Analysis 2021 draft thread

[Johnny Bananas]

Also, it'll be tough to draft a decent KPP next year along with our father sons and academy selections

Not necessarily. We could trade our 2022 1st into 2023, wait for a bid on Ashcroft, match it with lower picks and then trade back in to 2022.

Who of our reserves KPFs has ever kicked even a moderate amount of goals at any level? There are none and personally I see that as the biggest gap in our list.

This sounds like an argument for signing Hammelmann. Drafting a first round KPF this year wouldn't give us instant quality depth, they'd only be ready to go by 2024-25. Unfortunately Daniher is young enough to play until 2027, so there'd be little opportunity for starting time, and I'd worry about losing them. So maybe there's a case for signing a mature KPP with a proven track record, but it doesn't mean we have to use a first on a KPP now.

By the way the more I think about it the more I would be prepared to use our last pick (41) or even a rookie pick (upgrade Madden or Lane) on a tall. With our best 22 talls settled for at least 3-5 years, a highly rated tall would get pretty frustrated. And it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility they might become a best 22 player anyway.

Hooray, someone understands! This is the exact reason I don't want us spending a high pick on a tall just yet (and that they likely won't be the best available). A lower draft pick may be more willing to bide their time, and if they walk away due to a lack of playing time, it probably won't be as damaging to us.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

This was in an article about what clubs should do with their pick rather than a rumour piece as such, but this is interesting regardless:

But rival clubs are also wary the Lions could package up their two first-rounders and trade them to a club with an earlier pick that would be happy to split selections. If the Lions pulled that off, it’d almost certainly put them in contention to snare top-10 bolter from Glenelg Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera, who has awesome kicking skills and an ability to link teammates between the arcs.

The young gun every club should consider taking with its first AFL draft pick

The young star EVERY AFL club should take with its first draft pick to fix biggest flaw

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[briztoon]

 

[briztoon]

Soooo we’ve managed to fill 47 pages. Bit of catching up to reach Fremantle’s level. 735 pages.

 

[Nunez]

Soooo we’ve managed to fill 47 pages. Bit of catching up to reach Fremantle’s level. 735 pages.

Do better Briztoon....

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Soooo we’ve managed to fill 47 pages. Bit of catching up to reach Fremantle’s level. 735 pages.

Doesn't help when this thread only started after we got knocked out of finals.

 

[Dalions]

Doesn't help when this thread only started after we got knocked out of finals.

Aaahhhh!
The beauty of playing in a final series.

 

[Quigley]

Hooray, someone understands! This is the exact reason I don't want us spending a high pick on a tall just yet (and that they likely won't be the best available). A lower draft pick may be more willing to bide their time, and if they walk away due to a lack of playing time, it probably won't be as damaging to us.

Any yet our severe lack of depth at KP cost us in the finals where we were forced to play a bloke who has never played there at forward. Daniher has a horrendous injury history and Eric is coming back from a knee injury. Having at least minimal depth is needed.

I admit that it is not an immediate best 22 need but we do need some cover for when things inevitably occur.

 

[Tom14]

Any yet our severe lack of depth at KP cost us in the finals where we were forced to play a bloke who has never played there at forward. Daniher has a horrendous injury history and Eric is coming back from a knee injury. Having at least minimal depth is needed.

I admit that it is not an immediate best 22 need but we do need some cover for when things inevitably occur.

I get taking a developmental guy at 41 (or wherever it ends up), but I'm not sure you construct a list on the assumption that you will have 2 of your first choice tall forwards out for a finals game. I can't think of many teams that would plan for it that way and have a high first round pick KPP playing reserves, especially when none of the first choice key forwards are 30. The dogs had Schache waiting when Bruce got injured, but they brought in bruce because Schache had been such a disappointment.

It can bite you when you have a run of injuries in the one spot, but by the same token if you stay healthy for a few years I don't think you can expect a first round pick to stay. I'd be happy taking one if they maybe have some versatility and could play a tom lynch (Ade) role, but if not I'm happy to take midfield/hbf and build depth there.

 

[jackess]

Any yet our severe lack of depth at KP cost us in the finals where we were forced to play a bloke who has never played there at forward. Daniher has a horrendous injury history and Eric is coming back from a knee injury. Having at least minimal depth is needed.

