Mega Thread #14 David Mackay - 14 possessions again

[jirkago]

How often do we see him running behind not fast opponents and fail to catch them. He remains a couple of metres away, far enough away to not impact their disposal, but close enough to clock up a pressure act. He's absolutely not fast in any sense of the word.

Thats the thing, most people think he is and put him in line breaker sort of player.
He doesnt do either but thats what we expect. With a few others coming through like CC Hampton and Milera, i see him being a backup player this year.
I dont dislike him as a player but unfortunately we now have better players. I think he will only player 7 to 10 games

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[Vhaluus]

Based on the B&F voting...
R2 (vs Port) - 13 votes
R5 (vs Hawthorn) - 10 votes
R6 (vs Fremantle) - 11 votes
EF (vs North) - 11 votes

Over the course of the season he only averaged 6.2 per game, but he did have some games which were much, much better than that.

Don't cop out and just go by best and fairest.. you presented an opinon so back it up. Which games did YOU think he did well in.

 

[Elite Crow]

Based on the B&F voting...
R2 (vs Port) - 13 votes
R5 (vs Hawthorn) - 10 votes
R6 (vs Fremantle) - 11 votes
EF (vs North) - 11 votes

Over the course of the season he only averaged 6.2 per game, but he did have some games which were much, much better than that.

That's Mackay in a nutshell. Plays 2-4 good games a year which keeps him in for an extended run.

Big gap between good games though, round 6 until the elimination final.

 

[Vader]

Don't cop out and just go by best and fairest.. you presented an opinon so back it up. Which games did YOU think he did well in.

Honestly, it's 12 months ago. One game blends into another. I do recall him being good in some games, and poor (even very poor) in others.

There are a few standout games in his career - his performance against Melbourne in 2015 is one that does stick in the mind (plus the obvious Collingwood final).

I'm not saying that he was good all season, or even good on average. Just that he had some very good games, in among all the not-so good games.

 

[Pdub]

Can the people claiming Mackay is on 400k tell me how they know this ? I can't see why the club would overpay him when in 2012 he offered to take a pay cut in an attempt to keep players from leaving the club.

It's probably on the money, he was a restricted free agent and at the time we were a side who was considered too slow with too many slow inside midfielders and he was one of the few players who could run. For me 4 years is more of an issue than $400k.

 

[Rear Admiral]

No offense taken mate. I agree with you to a large extent. There were plenty of times throughout the season when we were coming up against soft opponents, particularly at home when we could have really given a few chances to a some blokes while giving others a much needed rest or a kick up the arse by sending them back to the twos.

But, my point was that blokes that come in have to truly take their opportunity and they havent. We saw that with CEY in his 2 games (the poor bloke). While he did ok and slotted a couple of nice goals, we needed him to come in and be a contested bull if he was to take Thommo's spot who was begging for someone to take it.

My issue with Mackay is that he is medium. Medium isn't actually poor. He does do some nice things in a game. He burns it as much as anyone else, he is no more a liability than many guys that get a free pass week in, week out in that respect. He just doesnt stay in the game long enough. He is also a bit of a push over, so at times when you need somebody to make a contest he isnt up to it. All these are definite grounds to bring in someone better and I agree with your point that he should have been dropped several times to give someone a go. But, when the next guy comes in, he has to show he is at least as good as Mackay and I think blokes on the fringes have failed to do that. We saw that with Hendo. And (I am sure this will be heavily disputed on this board), but there were games when Mackay was more useful than Seedsman. He also was better than Milera for the last few games of his 8 game stint. So, there is a decision to make when you are competing in a hot race for top 4 where you are in it up to your eyeballs but so are 6 or 7 other teams. You cant afford to drop points.

Personally, I would have picked both Hendo and Seeds over Mackay late last season, but Hendo is even more of a risk with his disposal and I recall Seeds was injured. I think it would have been too big a risk to bring back Milera. I would have loved to have seen Hampton, but his form in the SANFL wasnt dominating either and so I can understand the decision that it was again too big a risk with what was at stake. Same goes for others like Beech late in the season.

The problem last season is that Mackay was actually good (very good even) early last season. Then due to injuries and not enough form in the SANFL there was no clear cut (indisputable) choice to bring in when his form dropped. Same went for Douglas and Thommo and possibly Sauce and JJ. There was a risk either way in all of those cases and who is to say in the alternative universe where BF got all its wishes come true that we would have done any better. I think we got as far as we could have personally and it wasn't because of Mackay.

I am actually not a big Mackay fan, but I respect him because he is one of us and I think that there is no perspective when it comes to him on BF.

Fair comments, and I understand what you're saying.
The way I look at it is, I don't get sidetracked by where we are on the ladder, what spots we're fighting to grab in the Top 8, etc. When assessing Veterans, I look at how they've performed over the duration....over several seasons. And as far as I'm concerned, I'd have turfed out MacKay (and others) years ago, then given some young kids a chance to prove themselves. The problem is, they're not going to get the chance to improve significantly by being left in the Magoos. If they're 1st year Rookies, sure, but not being left in the Magoos for season after season.
A very simple concept:

Short term pain for longterm gain

Not Tanking, no. But ditching out longterm players that have no further upside, then persist with Rookies that show signs of promise....not what their current form shows right this minute. This is the core of the matter. Instead, we wait for Veterans to retire, robbing our youngsters of game time.

