List Mgmt. 2016 Trade and Free Agency Targets Part 1

[Defacto]

Only thing I'm concerned about gaff is he's having a good year but his sides still shite.

He's a bit ineffectual for me. I'm not sure what he would bring to the side for the cost

Sure he can run end to end all day but his disposal and decision making can be a bit meh at times and hes not one that applies the pressure of say a geary

 

[bird_man]

You would think Ed Langdon would come very cheap if we were to land him

 

[thepoyz]

Only thing I'm concerned about gaff is he's having a good year but his sides still shite.

This happens to squillions of players though?

 

[hayes]

That is unrealistic. The guy was pick 4, has close to ten years of footy ahead of him, is an all Australian and B&F winner in a Grand Final year

But apparently still not good enough for a bottom 6 team desperate for midfield talent. You have to laugh.

 

[bird_man]

This happens to squillions of players though?

Yep, I don't really get that argument. Rarely does a Brownlow medalist also play in a Premiership.

 

[thepoyz]

Yep, I don't really get that argument. Rarely does a Brownlow medalist also play in a Premiership.

It is a basketball argument, where one bloke can make a huge difference. Also, anyone thinking we wouldn't be giving a first rounder for Gaff is outside their mind...

 

[TheLonieRanger]

kennedy with three. Ridiculous how much talent GWS have. Hopefully a few will be squeezed out at year end.

 

[Simple Jack]

Odd comment. I can understand the free kick argument towards a team, but to correlate that to a players disposals doesn't add up. It's not as if he gets 20 frees for per game.

I'd be inclined to look at his disposals at home v away games.

The whole team benefits from lopsided free kick counts. Especially players who are more receivers or outside players.

This.

A team is a collection of players, so logically it stands to reason that if a team benefits at least some of the players must benefit. And it's not even about anything as simplistic as number of disposals.

Consider the following scenarios:
Player A is an outside runner with reasonable disposal he plays for West Coast.
Player B is player A's identical twin who plays in an identical manner to player A, except for St Kilda.

1. A WCE player has the ball in a congested situation in the middle. He puts his head down and drives it into an opposition player and is awarded a bullshit free kick. After everyone has had to clear 10m from that player (and most run towards WCE F50) player A runs around behind the player with the free kick, gets a handball and then under little pressure delivers a precision pass to a leading forward.

Player A has had 1 very effective disposal and a goal assist.

2. A St Kilda player has the ball in a congested situation in the middle. He puts his head down and drives it into an opposition player and a ball up is called (if not a free against). At the ball up Armo is able to get the contested ball and fire out a quick under pressure handball to player B who is probably standing reasonably still. Player B then takes off under massive pressure from many opposition players around him and ends up having to bomb it high into the F50 where 3-4 defenders converge and easily kill the contest.

Player B has 1 ineffective disposal.

Then extrapolate that out over whole games and seasons and player A would be considered a much better player than player B despite them actually being identical. If the teams then swap players, suddenly player A doesn't look so good any more while player B becomes 'so much more damaging'.

Player C is a chip-scab goal hanging small forward who plays for West Coast.
Player D is player C's identical twin who plays for the Saints.

1. The ball is around CHF for West Coast with the opposition having a free kick. The opposition player is called to play on and gets tackled and driven straight in his back into the ground by a West Coast player. Umpire awards HTB to WCE. WCE player takes his free kick quickly and hits up player C who is on his own 5m out because all of the opposition players are out of position. Player C kicks a cheap goal and celebrates like a tool.

2. The ball is around CHF for St Kilda with the opposition having a free kick. The opposition player is called to play on and gets tackled and driven straight in his back into the ground by a St Kilda player. Umpire awards the opposition player another free kick for a push in the back. The opposition player kicks it down towards a pack of players on the wing. Player D doesn't touch the ball.

You get the idea.

I'm not saying that Gaff wouldn't improve our midfield (he clearly would, our midfield is crap), just that we shouldn't expect the same output from him (or any other WCE player) if he moves and therefore shouldn't sell the farm to get what will probably end up being a good, but not great player if he comes to us.

Umpiring in the AFL is extremely influential in games, more so than any other sport I know of. Maybe with the exception of penalties in soccer.

 

[thepoyz]

This.
Umpiring in the AFL is extremely influential in games, more so than any other sport I know of. Maybe with the exception of penalties in soccer.

Cricket? Admittedly, DRS has changed that a little.

 

[Simple Jack]

Cricket? Admittedly, DRS has changed that a little.

