Opinion 2021 Non-Crows AFL 3: Things Fall Apart!

[AFC979810]

So what you're saying is there is absolutely nothing we could have done any better to get us the win.

That we were always going to lose because nothing more could have been done at any stage.

I'm sorry, but that's not true

Of course. I would change absolutely everything if it lead to a different result.

But - put yourself back into 2017. Leading into the Grand Final after our win over Geelong what would change or do differently without the benefit of hindsight?

 

[ABAB]

So what you're saying is there is absolutely nothing we could have done any better to get us the win.

That we were always going to lose because nothing more could have been done at any stage.

I'm sorry, but that's not true

We lost to a dynasty side who should really had won 4* premierships in a row if not for an one in a million form spike by a tall American in the PF.

 

[Crow till I die]

Of course. I would change absolutely everything if it lead to a different result.

But - put yourself back into 2017. Leading into the Grand Final after our win over Geelong what would change or do differently without the benefit of hindsight?

Agree..but i think you can always pay more respect to the opposition strengths. Look at the dogs and port last week. The dogs planned to make Alir redundant whilst port didnt realky plan to stop the dogs inside mids flicking it out and having a spare on the outside that killed them.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I don't think Dixon's output was too involved in getting them to a prelim this year and Robbie missed a block, but he was otherwise pretty handy. Boak was the only one that delivered week in and week out. Remove Tex from our early season form and we're 3 wins short. I think the key is bringing Rozee into the midfield group and transitioning Boak and Gray out. Dixon is nearing a liability and Jonas is easily replaced.

We are in a rebuild & not contending, so not sure why you brought Tex up. Tex won't be around for our next flag, so it's about the experience he brings for the younger players We hardly have any players now apart from Tex & Sloane who will retire soon.

Bottom line is Port still rely on Boak, Gray & Dixon for their wins & they will not be easy to replace for a side which is in contention.

 

[Scorpus]

Of course. I would change absolutely everything if it lead to a different result.

But - put yourself back into 2017. Leading into the Grand Final after our win over Geelong what would change or do differently without the benefit of hindsight?

The selection of Otten was obviously a mistake so that would be corrected.

Our group was known to be mentally weak and prone to mental lapses on field. That was proven throughout the years leading up to 2017. So I would have made a concerted effort to make sure our squad wasn't getting ahead of themselves and remained focused on the task, instead of getting wowed by the grandness of the occasion.

Tactically when we started losing half way into the match I would have made a few changes as well, such as hard tagging Dustin Martin and putting work into Bachar Houli with a player like Knight. Maybe even Jenkins into the ruck and Jacobs forward to get Jenkins involved. We let them run over us, it wasnt an unwinnable game if we did something during the match

 

[Bay62]

Yes, their big fall off a cliff is not far away.

Looks like Scott has organised his out to Carlton with Cook heading there as CEO.

Ooh now there’s a scenario I hadn’t thought about..

 

[Bay62]

Your view of success in the AFL landscape is a little old fashioned.

Craig was a very good AFL coach. Couple of small things go different(Roo getting Parvo /roo getting suspended / cousins on crack) and we are perhaps talking about a completely different legacy.

This sport is a game of inches. You think we talk about Blight in the same light if Libba's goal stands with 10 minutes to go in that 97 prelim? I certainly don't.

The idea that footy is a game of inches is IMO one of the most important things to understand about the game.

The Bulldogs didn’t beat Port by an inch, they beat them by a country mile. But it was the inches that the Port players stopped short in going for the ball, pulling out of the contest, when the Dogs were fully committed, that led to that country mile.

I think it’s something that Choco has brought to Melbourne and something that is fundamentally missing from Port at the moment, who rely too much on the talent of their ageing stars to get a win

 

[Cap]

found this gem from the guy now in the paper going for Melbourne

 

[Sanders]

Rendell hasn’t had ‘it’ since he left list management.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

pretty convenient for your argument that

****! Instantly

 

[FullyBigKPro]

Interesting to see where Talia may end up now Tarrant going to Richmond next year.... Geelong if they go Dads Army mode again?

