List Mgmt. 2015 AFL Draft - what type of players should we be looking at & who do we take? (Poll added)

[LordLucifer]

That list hasn't sold me any further on Harry McKay at #8. I could maybe get on board at #11

Talk about splitting hairs !!!

 

[LordLucifer]

A key forwars is determined by their ability to take marks on the lead and kick goals not how ******* tall they are

Great, let's look at that factor shall we .....

Genuine key position players currently at the club :

Jones (198cm) - couldn't catch a cold let alone kick a goal, will be delisted next year
Casboult (199cm) - still hasn't mastered the art of kicking but has elite marking skills
Rowe (198cm) - one good season and apart from that is a complete dud, will be delisted at the end of 2016
Jamison (193cm) - undersized defender who is now spent due to shoulder issues, won't be there for much longer
Jacksh (196cm) - will not make it purely as a stand alone key position player
Foster (198cm) - speculative late draftee who has done bugger all to date

How the hell are we going to get anywhere if that is our raft of key position depth when 2-3 of them will be booted next year ??

It's time to bring in some newbs, any argument against that is sheer folly !!

 

[HalAlaric]

Great, let's look at that factor shall we .....

Genuine key position players currently at the club :

Jones (198cm) - couldn't catch a cold let alone kick a goal, will be delisted next year
Casboult (199cm) - still hasn't mastered the art of kicking but has elite marking skills
Rowe (198cm) - one good season and apart from that is a complete dud, will be delisted at the end of 2016
Jamison (193cm) - undersized defender who is now spent due to shoulder issues, won't be there for much longer
Jacksh (196cm) - will not make it purely as a stand alone key position player
Foster (198cm) - speculative late draftee who has done bugger all to date

How the hell are we going to get anywhere if that is our raft of key position depth when 2-3 of them will be booted next year ??

It's time to bring in some newbs, any argument against that is sheer folly !!

It's not all dire straits....
2105 draft will include 2 key position players (inc. Weitering and for arguments sake Burton ) and 3 others (inc. SOSOS)
Even if at the end of 2016 we delist or retire all of Jones, Rowe, and Jamison, all we need to do is nab a couple of talls in trade week (Tomlinson and for arguments sake Wright) and we have rejuvenated our key stocks that would include:

Casboult (199cm Fwd) - Elite marking / kicking skills slowly developing
Wright (203cm Fwd) - Very little game time as still super young. Would love to grab him somehow although not likely
Foster (198cm Fwd) - Body needs to fill out but only turning 21yo in 2016
Burton (190cm Fwd) - Athletic and a good chance we could pick up with #11
Jacksh (196cm Fwd/Def) - Body needs to fill out but still quite early days
Tomlinson (193cm Fwd/Def) - Great swing man and could definitely play an important part in the blues future
White (190cm Def/Fwd) - More of a depth player and has been played on opposition talls before
Plowman (191cm Def) - Can play on smalls and talls due to athleticism. Would lose in a one-on-one to a Hawkins though
Weitering (190cm Def) - Our #1 pick

So not a bad result all in all. Lets just be smart as a club and not panic!!!

 

[Coona Blues]

Great, let's look at that factor shall we .....

Genuine key position players currently at the club :

Jones (198cm) - couldn't catch a cold let alone kick a goal, will be delisted next year
Casboult (199cm) - still hasn't mastered the art of kicking but has elite marking skills
Rowe (198cm) - one good season and apart from that is a complete dud, will be delisted at the end of 2016
Jamison (193cm) - undersized defender who is now spent due to shoulder issues, won't be there for much longer
Jacksh (196cm) - will not make it purely as a stand alone key position player
Foster (198cm) - speculative late draftee who has done bugger all to date

How the hell are we going to get anywhere if that is our raft of key position depth when 2-3 of them will be booted next year ??

It's time to bring in some newbs, any argument against that is sheer folly !!

While our key forward stocks are far from perfect, they are not quite as bad as you want to represent.

btw Foster is 196cm, a 20yo just finished his first season punctuated by a raft of injuries. Jaksch just
turned 21, so like Foster, way too early to write off despite pressure from supporters like yourself.

By trade or draft we have/will add Plowman, at 193cm perhaps undersized, Weitering at 195cm, and
universally regarded as a superstar in the making ready to perform (to at least an adequate standard)
immediately, and young SOS, Jack is still growing, with one recent report on here having him at 194cm.