I do not personally dislike MacKay or any of the players on our list, but from a playing-level standpoint, I cannot wait to see the back of him. And by no means is he the only one.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

That's Mackay in a nutshell. Plays 2-4 good games a year which keeps him in for an extended run.

Big gap between good games though, round 6 until the elimination final.

Yep, banked three passable games early to stitch his spot up then on easy street for the rest of the season.

Skillfully avoided the trip to Geelong too. Who says he doesn't have skill?

 

[Godallblighty]

Honestly, it's 12 months ago. One game blends into another. I do recall him being good in some games, and poor (even very poor) in others.

There are a few standout games in his career - his performance against Melbourne in 2015 is one that does stick in the mind (plus the obvious Collingwood final).

I'm not saying that he was good all season, or even good on average. Just that he had some very good games, in among all the not-so good games.

In the end, this argument comes down to semantics but even then, I find it hard to accept that his performances in any of these four matches come under the heading 'very good'. I'm prepared to concede 'good' but three of them were smashings of uncompetitive opponents where you'd be hard put to find anyone who didn't play well. The best of these games for him is surely the Hawthorn one, where he played his role to an acceptable level in a match that went down to the wire.

I honestly don't understand why you're arguing this point. Let's say in these games, he was better than 'not bad'. I concede the point. But he certainly wasn't BOG in any of them, or close to it, so at most you're quibbling over a broad assessment of his 2016 season that you mostly agree with. And if memory serves me right, last year you were arguing far more forcefully in his favour, so you seem to have changed your tune a bit.

 

[1970crow]

Honestly, it's 12 months ago. One game blends into another. I do recall him being good in some games, and poor (even very poor) in others.

There are a few standout games in his career - his performance against Melbourne in 2015 is one that does stick in the mind (plus the obvious Collingwood final).

I'm not saying that he was good all season, or even good on average. Just that he had some very good games, in among all the not-so good games.

He was good in the first showdown, great early, but it turned out they were well off it that, so was a typical Dmac feast on a side bringing zero intensity.

 

[Red mist]

The fear that David will be a constant break line rotation in the side is verified.

 

[Danger in Texas]

Surely Hampton/Wigg/Milera have gone past Mackay based on last Friday? Hopefully they all keep their form up.

 

[Shaz2012]

Come on, Mackay was not 'actually good (very good even)' at any time last year. At his best he was 'not bad'. And as for 'Hendo is even more of a risk with his disposal'...what? Hendo's disposal was far superior to Mackay.

I am not a Mackay hater. I don't believe that everyone in the team needs to be a bloody legend. There are foot soldiers in every premiership side. But his contribution as a senior player is so underwhelming so often, it makes no sense to me not to have tried other players in his position before now. While Hendo was not without his failings, I would have played him over Mackay at every opportunity.

Ok. Very good might be stretching it. But we were flying and everyone was playing their part. I remember thinking about DM, wow, he is actually playing well in a team setup that is working. That didn't last and I am not saying he is a really good player, but as far as the grass being greener in the squad, I have my doubts. I reckon we are pretty thin. I have to look past "ready to play" players before I get too excited. I am looking forward to seeing Milera, Hampton and Menzel step up and Knight find his way back. But other than that, I am really only hopeful about Dear, Greenwood and this years draftees. That doesn't mean I want Mackay in the team, I am just saying the grass isnt that much greener. I don't have Mackay in any or my preferred line ups and I would definitely prefer Seedsman. But he was disappointing IMO too.

I still maintain my point that the criticism Mackay gets is way out of proportion to the rest of the team. This thread typifies that. People are frustrated that we have mediocre players on our list and Mackay has been one of the best of them (the mediocre ones) so he cops all of the flack. You could have put a number of players (that were fit) in his place and I doubt that they would have performed any better. AFL is a hard level and picking up 20 possessions a game is not nothing.

 

[Roovolution]

I have little doubt that he'll start the season in the AFL team, regardless of injuries. The question is how long he remains there.

It's looking unlikely that Sloane, Brouch, and Thompson will be available for R1, and Lyons was traded - so that's a minimum of 4 changes relative to our 2016 SF team. My guess is that Mackay will play, and we'll also see Milera, Knight, Hampton, and Wigg named in the R1 team as well. How long Mackay stays in the team may well depend on how quickly Thommo & Brouch return to action, and how well the other 4 players perform. It may also depend upon Seedsman's availability, noting that he will probably require several SANFL games before being promoted back to the AFL team.

Lets not kid ourselves. McKay and Thompson will be first 22 again this year no matter what. The injury to CEY has strengthened that even further (not that it needed to).