Nowhere near. Cricket umpiring is generally pretty good (fyi I don't consider hit and giggle cricket if that's what you're talking about), mostly because the rules are clear and don't require much 'interpretation'.

I can't really think of many tests where I've considered the umpiring as basically deciding the match.

 

[thepoyz]

Nowhere near. Cricket umpiring is generally pretty good (fyi I don't consider hit and giggle cricket if that's what you're talking about), mostly because the rules are clear and don't require much 'interpretation'.

I can't really think of many tests where I've considered the umpiring as basically deciding the match.

Damo Martyn in the 2005 Ashes?

 

[thepoyz]

Nowhere near. Cricket umpiring is generally pretty good (fyi I don't consider hit and giggle cricket if that's what you're talking about), mostly because the rules are clear and don't require much 'interpretation'.

I can't really think of many tests where I've considered the umpiring as basically deciding the match.

And everytime I'm out LBW

 

[Simple Jack]

Damo Martyn in the 2005 Ashes?

Kind of my point. You've had to go back over a decade

I can think of two examples only looking at my team and only this year!

 

[Defacto]

This happens to squillions of players though?

totally, but he's not part of the engine, i just dont think he will have the impact we think he will have. he works really well in the wce system designed around a zone that works at subi where its a long narrow ground. players who are great in poor sides, still have an impact. think judd, think ablett. without them they are infinitely worse.

i'm not sure he's going to have the same impact with us and i'm not sure he will live up to the richos demand for defencive pressure/attack on the man. he's the icing IMO not sure we have the base there yet to put the icing on top

out of interest who were the great solely outside winger players that went to another side and significantly improved them? i'm not talking flankers/fwd's here that hit the scoreboard

part of it will be price i'm sure, which will be minimum a good first rounder plus extras, which may see us lose out significantly on a player like gaff

 

[aussierulesrules]

I was thinking in the event that if Gaff did decide to leave WCE and nominated us as his preferred destination, should the club look to do a deal of pick 7 (as it stands) for Gaff + WCE third round pick (around pick 48)? That way we could try and then bundle our two 3rd round picks and trade up to the 2nd round with an academy club.

I am for trading in Gaff if we are fairly sure that we cannot pick any of Brodie, McCluggage or Venables in the draft.

If we had pick 7ish it would be us who would have to add in a 3rd-rounder, not them.

I guess it will come down to the talent we see being available at our first and if we think they're a bit meh and have the cap space for Gaff then going hard for him would be a bit of a no-brainer.

I have no doubt they are!!!!

Ive loved langdon since i saw him slot a nice goal from the pocket at leederville against wa. Been keenly following his progress. Whats frustrated me is freo play him out of position in the seniors

You think we are keen? I always thought the pies would be all over him

So what are Ed's attributes and what role would you see him playing for us?

 

[Defacto]

If we had pick 7ish it would be us who would have to add in a 3rd-rounder, not them.

I guess it will come down to the talent we see being available at our first and if we think they're a bit meh and have the cap space for Gaff then going hard for him would be a bit of a no-brainer.

So what are Ed's attributes and what role would you see him playing for us?

he's a pure HFFer for mine, poor mans jack billings. got good goal sense and finds the ball, but he's not a full time mid and i dont get why freo have used him across half back, i guess maybe because of their issues with disposal down there

he's not as good by foot or overhead like jack is, but he cracks in a bit more at the contested stuff

 

[aussierulesrules]

he's a pure HFFer for mine, poor mans jack billings. got good goal sense and finds the ball, but he's not a full time mid and i dont get why freo have used him across half back, i guess maybe because of their issues with disposal down there

he's not as good by foot or overhead like jack is, but he cracks in a bit more at the contested stuff

Thanks for that. Tested exceptionally well from a running perspective at his combine, with a 2.92sec 20m sprint, a 15.3 in the beep, a top 15% 3km time trial and a top 6% in the repeat sprints, so he's similar to Dan McKenzie in that regard, with the elite speed and endurance combo, which is pretty rare. Tested well for agility, too (not as well as D-Mac though, who was top 1%). What's his kicking like?

 

[Defacto]

Thanks for that. Tested exceptionally well from a running perspective at his combine, with a 2.92sec 20m sprint, a 15.3 in the beep, a top 15% 3km time trial and a top 6% in the repeat sprints, so he's similar to Dan McKenzie in that regard, with the elite speed and endurance combo, which is pretty rare. What's his kicking like?

i dont have a problem with his kicking tbh. its not jack billings/shane savage/jimmy webster/jack lonie but its not woeful either. same argument i was trying to make with powell-pepper

but again right now for me he is a fwd flanker, not sure if he can transition to the midfield

his game was televised on c7, hopefully its uploaded so i can watch it (i was at subi vs east freo instead)

 

[mysainters]

Hickey, Steven, Gaff, Armitage, Ross doesn't look too bad.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Hickey, Steven, Gaff, Armitage, Ross doesn't look too bad.

