances, 94.1 AFL rating points.

still only 21, a first round pick, good bloodlines with an older brother who is a quality player, overall I am pretty confident he can be a player who performs in their role, which is all we can ask for.

Allan I am also pretty confident about, 194cm as a mid is "tall" for the role, and talls take longer, but again is a first round pick, again has good pedigree, and has some athletic weapons that are a point of difference.

McInnes the longest shot, but again, 194cm, still 21, has managed 11 games, McStay out means he may get opportunities. (also averaged over 2 goals a game in the VFL last year, which is a good number)
 
Roverjg said:
Michael Tuck played 50 reserves games before he cemented a place in the senior's.

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Tuck and Dipper’s lengthy apprenticeships have been noted on several posts. They weren’t alone.

I was at Hawthorn when Ayres played 22 games in his first 4 years - Warragul boy (with Mark Ridgeway). Team mate of Chris Mew, amongst others, in the Ressies.
 
Last edited:
Mick F said:
Tuck and Dipper’s lengthy apprenticeships have been noted on several posts. They weren’t alone.

I was at Hawthorn when Ayres played 22 games in his first 4 years - Warragul boy (with Mark Ridgeway). Team mate of Chris Mew, amongst others, in the Ressies.
Click to expand...
Andy Collins played a lot of ressies too didn't he? Plus a fair few of their lesser lights: the Dears, Morrissey, Schwab.
 
Roverjg said:
Michael Tuck played 50 reserves games before he cemented a place in the senior's.

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Michael Tuck played a year in the ressies when he was 17. Played full forward and kicked 63 goals. At 18 he debuted with 5 games and then 11 games the next year. At 20 yo he played 23 games and averaged 22+ games for the next 18 seasons. He played a good amount of ressies because he played there young, at a time the current kids would be playing their TAC season.
 
Mick F said:
Tuck and Dipper’s lengthy apprenticeships have been noted on several posts. They weren’t alone.

I was at Hawthorn when Ayres played 22 games in his first 4 years - Warragul boy (with Mark Ridgeway). Team mate of Chris Mew, amongst others, in the Ressies.
Click to expand...
But again Ayres was also in that group of many Hawks stars who debuted when he was 17, something that cant happen now. He was a bit slow off the mark for the next few years. 20 games in what would be the 1st 3 years of current players.

Still the 70s and 80s were a different time when good players started their senior careers much earlier. John Greening is a great example and what a player he was. I watched him a lot at Vic Park as a kid. Debuted at about 17 and 4 months and only misses 1 game in the next 5 seasons til the day Jim ODea assaulted him.

Timmy Watson a man child at 15 playing with the seniors. 16 games that year. Was just short of 100 games.when he turned 20. Dont think using Hawks of 70s and 80s works cause most of their greatplayers started when they were 16, 17 or 18
 
Gone Critical said:
I dont really buy that reason give 36 of the 59 players selected in the 2020 draft have played more games that Finn or Reef with the same caveat. 22 of those are in the 30's 40's 50's or 60's for number of games played. Seems the numbers are the same as every other year if you look through them.
Click to expand...

How many were playing for a team that won the Premiership last year and were within a kick of a grand final the season prior?

How many had a couple of all time greats still running around defying age and a host of other established +30 year olds?

How many weeks or months in total were they sidelined with through injury?

While your work is a very useful guide and I don't think anyone believes a Macrae or Reef is a sure bet to make it, I do feel that trying to establish yourself at Collingwood during this recent period of time would be harder than if either were drafted to a St Kilda or North Melbourne and it's one nuance (alongside injury) that raw numbers alone struggle to quantify.
 
Bianconeri said:
Macrae maybe the one who grabs that spot but given Adams spent at least half his time in the forwardline last season I don’t think Macrae is the next obvious choice.
Click to expand...
This is my concern about Fin. He would have to have improved his game a lot since previous years. I'm going to wait till the season is well and truly underway before I see a spot for Fin.
 
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