 

[Sanders]

What a stupid bet for that person to make. Almost impossible for you to lose.

which is why he’ll never collect

 

[GROTTO]

Interesting to see where Talia may end up now Tarrant going to Richmond next year.... Geelong if they go Dads Army mode again?

Cats will double down, Scott wont go through a rebuild. I can see Talia going to the Cats.

 

[GROTTO]

View attachment 1239222found this gem from the guy now in the paper going for Melbourne

In fairness to Watts, his career ended last year and up to that point in time, the Power was closer to the Dees to a flag, even though they were never going to win one.

 

[Sanders]

What can a club do?

There is a point where its up to the players. When a club and players are at a point where they have a lead at qtr time of a grand final - it is what it is.

I can't fault the club for 2017. IMO were the best team that year. Losing Brodie Smith/McGovern was a massive blow for us, but we were beaten by a better team on the day. That happens in sport.

I agree that people gurn and knuckle scrape too much about Kenny. The definitions of success and crayon like etc

on board with all that stuff and like you am often shocked to see it doled out so freely

but if you look more closely at 2017 (clearly a successful season) it’s not clear we were the best team, or conclusively so

we had a dream draw, and H&A record only good enough for 7th the previous year. That would’ve been harsh, but we benefited in 2017.

plus we had an easy home final ride into GF

the only reason people were so shocked at the grand final result is how much they underestimated Richmond. Gurning “ninthmond” without realising they were a serious side

3 flags in 4 years suggests they were pretty side. We got lucky in a lot ways to be there, and a bit more luck we could have gone all the way. Wasn’t to be

a better conversation might be why people hold right to such lazy cliches (but like you, I agree with 98% of your argument), but all this other stuff? lazy thinking

 

[Sanders]

So what you're saying is there is absolutely nothing we could have done any better to get us the win.

That we were always going to lose because nothing more could have been done at any stage.

I'm sorry, but that's not true

im not sure I agree. Turns out they were a lot better than us

 

[Scorpus]

im not sure I agree. Turns out they were a lot better than us

So if we had better players or coaches we still were no chance?

 

[Sanders]

So if we had better players or coaches we still were no chance?

of course. If we had theirs we stood an excellent chance

 

[Scorpus]

of course. If we had theirs we stood an excellent chance

Exactly.

The original contention was that we did lots right from the end of 2014 onward and we couldn't have done anything more. Just unlucky to lose to a better team but we made all the right decisions.

We didn't win. There's more we could have done.

 

[Golumless]

I agree that people gurn and knuckle scrape too much about Kenny. That definitions of success and crayon like etc

on board with all that stuff and like you am often shocked to see it p doled so freely

but if you look more closely at 2017 (clearly a successful season) it’s not clear we were the best team, or conclusively so

we had a dream draw, and H&A record only good enough for 7th the previous year. That would’ve been harsh, but we benefited in 2017.

plus we had an easy home final ride into GF

the only reason people were so shocked at the grand final result is how much they underestimated Richmond. Gurning “ninthmond” without realising they were a serious side

3 flags in 4 years suggests they were pretty side. We got lucky in a lot ways to be there, and a bit more luck we could have gone all the way. Wasn’t to be

a better conversation might be why people hold right to such lazy cliches (but you, I agree with 98% of your argument), but all this other lazy thinking

I disagree. It's conclusively clear we were the best team in 2017, and you could make an argument that, like in 1998, we underperformed in the minor round considering how good we were compared to our competition. Best offensive team (and despite a mid-season stall, we still had a >250 point difference from us and the second best offense), and boasting the fourth best defence (behind Port, Sydney and Richmond), culminating in a 6.3% lead on 2nd place. The only other team to be top four in both sectors were Port and they were bundled early. We deserved every drop of favouritism we received and really, we deserved a lot more of it coming into that game.

I also disagree that Richmond were underestimated hence there was shock. Should you be shocked? Oh shit yeah, we lost the near unlosable that year (even with Richmond being hot). No different to the shock that Geelong would have felt in the aftermath of wasting 1992, or Sydney in 2016. It's finals footy, and sometimes the best team all year just doesn't get the chocolates.