I admit that it is not an immediate best 22 need but we do need some cover for when things inevitably occur.

Not sure how many teams would handle losing 2 KPFs that well and we have brought in Fort who would have played that final instead of Payne or Fullarton

 

[scoman]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but imagine if we had selected Hammelmann in the mid season draft instead of Lane. Not only would (ok could) he have made a better replacement for Hipwood, but our list would be more balanced heading into the draft.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Any yet our severe lack of depth at KP cost us in the finals where we were forced to play a bloke who has never played there at forward. Daniher has a horrendous injury history and Eric is coming back from a knee injury. Having at least minimal depth is needed.

I admit that it is not an immediate best 22 need but we do need some cover for when things inevitably occur.

I agree, I'm just saying that's an argument for a mature player who is ready to go now, more so than for someone who will take 2-3 years to be ready. If we're investing a first round pick into someone, I'd like for the coaching staff to have a path to the best 22 sussed out for them.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Interesting discussion happening here about the prospect of Will Ashcroft moving back to Queensland and playing for our VFL team next year.

Preview - 2022 AFL Draft General Discussion

Family connections in the 2022 crop here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2022-afl-draft-general-discussion.1219047/#post-66340974

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Section 5]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but imagine if we had selected Hammelmann in the mid season draft instead of Lane. Not only would (ok could) he have made a better replacement for Hipwood, but our list would be more balanced heading into the draft.

A good observation about the mid season draft as i also could not understand the Lane selection at the time.
However the mid-season draft was on the 2/6/2021 and Hippy did not get injured until 10/7/2021 so his injury was not a consideration

The clubs pushed hard for a mid-season draft to fill position spots on lists that were plagued by injuries
Like all the ruck issues for the Suns this year. They at least did take a ruck but only a 19 year old who did not play a game

Instead we got some strange selections.
A total of 22 players were taken in the mid season draft of which 7 played 1 or more AFL games that year
Played 7 games: Jai Newcombe (Hawks), Sam Durham (Bombers)
Played 6 Games: Matthew Parker (Tigers)
Played 5 games: Cooper Sharman (Saints), Connor West (Eagles)
Played 4 games: James Peatling (Giants)
Played 1 game .: Jed McEntee (Port)

Arguably the best selection was Cooper Sharman who kicked 10 goals 4 behinds in his 5 games and collected 1 Brownlow vote

I think the Lions and other clubs with list spot issues for 2022 decided to trial someone on a 6 month contract. A free draft selection hit if you like.
Then make a decision if they believe the player can make it at AFL level.

I hope with 2023 being a different beast regarding list spots & salary cap next years mid season draft may be completely different

 

[scoman]

A good observation about the mid season draft as i also could not understand the Lane selection at the time.
However the mid-season draft was on the 2/6/2021 and Hippy did not get injured until 10/7/2021 so his injury was not a consideration

The clubs pushed hard for a mid-season draft to fill position spots on lists that were plagued by injuries
Like all the ruck issues for the Suns this year. They at least did take a ruck but only a 19 year old who did not play a game

Instead we got some strange selections.
A total of 22 players were taken in the mid season draft of which 7 played 1 or more AFL games that year
Played 7 games: Jai Newcombe (Hawks), Sam Durham (Bombers)
Played 6 Games: Matthew Parker (Tigers)
Played 5 games: Cooper Sharman (Saints), Connor West (Eagles)
Played 4 games: James Peatling (Giants)
Played 1 game .: Jed McEntee (Port)

Arguably the best selection was Cooper Sharman who kicked 10 goals 4 behinds in his 5 games and collected 1 Brownlow vote

I think the Lions and other clubs with list spot issues for 2022 decided to trial someone on a 6 month contract. A free draft selection hit if you like.
Then make a decision if they believe the player can make it at AFL level.

I hope with 2023 being a different beast regarding list spots & salary cap next years mid season draft may be completely different

Yeah it was purely speculation as I knew the Hippy injury happened after the mid season draft. Also I can't recall anyone suggesting we take mature age key forward anyway. It just wasn't on our radar prior to the Hipwood injury. I remember we were fairly keen on Fullerton getting some more football as he showed a bit late last season (I think it was) before an injury.