No doubt the failure to get Tomlinson was a huge set back for our list management team. It is pertinemt
to note that he was regarded as the key to our forward structure and is only 193cm. Theories of the Sheik
are somewhat dispelled.

While I would like a 3rd tallish type in the draft, I could accept JW and SOS only, along with three mids, on the
proviso that one of them is Oliver, or similar bigger bodied type. Like most, I believe it would seem a given that
if Curnow, Francis or Weideman slipped to 8 we should grab them. McKay did not overly appeal to me watching
the championships, and I like to go on "gut feel". I would not discount him being a decent player down the
track. We are rebuilding and need bankable talent. Also Weitering and Jack are both December "foals", as are
the McKay boys, how many "late bloomers" do we want?

A quick look at both best 22 and seconds possible/probable line ups display an overwhelming shortage of
genuine midfielders. It is most conceivable that Cripps, Murphy, Gibbs, Curnow, Graham, Thomas and
Kerridge line up in the top team. Other than peripheral outside mid come pinch hitter types, we would be
left with only Whiley as a genuine midfielder in the 2's (hopefully he pushes for senior spot too). This
maybe includes Sumner, Lamb, Tutt, Boekhorst, DVR, Gowers, Clem..............

We have an over riding need for midfielders. The crap that we should wait for next year to stock up on
midfielders is totally misguided. What trade bait do we have to get multiple top end picks? We have the
picks this year. We use them on the best available talent that fits our needs.

We do not take speculative talls over genuine quality midfielders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[My name geoff]

While our key forward stocks are far from perfect, they are not quite as bad as you want to represent.

btw Foster is 196cm, a 20yo just finished his first season punctuated by a raft of injuries. Jaksch just
turned 21, so like Foster, way too early to write off despite pressure from supporters like yourself.

By trade or draft we have/will add Plowman, at 193cm perhaps undersized, Weitering at 195cm, and
universally regarded as a superstar in the making ready to perform (to at least an adequate standard)
immediately, and young SOS, Jack is still growing, with one recent report on here having him at 194cm.

No doubt the failure to get Tomlinson was a huge set back for our list management team. It is pertinemt
to note that he was regarded as the key to our forward structure and is only 193cm. Theories of the Sheik
are somewhat dispelled.

While I would like a 3rd tallish type in the draft, I could accept JW and SOS only, along with three mids, on the
proviso that one of them is Oliver, or similar bigger bodied type. Like most, I believe it would seem a given that
if Curnow, Francis or Weideman slipped to 8 we should grab them. McKay did not overly appeal to me watching
the championships, and I like to go on "gut feel". I would not discount him being a decent player down the
track. We are rebuilding and need bankable talent. Also Weitering and Jack are both December "foals", as are
the McKay boys, how many "late bloomers" do we want?

A quick look at both best 22 and seconds possible/probable line ups display an overwhelming shortage of
genuine midfielders. It is most conceivable that Cripps, Murphy, Gibbs, Curnow, Graham, Thomas and
Kerridge line up in the top team. Other than peripheral outside mid come pinch hitter types, we would be
left with only Whiley as a genuine midfielder in the 2's (hopefully he pushes for senior spot too). This
maybe includes Sumner, Lamb, Tutt, Boekhorst, DVR, Gowers, Clem..............

We have an over riding need for midfielders. The crap that we should wait for next year to stock up on
midfielders is totally misguided. What trade bait do we have to get multiple top end picks? We have the
picks this year. We use them on the best available talent that fits our needs.

We do not take speculative talls over genuine quality midfielders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree with this.

Also need to factor in that Murphy and Thomas won't be around forever and are both injury proned. Leaves Cripps and Gibbs(debatable) as our only A-grade quality

Its often a perceived notion that when a team cant score easily enough that they need a KPP to fix the problem. Take freo for example, common opinion is that they need to find a key forward which should solve all their problems and take them to a flag. But if we look closely at their list its a lack of A grade quality output from their midfield/flanks that's doing them in..