 

[Godallblighty]

I still maintain my point that the criticism Mackay gets is way out of proportion to the rest of the team. This thread typifies that. People are frustrated that we have mediocre players on our list and Mackay has been one of the best of them (the mediocre ones) so he cops all of the flack. You could have put a number of players (that were fit) in his place and I doubt that they would have performed any better. AFL is a hard level and picking up 20 possessions a game is not nothing.

The way I see it, there aren't that many players to compare Mackay to. He is a 150 gamer. Knight is an obvious replacement for him but if he produced the exact same output as David it would put him way ahead. That's not a double standard. That's a recognition that Knight has every chance of improving markedly over the next 50 games. If he doesn't, and is still getting games by the time he's got 150 under the belt, I'll hold him just as accountable as I currently hold Mackay. The same is true of other developing players. They don't have to be better than Mackay at this stage, they just have to produce around the same level of impact. That isn't just about number of possessions either. Look at the impact Milera makes with his disposals. How do Mackay's compare?

Criticism of David Mackay isn't out of proportion IMO. It's absolutely in proportion to the scrutiny other senior players are under. If you can get a similar output from developing players, it's no wonder people get frustrated at his continual selection.

 

[Coopers]

We're gonna have a real problem if Mackay isn't selected though.

Who will be the whipping boy?

 

[Scorpus]

We're gonna have a real problem if Mackay isn't selected though.

Who will be the whipping boy?

Scott Thompson

 

[Jack is Back]

In JLT1 Bran Nue Mackae played mostly as a small defender but he had a couple of squirts as an inside mid.

Last year BNM played most of his footy as an outside mid/on the wing. We mostly used The RAT, Milera and CC on the wings in JLT1 (I found it interesting that we also tried The GOV on the wing). Does this mean that BNM is down the pecking order as an outside mid? We will know a bit more after JLT2.

I just don't see what BNM offers as an inside mid. Surely he isn't the Thommo replacement?

 

[1970crow]

We're gonna have a real problem if Mackay isn't selected though.

Who will be the whipping boy?

Sauce leading the markets at the moment. Needs to not have a repeat of last year where he was average all year until returning from injury where he was diabolical.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

We're gonna have a real problem if Mackay isn't selected though.

Who will be the whipping boy?

We could just pick a good team without deliberately including weak links. We've never tried this before but I'm hoping this is the year!

 

[OzSparrow]

This year's injuries haven't been to Dmac's natural competition. The only way he plays round 1 is as a ball winning inside midfielder that we're hoping to get 17 touches from 80% TOG. He's been blessed, but he's not that blessed.

Are you freaking kidding me? Have you seen this hack play?

No way does he play this role for us!

 

[the universal]

Are you freaking kidding me? Have you seen this hack play?

No way does he play this role for us!

I think you misread the tone of 1970crow's post ...

 

[1970crow]

Are you freaking kidding me? Have you seen this hack play?

No way does he play this role for us!

Was in there last Friday. My point is that he's behind a few for a defensive spot, especially if mids rotate through one spot. And he's behind 2-3 for an outside mid role. Inside mid or bust for the brute.

 

[SES SA]

The biggest misconception about Mackay is he is fast. When was the last time u saw him burn of a player?
He never uses his pace. If everybody thought he has no pace, we would thing he is average.

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In his highlights package for his 150th game. Pretty sure they were from around 2011/12, or something.

 

[Shaz2012]

The way I see it, there aren't that many players to compare Mackay to. He is a 150 gamer. Knight is an obvious replacement for him but if he produced the exact same output as David it would put him way ahead. That's not a double standard. That's a recognition that Knight has every chance of improving markedly over the next 50 games. If he doesn't, and is still getting games by the time he's got 150 under the belt, I'll hold him just as accountable as I currently hold Mackay. The same is true of other developing players. They don't have to be better than Mackay at this stage, they just have to produce around the same level of impact. That isn't just about number of possessions either. Look at the impact Milera makes with his disposals. How do Mackay's compare?

Criticism of David Mackay isn't out of proportion IMO. It's absolutely in proportion to the scrutiny other senior players are under. If you can get a similar output from developing players, it's no wonder people get frustrated at his continual selection.

I dont disagree that Knight, Milera, Hampton and even Seeds should all get a game before him this season. There were a lot of reasons why they didnt last year. Although I think we should have taken more risk. I would even have Thommo on a hbf before DM this year and thats saying something.

But this thread was made to single out and hammer DM based on a pre season game which in context no other players in the entire AFL would be judged on. He was once again middle. Not even worst. I mean Brisbane just beat the premiers for god sake. Thats the type of game we are talking about.

 

[Godallblighty]

No doubt, some people make too much of these pre-season games. But they're not completely meaningless. Proven players don't have to show anything, just blow the cobwebs out. Unproven players though can stake a claim with a decent showing. Mackay is in the unusual position as a senior player that he isn't a strong incumbent - he actually needs to show enough to earn his place. And his performance didn't exactly scream 'pick me'.