And yes I do continue to be puzzled by the Lane selection. At that point in time we already had a nice spread (age wise) of developing ruck/ forwards. I think many of us expected a ruck, but a mature age one as it was pretty obvious Archie was in his final season. I can only assume that the club saw something very special in Lane and I hope they are right. There are other possibilities of course. They may have already decided to delist Ballenden, seen young Smith as primarily a key forward and already had an indication they could bring in Fort. All things that would make the decision to draft Lane more understandable.

 

[briztoon]

Any yet our severe lack of depth at KP cost us in the finals where we were forced to play a bloke who has never played there at forward. Daniher has a horrendous injury history and Eric is coming back from a knee injury. Having at least minimal depth is needed.

I admit that it is not an immediate best 22 need but we do need some cover for when things inevitably occur.

My observation of this year’s draft crop.

There’s only one KPF worth drafting, Jye Amiss.

There’s one ruck forward worth drafting, Mac Andrew.

There’s four key defenders worth drafting. One in the first round, three in the second round.

I certainly don’t see a KPF forward as best available at our first two picks, unless Amiss is there.

 

[mattsmob]

And yes I do continue to be puzzled by the Lane selection. At that point in time we already had a nice spread (age wise) of developing ruck/ forwards. I think many of us expected a ruck, but a mature age one as it was pretty obvious Archie was in his final season. I can only assume that the club saw something very special in Lane and I hope they are right. There are other possibilities of course. They may have already decided to delist Ballenden, seen young Smith as primarily a key forward and already had an indication they could bring in Fort. All things that would make the decision to draft Lane more understandable.

I thought the feeling around here prior to the mid-season draft was that Oscar wasn’t up to the number one ruck role and that we had no young genuine rucks on the list to develop. My view is unless you’re taking a genuine ruck in the first round because of their talent the mid-season draft is the best place to pick up a project young ruckman, mainly because it doesn’t use a main draft pick but you also get an extra 6 months or so to see how they develop before picking them up. Personally I liked the Lane pick up and wouldn’t changed it at this stage.

 

[Section 5]

I thought the feeling around here prior to the mid-season draft was that Oscar wasn’t up to the number one ruck role and that we had no young genuine rucks on the list to develop. My view is unless you’re taking a genuine ruck in the first round because of their talent the mid-season draft is the best place to pick up a project young ruckman, mainly because it doesn’t use a main draft pick but you also get an extra 6 months or so to see how they develop before picking them up. Personally I liked the Lane pick up and wouldn’t changed it at this stage.

As i mentioned above it was a free pick (Lane for us) rather than go to this upcoming draft with limited spots available to lots of clubs
However taking kids in the midseason draft is not what it was designed for.
The clubs pushed for and got the midseason draft to fill big injury concerns on their best 22 playing list.
The assumption being they would be mature aged players

Because the last 2 years has been "adjust as you go" the clubs took whatever leverage they could get in the current year or the next
If things get back to normal next year i expect the AFL to have different guidelines regarding the midseason draft

Regarding Oscar taking over the number 1 ruck duties their were probably a few concerns on the BF community.
However i think most people were concerned about how Jo would go as the the 2 ruck and what will we do if Oscar gets a bad injury

 

[mattsmob]

As i mentioned above it was a free pick (Lane for us) rather than go to this upcoming draft with limited spots available to lots of clubs
However taking kids in the midseason draft is not what it was designed for.
The clubs pushed for and got the midseason draft to fill big injury concerns on their best 22 playing list.
The assumption being they would be mature aged players

Because the last 2 years has been "adjust as you go" the clubs took whatever leverage they could get in the current year or the next
If things get back to normal next year i expect the AFL to have different guidelines regarding the midseason draft

Regarding Oscar taking over the number 1 ruck duties their were probably a few concerns on the BF community.
However i think most people were concerned about how Jo would go as the the 2 ruck and what will we do if Oscar gets a bad injury

It was brought in to pick up mature aged players but it was never going to stay that way if there was a 19 or 20 year old late developer that was talented enough to get picked up at the end of that season. Also as for the big injury it wasn't worth trying to find a replacement for Rayner as it's not really a position clubs are short for numbers.
On the ruck concerns I'm pretty comfortable with how we sit right now, Oscar in my mind is good enough to play as a number 1 ruck for a good team, Joe is a nice point of difference in the ruck for 10-15% and should only get better with another pre-season and more confidence in his body. Fort as a number 1 mature aged backup, Lane as a genuine ruck to develop, Fullarton as a forward/ruck. The only one I'm not sure of at this stage is H Smith, if the club see him as a genuine forward (I'm not sure I do) then that's alright but I think it'll be hard to find ruck minutes in the reserves at this stage.

