2012 Trade Discussion

[ZoBlitz]

Feels to me like GC are going to try to strong-arm Caddy into going to Melbourne.

The extended trade period probably means clubs will try to hold out for longer to get the high prices for their players in these kinds of circumstances.

 

[Football Pope]

Feels to me like GC are going to try to strong-arm Caddy into going to Melbourne.

Or the Dogs......

 

[lionsrthebest]

Before I embark on this I want to point out that answering hypothetical questions/scenarios is pointless. IE "If we could get Franklin as a FA what would we pay?" Who cares, we can't, he's not offering and the whole conversation is futile.

Your hypothetical was so full of holes though I couldn't help but comment...

Goddard was never an option for us, for many reasons, but the major one is that he is too expensive for where we are in our development cycle. So no it's not due diligence to make an offer, it's pointless (if the offer isn't high enough) or reckless (if we win it) because we won't benefit enough from Goddard in our team for the cost to out TPP and possibly our culture.

We don't need another utility, especially an expensive utility which is basically what you're painting him as. The cost isn't worth it because we're not close enough to premiership to jeopardise retaining our young talent in order to put a marquee player into the team.

What we do need is a mature bodied inside midfielder who can provide some structure in and around clearances for our young stars to develop without getting the main tag every week. This builds their confidence and lets them flourish and learn from an older player. Most importantly we need this at a reasonable price, which is what Maloney represents. Maloney might have a specific role (one dimensional) but it's a role we actually need, instead of what Goddard offers which is a lot of versatility (which we already have) at too high of a cost.

Also, we never put our eggs in one basket with Tippett, did you listen to any of Kerr's interviews this week? Tippett was someone we were interested in, and had to get it out the way because he is a marquee player that fits another role we need (KPF). But we always had other things on the go, and were always discussing other options with other players.

It's not like we found out Tippett wanted Sydney and threw our hands in the air with dismay and gave up on the trade period. FYI I didn't want Tippett, and I'm stoked he's chosen Sydney so I can watch the drama play out from afar.

Lets discuss your comments ..they seem patronising
1st we must get facts straight franklin is not a free agent he is on contract/so your comparison is silly to being with ,something like apples vs oranges . I am comparing free agent to free agent apples vs apples
2nd and third points--goddard is too expensive and retaining young talent --Brisbane made an attractive offer to kurt ,they were not going to pay him with peanuts , so brisbane do have some money to play with. Also goddard is 28 when he turns 30 he may be eligible for the veterans list if free agency allows his service to continue on at the new club . ( still awaiting on an answer on this one ) assuming he is eligible part of his salary is not included in the cap. The other point here is that Brown and Black may not be around when Goddard turns 30 so their payments in terms of salary cap are no longer applicable. Goddard's value of experience then becomes more of aFather figure to the young cubs without a brown or a black ,( a mentor whose experience is invaluable) . I believe this also answer your remarks about retaining the young talent in terms salary cap .the other point with black and brown gone in next couple of years we need experience and thats exactly what Goddard would have offered , you cannot have all young players at a club,that is just doomed for failure . For a club to be successful you need the right mixture of experience and young talent
4)your statement -What we do need is a mature bodied inside midfielder
answer--I am sorry you missed the point -Goddard can play in the midfield so i do not understand what you are trying to get at. the added bonus he can play down back

1. Also, we never put our eggs in one basket with Tippett, did you listen to any of Kerr's interviews this week? I will Quote kerr himself if you like -

"We made no secret of the fact last year we were interested in Kurt," Kerr said.
He (kerr) said a mature midfielder would be the primary aim if the Tippett bid fell through.
"It depends what happens with Kurt," Kerr said.


"We would like to bring one mature body to the group. If it doesn't go our way with Kurt, we'll reassess our position.

