List Mgmt. 2014 Free Agency, draft and trades news and discussion **Not the trade hypotheticals thread"

[Easy Slips Catch]

...Do you think the footy club got TOB and Kelly right? Or looking at things now would you take Talia and Close?

Every kid drafted is a bit of a lotto. On raw skills and ability, TO is/was a no brainer. Talia V Kelly is a win to the doggies but you cant win them all.

I like Brand and Heatherly, they are the best two KPD prospects we have had in a while. Mitch Thorp is still only 25, would have been handy if he had worked out. Riley Milne is only 23. We did draft Luke McFarlane.

We get most things right but our recent KPD history is not flash. We do have holes in our tall depth. Carrying Lowden and Grimley for so long has not helped.

 

[Carcass]

Every kid drafted is a bit of a lotto. On raw skills and ability, TO is/was a no brainer. Talia V Kelly is a win to the doggies but you cant win them all.

I like Brand and Heatherly, they are the best two KPD prospects we have had in a while. Mitch Thorp is still only 25, would have been handy if he had worked out. Riley Milne is only 23. We did draft Luke McFarlane.

We get most things right but our recent KPD history is not flash. We do have holes in our tall depth. Carrying Lowden and Grimley for so long has not helped.

My point and I am trying to put forward reasons why, even if the way its coming across isn't liked by some.

And not just recent mate - 16 years since we drafted a 200 game CHB.

 

[savagelunchbox]

My point and I am trying to put forward reasons why, even if the way its coming across isn't liked by some.

And not just recent mate - 16 years since we drafted a 200 game CHB.

How many games has Roughead played? He'd be close.

 

[tige19]

I'm predicting that five years from now we'll be happy with Tim O'Brien & Jordan Kelly - very happy.

Kelly would lucky to be around one would think past 2014

 

[eldorado]

If the cut was done now, I couldn't see Kelly surviving...

 

[TheFourPillars]

If the cut was done now, I couldn't see Kelly surviving...

I think there might be a few ahead of him currently just quietly

 

[Brant]

I think our recruiting of KPF over KPD is a conscious thing, not that our recruiters can't do it.

IMO, there are about 6-8 types of players:
- KPF
- KPD
- Ruck (KPF)
- Mids (HB)
- Wingers (HB/HF)
- FP/BP (Rotating in&under mids)
- FLankers (Wings)

We've been trying to make players versatile, perhaps adding the bracketed role to their natural role. Some players such as Hodge & Burgoyne can almost play anywhere (Utility type).

Big players take time. It's that simple. Time to mature. Time to grow. Time to learn how to use their strength & size. Time to develop enough such that their opponent doesn't dominate them with superior strength & size. KPF can usually be serviceable earlier, likely because they can still be effective without their contest-losses resulting in opposition goals.

Also, there are only so many KP-sized players + Ruckmen that you can carry on the list for 5 yrs, waiting for them to develop. We have Lowden, Grimley, T'OB, Brand & Ceglar on our list with a total of (approx.) 5 games between then & they've been on our list a collective (approx.) 15 years. We also hold Spangher/Cheney who for approx. 5 years combined service, who contribute for 10 games per year. Maybe 7 players for 20 years that have contributed for 50 games. Our 2 Rucks in Grimley & Lowden are both exceptional movers - not Hale/McEvoy types - presumably our attempt at creating a NicNat/Grundy type option. The others are mainly forwards (not Cheney), Spangher & Brand of which we're using in defence. Imagine if we also had to carry 2/3 developing KPD? That would be a quarter of our squad geared toward trying to fill 5/22 on Game Day - most of whom are unuseable due to their lack of physical development.

Knowing this, I think we've made the conscious decision that we'll target KPF & to a lesser degree, Ruckmen that can play Forward. And, we'll trade/swap/steal KPD. That way, we're never more than a year away from having an AFL ready KPD & we hold the majority of our list spots open for filling the majority of positions come Game Day. This is how I can rationalise us stock-piling KPF & steering clear of KPD, yet having sustained success through bringing guys like Lake, Croad & Gibson (& Spangher) in from other clubs.

This, to me, is how people can use Clarko's 2 flags (3 x GF in 6 yrs) as justification/rationalisation of the concept. They're not resting on the laurels of the past, they're referencing past success as evidence that the process works. I, too, wish we'd taken Talia instead of Kelly - but that would mean stepping away from the plan - the plan that's delivered 3 x GF in 6 yrs (like you Carcass - I still wish we did it). So, if we start breaking the plan every draft then we really don't have a list management plan anymore & we end up like St Kilda with plenty of amazing players over the years; relatively dominant in parts, but without a cup in the same period that we've won 10.