And of course, credit for Richmond using that momentum to establish themselves as a dynasty.

 

[Sanders]

Exactly.

The original contention was that we did lots right from the end of 2014 onward and we couldn't have done anything more. Just unlucky to lose to a better team but we made all the right decisions.

We didn't win. There's more we could have done.

there was more we needed to because we fell short. That is not to say the necessary options were available to us

it’s not inconsistent to say there was nothing more we could do, and what we did do still wasn’t good enough. They were just better.

we took it as far as we could. Seems amazing to me we got that close. Stretched every last inch out of ourselves

 

[Sanders]

I disagree. It's conclusively clear we were the best team in 2017, and you could make an argument that, like in 1998, we underperformed in the minor round considering how good we were compared to our competition. Best offensive team (and despite a mid-season stall, we still had a >250 point difference from us and the second best offense), and boasting the fourth best defence (behind Port, Sydney and Richmond), culminating in a 6.3% lead on 2nd place. The only other team to be top four in both sectors were Port and they were bundled early. We deserved every drop of favouritism we received and really, we deserved a lot more of it coming into that game.

I also disagree that Richmond were underestimated hence there was shock. Should you be shocked? Oh sh*t yeah, we lost the near unlosable that year (even with Richmond being hot). No different to the shock that Geelong would have felt in the aftermath of wasting 1992, or Sydney in 2016. It's finals footy, and sometimes the best team all year just doesn't get the chocolates.

And of course, credit for Richmond using that momentum to establish themselves as a dynasty.

conclusively clear we were the best team?

that’s not a serious opinion

 

[WaynesWorld19]

 

[Rotayjay]

there was more we needed to because we fell short. That is not to say the necessary options were available to us

it’s not inconsistent to say there was nothing more we could do, and what we did do still wasn’t good enough. They were just better.

we took it as far as we could. Seems amazing to me we got that close. Stretched every last inch out of ourselves

All the stars aligned that year. Pretty much all of our key players were at the peak of their powers and having a great season. There was no Sydney or Hawthorn-type side performing better in the minor rounds, so we got a top-two position and therefore two home finals. It was our opening.

The broad mood leading up to the grand final was that we had the better list and most neutrals tipped us to win. Scorpus, I distinctly remember listening to your enjoyable preview podcast in which you said it was hard to see how Richmond can win looking across the team sheets. That's not a knock on you - your show was excellent and you were simply analysing the information available without a crystal ball.

Alternate history is always problematic, and that's part of what makes it interesting. Had our players been better mentally prepared, and had our coaches made some crucial game day moves, could we beat that Richmond list on their home ground? We were up at quarter time, which suggests we weren't destined to lose, but then again, Richmond's very style at the time was keeping level or even trailing before running over teams in the second half.

Most will agree with me and say there is no such thing as predestination. I think we could have won, but it would have been harder than what we thought leading up to the game. But, we lost. It still hurts.

 

[kirky]

No arguments from me. Just that had we won in 2017, the fallout would be looked at in a different light because the end justifies the means

Well if we had won, the camp doesn’t exist for starters.

Everyone is happy and the eventually cliff is just delayed.

 

[kirky]

Let this post be a lesson for us all. Senility is a horrible affliction.

Go back and watch the 2017 prelim. We were primed.

Its sport mate. Sometimes you just lose. Sometimes ya need a bit of luck. Sometimes there are no right answers.

Said to a mate yesterday, the two teams that playoff in a GF are the two best in the comp.

What then happens on the day are the 1%ers that make the difference - team selection (Smith and McGovern not available and allowing Otten to play), getting injuries during the game (Cameron, Brown etc), not hitting the scoreboard when dominating, not getting legitimate frees which should be called (Betts). These make all the difference.

Our two flag results in 1997 and 1998 are off the back of a missed Liberatore goal and the Roos inability to kick goals in the first half. It is a game of inches when it becomes the pointy end of the season.