Seems to me Brisbane were pining all their hopes on Kurt Tippert. we only wanted one mature age player and Tipert was that one man , Do you honesty think that if he had got Tippert Brisbane would still be interested in Moloney. I will tell you in one word "NO'.Moloney is purely an after thought ,when you cannot get who you believe to be the best so go for a second rater . moloney was never our 1st option . i will use analogy its like been invited to party only when the people who have been invited 1st say no , like i stated more an after thought.We were more than interested in Kurt ,we had made him an offer .
and lastly your comment we always had other things on the go, and were always discussing other options with other players. i disagree , i would suggest if i were to believe your comments ,that other deals would have and could have been done but they weren't because we waited for one person ,and one person only and kurt played with us .
So in summary you might think my argument has holes , then yours must have craters



.

 

[karix]

Lets discuss your comments ..they seem patronising
1st we must get facts straight franklin is not a free agent he is on contract/so your comparison is silly to being with ,something like apples vs oranges . I am comparing free agent to free agent apples vs apples

All hypothetical scenarios are as pointless as each other. You are trying to say "my make believe story about unicorns is much more realistic than your make believe story about flying pigs." The point is they're both fantasy's.

2nd and third points--goddard is too expensive and retaining young talent --Brisbane made an attractive offer to kurt ,they were not going to pay him with peanuts , so brisbane do have some money to play with. Also goddard is 28 when he turns 30 he may be eligible for the veterans list if free agency allows his service to continue on at the new club . ( still awaiting on an answer on this one ) assuming he is eligible part of his salary is not included in the cap.

Yes Brisbane made Kurt an attractive offer. That is because he fits a very specific need that we have in our structure. Goddard wanted similar money while being older AND not fitting a specific role, he is an expensive utility by your own admission.

The other point here is that Brown and Black may not be around when Goddard turns 30 so their payments in terms of salary cap are no longer applicable. Goddard's value of experience then becomes more of aFather figure to the young cubs without a brown or a black ,( a mentor whose experience is invaluable).

I don't agree with Goddard being a good role model, he is getting angry/cranky in his old age and doing a few dummy spits, not what we want our guys to emulate.

I believe this also answer your remarks about retaining the young talent in terms salary cap .the other point with black and brown gone in next couple of years we need experience and thats exactly what Goddard would have offered , you cannot have all young players at a club,that is just doomed for failure . For a club to be successful you need the right mixture of experience and young talent

Sounds like you're agreeing with me here but you're trying to fit Goddard into the equation when he is a square peg for a round hole. He's not a good fit, he does not fill a specific hole in our structure. He may be capable of cover some holes over due to his versatility but that's not what we want, because ideally you want to be able to replace a mature temporary player (which is what he would be) with a young player who is similar (or better) in the same role. Frankly we don't want a young player who doesn't quite fit our structure, so why would we want an old player who doesn't quite fit our structure?

4)your statement -What we do need is a mature bodied inside midfielder
answer--I am sorry you missed the point -Goddard can play in the midfield so i do not understand what you are trying to get at. the added bonus he can play down back

Not my statement, the clubs statement. I'm sure Goddard can play midfield, just like I'm sure Blacky could play at full forward. But it's not their ideal role. Once again we don't need another utility, we have plenty of them, in my opinion we'd be far better off getting players who fulfill a specific role/need.

1. Also, we never put our eggs in one basket with Tippett, did you listen to any of Kerr's interviews this week? I will Quote kerr himself if you like -

"We made no secret of the fact last year we were interested in Kurt," Kerr said.

He (kerr) said a mature midfielder would be the primary aim if the Tippett bid fell through.
"It depends what happens with Kurt," Kerr said.


"We would like to bring one mature body to the group. If it doesn't go our way with Kurt, we'll reassess our position.

So in that quote he states we're going for Tippet, and then if that doesn't work we have a plan B. Thank you for proving that we never had our eggs in one basket.