FWIW, I don't think Dowler/Thorp/Boumann were poor decisions by the talent scouts. They were the best available KP-sized talents that fit our list model. They squibbed it - not the talent scouts. Tim Boyle & Trent Croad were others who perfectly fit the model & should've paid us off but through injury were less effective than they should've been.

Sorry All, for the thesis & taking up your Saturday...

 

[eldorado]

I think there might be a few ahead of him currently just quietly

Three names spring to mind immediately, but the other two have a valuable commodity called 'centimetres' which sometimes bestows preferential treatment...

 

[tige19]

I think our recruiting of KPF over KPD is a conscious thing, not that our recruiters can't do it.

IMO, there are about 6-8 types of players:
- KPF
- KPD
- Ruck (KPF)
- Mids (HB)
- Wingers (HB/HF)
- FP/BP (Rotating in&under mids)
- FLankers (Wings)

We've been trying to make players versatile, perhaps adding the bracketed role to their natural role. Some players such as Hodge & Burgoyne can almost play anywhere (Utility type).

Big players take time. It's that simple. Time to mature. Time to grow. Time to learn how to use their strength & size. Time to develop enough such that their opponent doesn't dominate them with superior strength & size. KPF can usually be serviceable earlier, likely because they can still be effective without their contest-losses resulting in opposition goals.

Also, there are only so many KP-sized players + Ruckmen that you can carry on the list for 5 yrs, waiting for them to develop. We have Lowden, Grimley, T'OB, Brand & Ceglar on our list with a total of (approx.) 5 games between then & they've been on our list a collective (approx.) 15 years. We also hold Spangher/Cheney who for approx. 5 years combined service, who contribute for 10 games per year. Maybe 7 players for 20 years that have contributed for 50 games. Our 2 Rucks in Grimley & Lowden are both exceptional movers - not Hale/McEvoy types - presumably our attempt at creating a NicNat/Grundy type option. The others are mainly forwards (not Cheney), Spangher & Brand of which we're using in defence. Imagine if we also had to carry 2/3 developing KPD? That would be a quarter of our squad geared toward trying to fill 5/22 on Game Day - most of whom are unuseable due to their lack of physical development.

Knowing this, I think we've made the conscious decision that we'll target KPF & to a lesser degree, Ruckmen that can play Forward. And, we'll trade/swap/steal KPD. That way, we're never more than a year away from having an AFL ready KPD & we hold the majority of our list spots open for filling the majority of positions come Game Day. This is how I can rationalise us stock-piling KPF & steering clear of KPD, yet having sustained success through bringing guys like Lake, Croad & Gibson (& Spangher) in from other clubs.

This, to me, is how people can use Clarko's 2 flags (3 x GF in 6 yrs) as justification/rationalisation of the concept. They're not resting on the laurels of the past, they're referencing past success as evidence that the process works. I, too, wish we'd taken Talia instead of Kelly - but that would mean stepping away from the plan - the plan that's delivered 3 x GF in 6 yrs (like you Carcass - I still wish we did it). So, if we start breaking the plan every draft then we really don't have a list management plan anymore & we end up like St Kilda with plenty of amazing players over the years; relatively dominant in parts, but without a cup in the same period that we've won 10.

FWIW, I don't think Dowler/Thorp/Boumann were poor decisions by the talent scouts. They were the best available KP-sized talents that fit our list model. They squibbed it - not the talent scouts. Tim Boyle & Trent Croad were others who perfectly fit the model & should've paid us off but through injury were less effective than they should've been.

Sorry All, for the thesis & taking up your Saturday...

Great read!

I do however think you're complicating a simple concept. Yes we have a list management strategy, it was blantantly obvious 7-8 years ago we focused on bringing in talented key forwards and highly skilled midfield/flanker types preferably with a left peg. We then used trading and poaching of developed players to fill voids in defensive and utility roles ( burger/Gibson/Cheney/Spangher).

All of the above is no excuse to really ignore an area which we've struggled in traditionally for the last decade or so. We have had the chance over and over and over again to take a good KPD at draft time and have refused to do so, the effects of that has been obvious in our losses this year. There are a range of reasons for our losses but the hugely contributing factor has been the fact Cheney has been rag dolled on both occasions, our lack of quality KPD kids is very worrying.

For what it's worth I don't see Frawley as our savior, I'd like to see the club go and draft a kid and make a play for Nathan Brown who'd cost half of what Frawley is demanding.

 

[dermott]

Great read!

I do however think you're complicating a simple concept. Yes we have a list management strategy, it was blantantly obvious 7-8 years ago we focused on bringing in talented key forwards and highly skilled midfield/flanker types preferably with a left peg. We then used trading and poaching of developed players to fill voids in defensive and utility roles ( burger/Gibson/Cheney/Spangher).