I don't think there's anyone who doesn't believe he would add something pretty significant to our side. The only question is at what cost and probably whether we'll have enough "cake" types to be adding a creme type like Gaff at a high cost.

 

[VDS66]

This.

A team is a collection of players, so logically it stands to reason that if a team benefits at least some of the players must benefit. And it's not even about anything as simplistic as number of disposals.

Consider the following scenarios:
Player A is an outside runner with reasonable disposal he plays for West Coast.
Player B is player A's identical twin who plays in an identical manner to player A, except for St Kilda.

1. A WCE player has the ball in a congested situation in the middle. He puts his head down and drives it into an opposition player and is awarded a bullshit free kick. After everyone has had to clear 10m from that player (and most run towards WCE F50) player A runs around behind the player with the free kick, gets a handball and then under little pressure delivers a precision pass to a leading forward.

Player A has had 1 very effective disposal and a goal assist.

2. A St Kilda player has the ball in a congested situation in the middle. He puts his head down and drives it into an opposition player and a ball up is called (if not a free against). At the ball up Armo is able to get the contested ball and fire out a quick under pressure handball to player B who is probably standing reasonably still. Player B then takes off under massive pressure from many opposition players around him and ends up having to bomb it high into the F50 where 3-4 defenders converge and easily kill the contest.

Player B has 1 ineffective disposal.

Then extrapolate that out over whole games and seasons and player A would be considered a much better player than player B despite them actually being identical. If the teams then swap players, suddenly player A doesn't look so good any more while player B becomes 'so much more damaging'.

Player C is a chip-scab goal hanging small forward who plays for West Coast.
Player D is player C's identical twin who plays for the Saints.

1. The ball is around CHF for West Coast with the opposition having a free kick. The opposition player is called to play on and gets tackled and driven straight in his back into the ground by a West Coast player. Umpire awards HTB to WCE. WCE player takes his free kick quickly and hits up player C who is on his own 5m out because all of the opposition players are out of position. Player C kicks a cheap goal and celebrates like a tool.

2. The ball is around CHF for St Kilda with the opposition having a free kick. The opposition player is called to play on and gets tackled and driven straight in his back into the ground by a St Kilda player. Umpire awards the opposition player another free kick for a push in the back. The opposition player kicks it down towards a pack of players on the wing. Player D doesn't touch the ball.

You get the idea.

I'm not saying that Gaff wouldn't improve our midfield (he clearly would, our midfield is crap), just that we shouldn't expect the same output from him (or any other WCE player) if he moves and therefore shouldn't sell the farm to get what will probably end up being a good, but not great player if he comes to us.

Umpiring in the AFL is extremely influential in games, more so than any other sport I know of. Maybe with the exception of penalties in soccer.

Two different arguments. Can the umps influence a game? Yes of course.

The original point was that Gaff gets more possessions because of biased umpiring out west.

So show me some proof to back this claim and I will concede the argument.

I still maintain that if he was getting 15 frees per game then I would agree. And even then, only if he gets more frees at home v away games.

I would argue that he is an outside receiver and the better his mids play the more possessions he gets.

 

[plugger66]

Two different arguments. Can the umps influence a game? Yes of course.

The original point was that Gaff gets more possessions because of biased umpiring out west.

So show me some proof to back this claim and I will concede the argument.

I still maintain that if he was getting 15 frees per game then I would agree. And even then, only if he gets more frees at home v away games.

I would argue that he is an outside receiver and the better his mids play the more possessions he gets.

Did you know Gaff averages .53 Frees a game Steven averages 1.09.

 

[St Kilda Death]

That is unrealistic. The guy was pick 4, has close to ten years of footy ahead of him, is an all Australian and B&F winner in a Grand Final year

I never said it was realistic. Just hinting i think hes a tad overpriced and maybe not the player we should be forking out a high pick for.
Hes good no doubt.

 

[tom1197]

Stevo linking Gaff with us and Essendon for a move back to Victoria.
Not sure if this excites me
Not sure if it would be worth it

 

[Choomah]

Stevo linking Gaff with us and Essendon for a move back to Victoria.
Not sure if this excites me
Not sure if it would be worth it

of course itd be worth it, youd jump at the chance to get a 22 year old AA who averages 30 touches a game