Seems to me Brisbane were pining all their hopes on Kurt Tippert. we only wanted one mature age player and Tipert was that one man , Do you honesty think that if he had got Tippert Brisbane would still be interested in Moloney. I will tell you in one word "NO'.Moloney is purely an after thought ,when you cannot get who you believe to be the best so go for a second rater . moloney was never our 1st option .

You are assuming that because all we've heard about in the media are Moloney, Young and Tippet that they are the only targets. Just think back to Lisle last year, we didn't hear about that trade till the end of trade week, which shows you Kerr doesn't broadcast his intentions for everyone to see (thankfully).

i will use analogy its like been invited to party only when the people who have been invited 1st say no , like i stated more an after thought.We were more than interested in Kurt ,we had made him an offer .
and lastly your comment we always had other things on the go, and were always discussing other options with other players. i disagree , i would suggest if i were to believe your comments ,that other deals would have and could have been done but they weren't because we waited for one person ,and one person only and kurt played with us .

You analogy is flawed because you are assuming we only invited Tippet and then thought about others afterwards, which isn't based on any fact, or advice, it's just something you believe is happening and are trying to sell as truth to support your argument. It's pretty naive to think that our club would only be talk to Tippet and no others during the trade period, because at this stage the Tippet -> Sydney deal isn't signed, so if what you say is true Kerr is sitting by the phone hoping Tippet will call him.

So in summary you might think my argument has holes , then yours must have craters

Of course it has holes, the bulk of your initial post was about a fantasy trade with Goddard and then you spent a good chunk of your reply to mine making up more scenarios about why a trade that cannot happen would be perfect for our team.

Again with this post you've tried to create a narrative that supports your ideas without considering a few important details like facts, and reality... I'm not trying to patronise you, but it's hard not to sound that way because I'm trying to respond to your posts where all you've done is throw a bunch of assumptions into a them and say "TA DA! Agree with me!"

 

[chopperduck]

Goddard would never come to Brisbane, he wouldn't leave Vic. Therefore your theory of chasing Goddard is no better than the club chasing Tippett, at least there was a chance Tippett was coming to QLD. You can't make statements that the club has done nothing but chase Tippett with nothing to back yourself up with. You don't know that Kerr hasn't been busy doing other deals. The only difference is that because Tippett was going to take a large chunk of cap space, we needed to know if he was ours or not before we got other things going. That is a big difference to not doing anything else.

Most of our trades in the past are fairly low key and not much is known publicly about who we are chasing basically until we get the trade done, if anything the past backs up Karix point that we would have other things in the works. For that matter, who even says we are going to make any trades this year. The Kerr comment was that we want to bring in at least 1 mature body into the team, and if that isn't Tippett we will look for a midfielder, which Young and Moloney are our targets via free agency so it doesn't cost us anything trade wise.

 

[dlanod]

What a joke, GC want two first rounders for Caddy

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/tough-talk-on-caddy-and-tippett-20121008-279d1.html

Would be ironic if he ended up at the demons thru the PS after not bidding on viney re:F/S...sort has the feel about, whats that saying "never give a sucker an even break"?

Like most of these "outrageous" or "joke" claims for trades, it's basic haggling. If you want to sell something for the best price, you don't walk up and say "Hey, buy this for what I paid for it". You say "This is what I want", they counterclaim and you negotiate to somewhere in between.

 

[Gabbatoir]

Like most of these "outrageous" or "joke" claims for trades, it's basic haggling. If you want to sell something for the best price, you don't walk up and say "Hey, buy this for what I paid for it". You say "This is what I want", they counterclaim and you negotiate to somewhere in between.

Haggling 101

 

[The Mellow Johnies]

At the risk of being shown the door, would anyone entertain the thought of us trading pick 8 for Luke Parker + 22?

I rate him very, very highly.

2 late 1st rd picks to grab 2 x KPPs

 

[Ironmonger]

Like most of these "outrageous" or "joke" claims for trades, it's basic haggling. If you want to sell something for the best price, you don't walk up and say "Hey, buy this for what I paid for it". You say "This is what I want", they counterclaim and you negotiate to somewhere in between.

