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Training 2021 - Preseason Thread
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You would probably look little next to those boys too, even SlimGov.
So back to pre-season and what changes we can expect from positions of 2020.
1. Second Ruck - Bailey Williams come on down. Oscar Allen is talented. Oscar Allen is our best emerging KPF. Oscar Allen looks to have put on some serious muscle so far in the pre-season. BUT Oscar Allen is no second ruck option. Going back to 20 minute quarters, West Coast cannot afford to lose the momentum when Oscar goes into the ruck. Bring in Bailey Williams. Hell - even the reporters at the Herald Sun are seeing his value:-
READY TO TAKE THE NEXT STEP
Oscar Allen stepped up in the forward line in 2020 and expect him to continue to develop yet again. Nic Naitanui will again have the reins in the ruck — and why wouldn’t he, he’s a superstar — but Bailey Williams continues to sprout under him. Keep an eye on him as a back-up if required. Tim Kelly will be much more settled after a full year at his new club, while Alex Witherden — if he can cement his spot — has an opportunity to go to the next level out west.
Nobody is doubting the prospects of our next KPF. But FFS, he is not a backup ruckman and we go backwards whenever he goes to the ruck.
2. Tackling Inside Mid - With the question mark on Elliott Yeo's fitness, we need another option in the guts and that option emerged last year in Liam Duggan. Shuey's body needs to be protected, Sheed is more outside than inside, Kelly and Gaff needs to be the first handball receive, we are running out of options. West Coast went backwards when Yeo was injured. We need alternatives. I knew Ainsworth couldn't kick but I assumed he had possibilities as a tough inside mid. More fool me. It has to be Liam. Brief glimpses from 2020 showed he was now up to it. We have Witherden to cover Duggan down back (as could Rotham) so time to bring Liam to the centre. We need to get XON nice and hungry. He has developed his body well enough now to be able to compete. He and Liam need to be the ground ball contested beasts.We are 18th is this stat (or thereabouts) so it needs addressing.
3. Wingers bringing outside link and support - Gaff to the centre made sense when we were short but he is better on his wing. Get rid of the dead defensive wing and select 2 wingers. The Masten role is a safety net in case we get the ball turned over. Good teams are not taking this option any more. If we lose a couple of goals each game by not having the defensive wing, then fine. We will probably score more from not having the wasted role than save. We need a partner for Gaff. I can see Waterman as a possibility. He has shown he can play the high half forward which is not that different to the wing role. His tank is good and his reading of the play has developed very well. Time for Gaff and Snake to own the wings.
4. Who to be the third tall in defense? We have Hurn and Sheppard who have played the role and also Schofield. Our options are twofold - Rotham or Brander. Let's see who is the hungriest. We get better endurance from Brander but better leg speed from Rotham. Let this be a really good contest in the pre-season. Who knows, they may even put pressure on Hurn to keep his spot. Hurn was well down on his production in 2020 and his kicking is no longer elite. He has become very predictable from kick ins and he is failing to go for the riskier pass that opens up the play.
5. Small Forwards - Ryan and Cripps are a lock. We are missing Willie big time and I think Langdon will be a starter. That leaves Cameron. Is he over his injury? It really did hold him back in 2020. Just love his tackling pressure. When we are playing the likes of Ah Chee, Ainsworth, Reid, Hutchings, etc in the forward line, we look poor. Question mark over Petruccelli - if he can get a proper go at it, he could be an option. Having a WAFL competition to play in will help big time for him as he needs to develop his forward craft. Who knows with Winder, he might get a chance.
1. Second Ruck - Bailey Williams come on down. Oscar Allen is talented. Oscar Allen is our best emerging KPF. Oscar Allen looks to have put on some serious muscle so far in the pre-season. BUT Oscar Allen is no second ruck option. Going back to 20 minute quarters, West Coast cannot afford to lose the momentum when Oscar goes into the ruck. Bring in Bailey Williams. Hell - even the reporters at the Herald Sun are seeing his value:-
READY TO TAKE THE NEXT STEP
Oscar Allen stepped up in the forward line in 2020 and expect him to continue to develop yet again. Nic Naitanui will again have the reins in the ruck — and why wouldn’t he, he’s a superstar — but Bailey Williams continues to sprout under him. Keep an eye on him as a back-up if required. Tim Kelly will be much more settled after a full year at his new club, while Alex Witherden — if he can cement his spot — has an opportunity to go to the next level out west.