All of the above is no excuse to really ignore an area which we've struggled in traditionally for the last decade or so. We have had the chance over and over and over again to take a good KPD at draft time and have refused to do so, the effects of that has been obvious in our losses this year. There are a range of reasons for our losses but the hugely contributing factor has been the fact Cheney has been rag dolled on both occasions, our lack of quality KPD kids is very worrying.

For what it's worth I don't see Frawley as our savior, I'd like to see the club go and draft a kid and make a play for Nathan Brown who'd cost half of what Frawley is demanding.

Is that the same Nathan Brown who has just done his shoulder for the second time this year?
Poor old Nathan is a bit injury prone for my liking.

 

[Bedi]

what's West Coast's Josh Kennedy's contract status? he'd be pricey, but reckon we could afford him and would slot in very nicely

 

[badboybobba]

Every kid drafted is a bit of a lotto. On raw skills and ability, TO is/was a no brainer. Talia V Kelly is a win to the doggies but you cant win them all.

I like Brand and Heatherly, they are the best two KPD prospects we have had in a while. Mitch Thorp is still only 25, would have been handy if he had worked out. Riley Milne is only 23. We did draft Luke McFarlane.

We get most things right but our recent KPD history is not flash. We do have holes in our tall depth. Carryingnot Lowden and Grimley for so long has not helped.

I think you will find it's the Talia from Adelaide not the dogs.
Massive win to the crows there but I agree there is no crystal ball when it comes to drafting.

 

[Jason Dunstall]

Such a creative criticism.

I laughed.......

 

[Levi_Hawk]

I think you will find it's the Talia from Adelaide not the dogs.
Massive win to the crows there but I agree there is no crystal ball when it comes to drafting.

It was definitely the Talia at the Bulldogs who was drafted in the same year as Kelly.

 

[Steven Tyler]

Three names spring to mind immediately, but the other two have a valuable commodity called 'centimetres' which sometimes bestows preferential treatment...

Grimley and Lowden must have pics of Clarko in compromising positions!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

what's West Coast's Josh Kennedy's contract status? he'd be pricey, but reckon we could afford him and would slot in very nicely

He's a WA boy, and zero chance of leaving.

 

[Spursfan]

I think you will find it's the Talia from Adelaide not the dogs.
Massive win to the crows there but I agree there is no crystal ball when it comes to drafting.

Carlton are crying over Adelaide's Talia, they picked Kane Lucas.

 

[BigAl3001]

Considering he's from Lake Grace, WA then it might be awkward

ooops my bad!

but we are the family club!

 

[HBF]

Hey guys - heard an interesting rumour about the Hawks over the weekend. A buddy of mine who does have some serious contacts at Richmond has heard that you guys are into Cotchin big time when he comes out of contract. He believes this is a big reason why he only signed a 2 year contract that only ties him to Richmond until the end of 2015.

Please take this in the manner it has been delivered - hearing a rumour from someone who wouldn't lie to me and thought you'd be interested.

 

[WWSD]

Hey guys - heard an interesting rumour about the Hawks over the weekend. A buddy of mine who does have some serious contacts at Richmond has heard that you guys are into Cotchin big time when he comes out of contract. He believes this is a big reason why he only signed a 2 year contract that only ties him to Richmond until the end of 2015.

Please take this in the manner it has been delivered - hearing a rumour from someone who wouldn't lie to me and thought you'd be interested.

Would love Cotchin at the Hawks. Wouldn't be surprised at all if we were the club that's going after him.

 

[Hodge2NormSmith]

Hey guys - heard an interesting rumour about the Hawks over the weekend. A buddy of mine who does have some serious contacts at Richmond has heard that you guys are into Cotchin big time when he comes out of contract. He believes this is a big reason why he only signed a 2 year contract that only ties him to Richmond until the end of 2015.

Please take this in the manner it has been delivered - hearing a rumour from someone who wouldn't lie to me and thought you'd be interested.

Yes very interested, hard to see the Captain of a club leave but quality young A grade mids would be a priority for us.

 

[Brant]

Would love Cotchin at the Hawks. Wouldn't be surprised at all if we were the club that's going after him.

If this is/was accurate, is it possibly the case that Richmond would seek a trade at the end of this year to maintain some control & not risk losing him for a lot less at the end of next year?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Cotchin, you say?

Well, ok. If we have to.

 

[HBF]

Yes very interested, hard to see the Captain of a club leave but quality young A grade mids would be a priority for us.

I thought the same thing.
What I know about Cotchin is that he's a pretty loyal young bloke, so it'd have to be some sort of serious deal from the Hawks to get him out of Richmond.

 

[dipper86]

A club captain jumping ship......can't see it happening.