I'd have thought it was a risky strategy in this case. You might scare off potential suitors and end up with only a couple of buyers, reducing the price.

 

[dlanod]

I'd have thought it was a risky strategy in this case. You might scare off potential suitors and end up with only a couple of buyers, reducing the price.

There were identical posts when it came out that GWS was asking for two first round picks for a mini draft selection. Worked out alright.

They've already established their suitors (Geelong, North, Saints IIRC). Now they get to suss out whether they can get anything out of them in addition to a mid-first round pick.

 

[lionsrthebest]

Goddard would never come to Brisbane, he wouldn't leave Vic. Therefore your theory of chasing Goddard is no better than the club chasing Tippett, at least there was a chance Tippett was coming to QLD. You can't make statements that the club has done nothing but chase Tippett with nothing to back yourself up with. You don't know that Kerr hasn't been busy doing other deals. The only difference is that because Tippett was going to take a large chunk of cap space, we needed to know if he was ours or not before we got other things going. That is a big difference to not doing anything else.

Most of our trades in the past are fairly low key and not much is known publicly about who we are chasing basically until we get the trade done, if anything the past backs up Karix point that we would have other things in the works. For that matter, who even says we are going to make any trades this year. The Kerr comment was that we want to bring in at least 1 mature body into the team, and if that isn't Tippett we will look for a midfielder, which Young and Moloney are our targets via free agency so it doesn't cost us anything trade wise.

Goddard won't leave Victoria -- Tell mitchy wanted to go to Fremantle -- went to Melbourne - good example . goddard is three times the player of Moloney - if monoley was so good why did not essendon sign him rather than go for Goddard. I am sure we making deals possibly regards picks and players . I am solely taking about free agents not about anything else

 

[Bucking Beads]

We don't need Luke Parker.. We've got Josh Green

 

[Hollow Knight]

Goddard won't leave Victoria -- Tell mitchy wanted to go to Fremantle -- went to Melbourne - good example . goddard is three times the player of Moloney - if monoley was so good why did not essendon sign him rather than go for Goddard.

Because Essendon have different needs to us and are in a different stage of their list development.

Your arguments have done little to sway me from my impression that you just wanted to nab a "big fish" regardless of our needs.

 

[jackess]

I like how the cynical supporters presume that Kerr and co. haven't done their homework despite the fact we have little idea of what they are going to do, while the optimistic ones are happy to sit back and see what happens. Day 1 of trade week has shown a clear separation of these two different types of supporters on this board.

 

[lionsrthebest]

Because Essendon have different needs to us and are in a different stage of their list development.

Your arguments have done little to sway me from my impression that you just wanted to nab a "big fish" regardless of our needs.

purely subjective ,you say red a good colour i say blue . Goddard is, i feel the best free agent , who can play midfield ,Thats what Kerr wanted a mature age midfield , the big up side he can play own back if required as well .remember he was a 1st pick in the draft who has not been a disappointment. as KB always states and that's my take.

 

[jackess]

Who's to say we didn't have a chat to Goddard's manager

 

[Skoob]

purely subjective ,you say red a good colour i say blue . Goddard is, i feel the best free agent , who can play midfield ,Thats what Kerr wanted a mature age midfield , the big up side he can play own back if required as well .remember he was a 1st pick in the draft who has not been a disappointment. as KB always states and that's my take.

Hey mate, yelling won't make your arguments any more sensible.
Maybe read through some posts of others to see what others think and form an idea on the nouse of some posters here.

 

[Skoob]

Who's to say we didn't have a chat to Goddard's manager

^ The other point I was going to make. Some funny assumptions being made this week.

 

[spotthedog1]

So in that quote he states we're going for Tippet, and then if that doesn't work we have a plan B. Thank you for proving that we never had our eggs in one basket.