 

[briztoon]

As i mentioned above it was a free pick (Lane for us) rather than go to this upcoming draft with limited spots available to lots of clubs
However taking kids in the midseason draft is not what it was designed for.
The clubs pushed for and got the midseason draft to fill big injury concerns on their best 22 playing list.
The assumption being they would be mature aged players

Because the last 2 years has been "adjust as you go" the clubs took whatever leverage they could get in the current year or the next
If things get back to normal next year i expect the AFL to have different guidelines regarding the midseason draft

Regarding Oscar taking over the number 1 ruck duties their were probably a few concerns on the BF community.
However i think most people were concerned about how Jo would go as the the 2 ruck and what will we do if Oscar gets a bad injury

The mid season draft was designed as another mechanism for AFL clubs to add talent to their list. There was no stipulation, whether spoken or unspoken, that the talent had to be mid twenty something year old players.

Lane was a “mature age” draft pick.

Every player selected in every mid season draft, is a mature age player.

Doesn’t mater if they are 19 or 29, they all nominated for the previous year’s draft, and were past over.

They mid season draft was never going to be solely for 20 something year old players, who were ready made best 22 players.

You would be lucky if there were 3 genuine ready to plug and play, best 22 players in any mid season draft.

We were always going to see the best overlooked 19 year olds selected at the top of the mid season draft, by the worst performing teams, because by and large, such clubs had little need for role players, to help their rebuild.


There were no state league rucks who were considered as afl quality this year. If there were, the Suns would have drafted the best of them. So we went the obvious route, picking up the best young ruck available at our pick. As clubs knew, there are sweet all rucks available in this year’s draft.

 

[briztoon]

I thought the feeling around here prior to the mid-season draft was that Oscar wasn’t up to the number one ruck role and that we had no young genuine rucks on the list to develop. My view is unless you’re taking a genuine ruck in the first round because of their talent the mid-season draft is the best place to pick up a project young ruckman, mainly because it doesn’t use a main draft pick but you also get an extra 6 months or so to see how they develop before picking them up. Personally I liked the Lane pick up and wouldn’t changed it at this stage.

Just two minor points.

There have been some pretty handy rucks drafted in the second round in recent years. I wouldn’t say it’s first round or nothing in regards to where a 18 year old ruck should be drafted.

The mid season draft isn’t the only draft where you can add a rookie listed player to your list. There is the rookie draft the day after the National draft.

Not that we had the list space, and we’re not in Victoria, but I am surprised that some VIC clubs didn’t invite some of the over looked 18 year KPP’s to train with them last preseason, with the view of potentially signing them as SSP rookies.

 

[mattsmob]

Just two minor points.

There have been some pretty handy rucks drafted in the second round in recent years. I wouldn’t say it’s first round or nothing in regards to where a 18 year old ruck should be drafted.

The mid season draft isn’t the only draft where you can add a rookie listed player to your list. There is the rookie draft the day after the National draft.

Not that we had the list space, and we’re not in Victoria, but I am surprised that some VIC clubs didn’t invite some of the over looked 18 year KPP’s to train with them last preseason, with the view of potentially signing them as SSP rookies.

Yeah I guess it's more of a preference I'd probably rather a mid or kpp over a ruck if they're not really a first round talent.
True, the 6 to 18 month extra footage and development is probably the bigger reason to wait till a mid-season draft, also gives you half a season to see what they're like in a full-time AFL environment without locking you in for 2 years.

 

[briztoon]

Yeah I guess it's more of a preference I'd probably rather a mid or kpp over a ruck if they're not really a first round talent.
True, the 6 to 18 month extra footage and development is probably the bigger reason to wait till a mid-season draft, also gives you half a season to see what they're like in a full-time AFL environment without locking you in for 2 years.