Fyfe, Sandilands, Mundy, Barlow, Hill, Neale, Johnson, Walters, and Pearce, Mayne(possibly) give them consistent A-grade output

Hawthorn have Roughead, Rioli, Bruest, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Gibson, Gunston, Burgoyne, Hill, Smith, Birchall, Puopolo, McEvoy, Hale and Shiels.

The Difference between the 2 sides is not Freo's lack of key position quality, its that the Hawks have 6 consistent A grade performer's more than what the Dockers do.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

Would take H. McKay at #19. Just WAY too big a risk to take earlier. As evidenced above. The 200cm KPF is a very recent trend. Those around the 192 - 196cm mark seem to be the most productive. Also, as an underager just leaves more room for a bust.

With our four draft picks I want three of the four to play 200+ games. We've just got to nail it. Now if big Harry is there at #19 and is best available, then great. He'll either play 30 games or 300.

If we take a forward early, I'd much prefer Weiderman or Burton. They just look more likely types IMO.

 

[BringBackSimmo]

Idk why but Harry McKay makes me think of Justin Koschitzke

 

[Sheephead]

Read that the other McKay, B not H could be the better player. Didn't think he could make the grade but after watching H play well at Warragul and in U18 he thought maybe he could. Played half a season and was pretty solid. If H is gone, which I reckon he might be at 19, then B may be worth a punt.

The other one I read of, is a kid that has trained with us, Sam Skinner. No highlight reels because he did a knee and missed 90% of the season, but is rated real high.

And anyone knocking Burton as injury prone, I read an article that his is a broken bone that has healed very strong. Ligaments are a totally different animal.

 

[zeeCFC]

To think Schache, Curnow, Weideman, Hipwood, McKay, Burton could all go in the top 15 as tall forwards. Reckon Skinner could have pushed for a spot too if he didn't have that injury.

 

[KohPhi]

To think Schache, Curnow, Weideman, Hipwood, McKay, Burton could all go in the top 15 as tall forwards. Reckon Skinner could have pushed for a spot too if he didn't have that injury.

Wouldn't be oppossed Skinner at 19 if we grab a couple of mids at 8 and 11.
1.Weitering
8.Oliver
11.Gresham
19.Skinner

 

[GoBlues!]

Its often a perceived notion that when a team cant score easily enough that they need a KPP to fix the problem. Take freo for example, common opinion is that they need to find a key forward which should solve all their problems and take them to a flag. But if we look closely at their list its a lack of A grade quality output from their midfield/flanks that's doing them in..

Fyfe, Sandilands, Mundy, Barlow, Hill, Neale, Johnson, Walters, and Pearce, Mayne(possibly) give them consistent A-grade output

Hawthorn have Roughead, Rioli, Bruest, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Gibson, Gunston, Burgoyne, Hill, Smith, Birchall, Puopolo, McEvoy, Hale and Shiels.

The Difference between the 2 sides is not Freo's lack of key position quality, its that the Hawks have 6 consistent A grade performer's more than what the Dockers do.

Good point Geoff. Very similar to what I heard a few weeks ago when Freo bombed out in the finals.

It also relates to the style of game they play, Ross Lyons close checking defensive game plan doesn't generate as many inside 50s as say the Hawks and WCE, which makes it tough for the likes of Pav who get limited opportunities.

In the end a spread of goal kickers mostly from mid size forward players and a quality midfield like the Hawks players you've listed above is the way to go.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Don't believe everything you read.

Do you mean I shouldn't believe what he says himself? Can you tell me if there's anything else to it?

I do know he also had the highest skin folds of all draft candidates before he was even drafted. Might be the reason he went at #18.

 

[HARKER]

Do you mean I shouldn't believe what he says himself? Can you tell me if there's anything else to it?

I do know he also had the highest skin folds of all draft candidates before he was even drafted. Might be the reason he went at #18.

Ask yourself why he may have said it.

There was nothing in Watsons pre-seasons training, nor his efforts on the field in the past couple of years, that smacked of not trying..............others maybe, but not so much Watson.

 

[My name geoff]

Good point Geoff. Very similar to what I heard a few weeks ago when Freo bombed out in the finals.

It also relates to the style of game they play, Ross Lyons close checking defensive game plan doesn't generate as many inside 50s as say the Hawks and WCE, which makes it tough for the likes of Pav who get limited opportunities.