I don't really care about the Goddard/Franklin/big-trade arguments, but your statement here is flawed a little bit. As was suggested, you should've read some Rob Kerr interviews over the last few weeks... he actually said, on a couple of occasions, that this was relatively what we are doing... quotes like:

This morning, Brisbane national talent manager Rob Kerr admitted the Lions had "most of our eggs in the Kurt Tippett basket’’ and the club was waiting on a response from the forward.

THE BRISBANE Lions continue to put their free agency eggs into the Kurt Tippett basket and will continue to do so until the Adelaide big man finally makes up his mind on which club he will join in 2013.

 

[Old Den]

I like how the cynical supporters presume that Kerr and co. haven't done their homework despite the fact we have little idea of what they are going to do, while the optimistic ones are happy to sit back and see what happens. Day 1 of trade week has shown a clear separation of these two different types of supporters on this board.

Yeah...Carl Sagan's commentary on some wild early speculation on Venus.

Venus is covered by thick cloud.

It is probably very hot and steamy there.

Where it is hot and steamy there are swamps.

What lives in swamps?...dinosaurs.

Observation: Can't see a thing....Conclusion: Dinosaurs.

 

[CoZi36]

Hoping we pick up Brent Moloney - I think we will.

 

[Triple R]

purely subjective ,you say red a good colour i say blue . Goddard is, i feel the best free agent , who can play midfield ,Thats what Kerr wanted a mature age midfield , the big up side he can play own back if required as well .remember he was a 1st pick in the draft who has not been a disappointment. as KB always states and that's my take.

Goddard doesn't fit our needs because of his salary (this is in no way saying that he wouldn't fit in any team in the afl on-field). Someone like Moloney can relieve Black and the load on our other developing players for far less cash and do a serviceable job. Essendon would've signed Brent if Goddard wasn't available to them. They are in desperate need of help for Jobe. Do you not see that? Also, to carry on as if we didn't have a plan B-Z regarding Tippett/trade period is ludicrous. How can you not see what Kerr and co have done since their employment started with the Lions and understand that they are smart negotiators and usually get a fair deal. This Goddard talk is pointless. He is signed to Essendon, we have no hope, let it go.

 

[cmt26]

Who's to say we didn't have a chat to Goddard's manager

I thought I'd just add an insight into the AFL world, to help clarify the idea of whether we do/don't do our homework prior to the trading period.

A number of my ex team mates play in the AFL, one in particular that I'm quite good mates with, as we were born a day apart and had all our local footy and schooling together. I was talking to his dad at one of our club functions about whether he was contracted for next season (he is until the end of 2013). His dad told me that there were four clubs were having a nibble (He did list the clubs, we weren't one of them), and were all interested in bringing him across to their clubs for 2013.

Now, in the papers, internet and even on bigfooty, I have only seen his name mentioned once as being a trade option/up for trade.

There is a lot that goes on behind closed doors that even the best reporters don't get access to, so while there may be nothing out there that says we tried to lure Goddard/any other player. I would bet that we would have at least had the conversation with their manager to gauge interest and to see what it would take to get the player across. More than that, club planning through the football department, specifically recruit with what our team will look like in 3-5 years time and what we will need to bring in through the door to achieve long term success.

My end point, AFL is a multi-million dollar business, and like all business, no decisions are made and stones left unturned without extensive research and future planning. Have faith in the recruiting team, even if we haven't heard much, they will be working tirelessly like last year to keep bringing the right people through the doors of our footy club.

 

[jackess]

There's also the fact that Goddard is overrated and not worth anywhere near $800K/yr.

Rich, Redden and Rockliff are just about his equal and they are all on 4-500K/yr.

 

[chopperduck]

We don't need to go after a big name player, the only reason we were looking at Tippett is because he wanted to go home. We aren't getting a big name player for the hell of it. Goddard won't leave Vic, and he doesn't fit our team needs. People do realize players have to want to come to the club, it's not as simple as you just go out and buy Goddard.