The SSP doesn’t lock you in to a 2 year contract.

Collingwood did take Jake Briskey from our academy down to Melbourne during the preseason to look at him, with a view to picking him up in the SSP.

And Hawthorn had Tasmanian born KPF, Jackson Callow train with them.

I’m surprised that clubs didn’t invite any of the Vic kids to at least have a look at them. Especially seeing as there was no official NAB League preseason over the school Christmas holidays.

Several clubs had kept list spots open, so they could have snapped up a bargain, without having to wait there turn at the mid season draft.

 

[briztoon]

On today’s AFL.com draft related video, Twomey said it looks like there will only be 54 to 56 live selections at the National Draft this year.

Obviously a couple of clubs will take a couple of extra picks to the draft, with the intention of passing on the last one or two picks, and carrying them over to the rookie draft or SSP.

If list spots aren’t increased at the end of next season, we’ll probably see a similar number of picks again in next year’s draft.

 

[Section 5]

The mid season draft was designed as another mechanism for AFL clubs to add talent to their list. There was no stipulation, whether spoken or unspoken, that the talent had to be mid twenty something year old players.

Lane was a “mature age” draft pick.

Every player selected in every mid season draft, is a mature age player.

Doesn’t mater if they are 19 or 29, they all nominated for the previous year’s draft, and were past over.

They mid season draft was never going to be solely for 20 something year old players, who were ready made best 22 players.

You would be lucky if there were 3 genuine ready to plug and play, best 22 players in any mid season draft.

We were always going to see the best overlooked 19 year olds selected at the top of the mid season draft, by the worst performing teams, because by and large, such clubs had little need for role players, to help their rebuild.


There were no state league rucks who were considered as afl quality this year. If there were, the Suns would have drafted the best of them. So we went the obvious route, picking up the best young ruck available at our pick. As clubs knew, there are sweet all rucks available in this year’s draft.

I will concede that the end product called the mid-season draft was not solely for older ready to play AFL players
It took a long time for the AFL to concede and come up with their usual "herbs & spices" fix to reintroduce the midseason draft.
Link below for formula

However their were many years of discussion from clubs & coaches to reintroduce a midseason draft to cover unprecedented injuries
Link below of Alastair Clarkson going way back to 2009 discussing the issue. There would be many others over the years since then
My recollections are these discussions were to fill a spot on the best 22. Their was no other reason for coaches to bring this up.
It was the best 22 injuries during the current season being their concern, not to fill a spot on the reserves side or draft for the future
Anyhow that is my recollection of the talks and articles over a long period of time

Regarding the bolded (2) from your reply
We have only had 2 mid season drafts since 1993 so when you say "every mid season draft" their were only 2 in 28 years.
Regarding "plug and play, best 22 players.

Players from 2019: Their were 13 selections
Ryan Gardiner 22 years (Dogs) 21 games. Played in 3 finals
Will Snelling 21 years (Bombers) 41 games. Played in 2 finals
Marion Pickett 27 years (Tigers) 38 games. Played in 5 finals including 2 premierships
John Nobel 22 years (Pies) 44 games. Played in 4 finals

Players from 2021: Their were 22 selections. Maximum H & A games they could play was 11 depending on Club's bye round and arrival at club
Jai Newcombe 20 years (Hawks) 7 games
Sam Durham 19 years (Bombers) 7 games. Played in 1 final
Matthew Parker 25 years (Tigers) 6 games
Cooper Sharman 20 years (Saints) 5 games. Received 1 Brownlow vote
Connor West 22 years (Eagles) 5 games
James Peatling 20 years (Giants) 4 games. Played in 1 final

I still believe we took Lane (6 month contract) as a free hit rather than an unknown in the upcoming draft.
The club would not have been thinking of bringing in a 25+ years ruck for 2021 having Archie still on the list and fit to play

Clarkson wants mid-season draft

Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson says he would like to see a mid-season draft to help sides battling with injuries

www.afl.com.au

Mid-season draft: Your questions answered

When is the draft, how will it work, and can the Hawks get Cyril Rioli?

www.afl.com.au