In the end a spread of goal kickers mostly from mid size forward players and a quality midfield like the Hawks players you've listed above is the way to go.

The same could be said about Lyon's St.Kilda grand final teams. They had a Gun KPF in Reiwoldt, backed up by Kosi, but then they surrounded the flanks and mids with the likes of Jones, McQaulter, Gwilt, Peak, Ray, Baker, Eddy, Dempster, Clarke and Schneider who are all B-grade at best

 

[Cipher]

Do you mean I shouldn't believe what he says himself? Can you tell me if there's anything else to it?

He is trying to get picked up after the worst team in the comp has let him go. Better to claim lack of effort rather than ability as the fault.

 

[No1Suspect]

So no problems... lets just take another mid and let Harry McKay disappear off to another club... and then in 3 years time when he starts kicking 40-50 goals a year... and the mid you wanted taken has either made it or not, we can revisit this conversation.

Whats to say the polar opposite doesnt happen though? Its all speculation.

 

[Dramoth]

The same could be said about Lyon's St.Kilda grand final teams. They had a Gun KPF in Reiwoldt, backed up by Kosi, but then they surrounded the flanks and mids with the likes of Jones, McQaulter, Gwilt, Peak, Ray, Baker, Eddy, Dempster, Clarke and Schneider who are all B-grade at best

One bad bounce to draw a grand final... and you are putting the blame on the mids? damn... you are one hard taskmaster.

But lets have a look at the mids and flankers you didnt name...
Gram - good player
Gilbert - reasonable tall defender who can also run through the middle.
Blake - played 219 games for the Aints, if he was B grade I doubt he would have played 100.
BJ Goddard - definitely an A grader
Dal Santo - the mighty midget... definitely an A grade player.
Montagna - A grade all the way.
Hayes - shit... another A grader.

And personally I think that you are doing Farren Ray an injustice... he is a more than handy footballer who has clocked up over 200 games in his AFL career.

Now lets have a look at their talls.
Sam Fisher (191cm) AA once and B&F twice... good third tall defender.
Zac Dawson (197cm) Forever to be known as a very average defender and Nick Reiwoldt's personal condom holder
Justin Koschitzke (197cm) He isnt known as Kos-Shit-Ske for nothing. Averaged just over 1 goal/for his entire career.

And finally their only A grade KPP... Nick Reiwoldt... he is a gun... has averaged just over 2 goals/game for nearly 300 games.

2009, they had almost exactly the same team... except that they also had Luke Ball running through the midfield.

I would actually rate their starting midfield/flanker group as an A- with the support group being B graders. Which is pretty much exactly how you want your team setup. In the replay, it was the lack of quality in front of goal and in defence that ultimately cost the Aint's the replay grand final.

 

[My name geoff]

One bad bounce to draw a grand final... and you are putting the blame on the mids? damn... you are one hard taskmaster.
View attachment 190362
But lets have a look at the mids and flankers you didnt name...
Gram - good player
Gilbert - reasonable tall defender who can also run through the middle.
Blake - played 219 games for the Aints, if he was B grade I doubt he would have played 100.
BJ Goddard - definitely an A grader
Dal Santo - the mighty midget... definitely an A grade player.
Montagna - A grade all the way.
Hayes - shit... another A grader.

And personally I think that you are doing Farren Ray an injustice... he is a more than handy footballer who has clocked up over 200 games in his AFL career.

Now lets have a look at their talls.
Sam Fisher (191cm) AA once and B&F twice... good third tall defender.
Zac Dawson (197cm) Forever to be known as a very average defender and Nick Reiwoldt's personal condom holder
Justin Koschitzke (197cm) He isnt known as Kos-Shit-Ske for nothing. Averaged just over 1 goal/for his entire career.

And finally their only A grade KPP... Nick Reiwoldt... he is a gun... has averaged just over 2 goals/game for nearly 300 games.

2009, they had almost exactly the same team... except that they also had Luke Ball running through the midfield.

I would actually rate their starting midfield/flanker group as an A- with the support group being B graders. Which is pretty much exactly how you want your team setup. In the replay, it was the lack of quality in front of goal and in defence that ultimately cost the Aint's the replay grand final.

You are right, they did have A-B graders in their side, but you have listed 10 in total. Hawthorn have 15 bona fide A graders and that is the difference between nearly winning a flag or 2 and winning 4.

Replacing McQualter at half forward with Cyril Rioli or Bruest and replacing Clint Jones on ball with Jordan Lewis has as much effect on the side as replacing Kosi with Roughead

 

[LemmingMaster]

Jack is still growing, with one recent report on here having him at 194cm.

Combine states he is 191cm.

 

[BringBackSimmo]

Weitering (190cm Def) - Our #1 pick

For some reason i thought he was taller?

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...-under-18-talent/story-e6frf3e3-1227433319073 FoxSports has him at 195cm?

 

[ParapMarkets]

To think Schache, Curnow, Weideman, Hipwood, McKay, Burton could all go in the top 15 as tall forwards. Reckon Skinner could have pushed for a spot too if he didn't have that injury.

For this reason I think that SOS will go after Oliver with pick 8 if he is available, you would think the crows would want a mid with one of their first two picks and Oliver would seem a very good replacement for Danger, they would want to pick the mid before our second pick.

 

[andrew_]

If Riley Bonner makes it to our pick 19 he should be a lock, seems like a real good kid, is an elite user on both sides of his body, is athletically elite for his size (191cm?) and has a real Grant Birchall vibe about him. Only query is potential foot issues and perceived lack of defensive skills.

 

[LordLucifer]

We have an over riding need for midfielders. The crap that we should wait for next year to stock up on midfielders is totally misguided. What trade bait do we have to get multiple top end picks? We have the picks this year. We use them on the best available talent that fits our needs.

We do not take speculative talls over genuine quality midfielders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolute & utter bollocks !!

As for taking "speculative talls", every player in the draft is considered to be speculative regardless of what type & size they are. It all hinges on the quality of your recruiting department whether they turn out to be decent players and in the past, our people have picked way too many lemons.

We need a quality spine, not one of B-Graders & spare parts players.

The thing is, if the club went down the path you & Geoff and some of the others are advocating, I would bet my left nut that within 18-months you'd all be squealing from high heaven that we don't have any decent talls.

This is the same rinse & repeat cycle we went through some years ago which did not work then and has greatly contributed to the disastrous state of our list right now.

 

[Dramoth]

You are right, they did have A-B graders in their side, but you have listed 10 in total. Hawthorn have 15 bona fide A graders and that is the difference between nearly winning a flag or 2 and winning 4.

Replacing McQualter at half forward with Cyril Rioli or Bruest and replacing Clint Jones on ball with Jordan Lewis has as much effect on the side as replacing Kosi with Roughead

Ok... tell me this... would Rioli and Lewis have been as good as they are if they were in our development system? Would Roughead be as good as he is if he was in our forwards development system? Casboult is a better mark than Roughead is... they both are about the same around the ground when they are playing up the ground or on the ball. It's only when it comes to kicking goals that Roughead is ahead of Casboult. But Roughead is a champion player and Casboult is a B grader.

Our development system has been for shit for about 8-10 years. Our medical staff has queered the careers of a large number of players and our so called A-graders are really at best B+ collectively.

We are in a rebuild mode. We don't need A grade mids at this point because we would be wasting a good chunk of their career until we get in some decent KPP and develop them properly.

We get mostly mids this year, more mids next year and maybe the year after that we get in some talls. By which stage, the quality mids we got in this year have been in the system for 2 years before we get the talls to go with them. It could be up to 3 years after we get the talls before they start to hit their straps. So our "A" grade mids that we got this year are now 23 years old. Who are our tall defenders because in 2-5 years time, Jamison will be gone... Rowe will probably be gone at the end of next year and so we would be left with Weitering and Plowman holding down our creaking defence. Who are going to be our tall forwards? We might get Tomlinson next year... might. Casboult will be 26-32 years old by that time... if we haven't traded or delisted him. Jaksch might come good and turn into a KPP... and our speculative tall in Foster might turn into a world beater.

But thats all right because we have an A grade midfield and A grade flankers... and a defence that might be leaking goals like a sieve and a forwardline that might struggle to kick 12 goals in a game... shit, they might even struggle to kick 10.

 

[Blue and Silver]

Some Silvagni highlights.

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2015-10-30/jack-silvagni-highlights

Definitely got some moves, and I like how he marks in packs, on the lead and diving to one side, like his father