Nobody is doubting the prospects of our next KPF. But FFS, he is not a backup ruckman and we go backwards whenever he goes to the ruck.
2. Tackling Inside Mid - With the question mark on Elliott Yeo's fitness, we need another option in the guts and that option emerged last year in Liam Duggan. Shuey's body needs to be protected, Sheed is more outside than inside, Kelly and Gaff needs to be the first handball receive, we are running out of options. West Coast went backwards when Yeo was injured. We need alternatives. I knew Ainsworth couldn't kick but I assumed he had possibilities as a tough inside mid. More fool me. It has to be Liam. Brief glimpses from 2020 showed he was now up to it. We have Witherden to cover Duggan down back (as could Rotham) so time to bring Liam to the centre. We need to get XON nice and hungry. He has developed his body well enough now to be able to compete. He and Liam need to be the ground ball contested beasts.We are 18th is this stat (or thereabouts) so it needs addressing.
3. Wingers bringing outside link and support - Gaff to the centre made sense when we were short but he is better on his wing. Get rid of the dead defensive wing and select 2 wingers. The Masten role is a safety net in case we get the ball turned over. Good teams are not taking this option any more. If we lose a couple of goals each game by not having the defensive wing, then fine. We will probably score more from not having the wasted role than save. We need a partner for Gaff. I can see Waterman as a possibility. He has shown he can play the high half forward which is not that different to the wing role. His tank is good and his reading of the play has developed very well. Time for Gaff and Snake to own the wings.
4. Who to be the third tall in defense? We have Hurn and Sheppard who have played the role and also Schofield. Our options are twofold - Rotham or Brander. Let's see who is the hungriest. We get better endurance from Brander but better leg speed from Rotham. Let this be a really good contest in the pre-season. Who knows, they may even put pressure on Hurn to keep his spot. Hurn was well down on his production in 2020 and his kicking is no longer elite. He has become very predictable from kick ins and he is failing to go for the riskier pass that opens up the play.
5. Small Forwards - Ryan and Cripps are a lock. We are missing Willie big time and I think Langdon will be a starter. That leaves Cameron. Is he over his injury? It really did hold him back in 2020. Just love his tackling pressure. When we are playing the likes of Ah Chee, Ainsworth, Reid, Hutchings, etc in the forward line, we look poor. Question mark over Petruccelli - if he can get a proper go at it, he could be an option. Having a WAFL competition to play in will help big time for him as he needs to develop his forward craft. Who knows with Winder, he might get a chance.
Carbine Chaos
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But if we bring in Williams we’re lumped with Kennedy-Darling-Allen-Naitanui-Williams. Waterman is too good not to play, but how can he in that line up?
How can Brander ever get a game? In the back line, presumably, but where does that leave Rotham as the logical third tall?
We’ll be relying on injuries to allow us to play a balanced line up as we’re unlikely to have the stones to make the difficult calls.
How can Brander ever get a game? In the back line, presumably, but where does that leave Rotham as the logical third tall?
We’ll be relying on injuries to allow us to play a balanced line up as we’re unlikely to have the stones to make the difficult calls.
FreeTK
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Brander will be going to the backline as 3rd tall when required, or to come in when McGovern/Barrass miss. The only reason Rotham was ahead of Brander is because Brander was training with the mids and it is my sense that the coaches tried to use Branders "versatility" to recreate him as a mid to not push Rotham out. Now that has failed, Brander will go back in to defense and there is no doubt in my mind that Brander will push Rotham out pretty quickly.
In terms of Waterman, my sense is he is rated higher on this board then he is by coaches (I rate him highly as well). I remember before the Sydney match, Simmo explained Waterman's selection as 'someone who has a lot of passion for the jumper' which was a quote that stuck out for me. Waterman got a lot of games this year due to the fact that we simply didn't have small forwards and often went with an extra tall who is mobile. Waterman is rarely (if ever) in our first choice team when everyone is available, and I think that is a bit sad to be honest, because I think he has a lot to offer. Given we have improved our small forward stocks and it is unlikely we will have the same high number of injuries in that part of the ground, no doubt Waterman will be pushed out of the team in the forward line.
I really like the game Waterman played up on the Wing (was it round 16?). I wouldn't mind seeing him play more through the middle as a wingman who can push back in the defense, similar to how Geelong play Duncan/Blicavs in that same role. I felt like he did that very well in the elimination final as well. I remember him going back for support a few times and taking a few good grabs. I'd like to see Simmo do that more and switch around some magnets, but it's pretty clear that Waterman will find it difficult to hold down a spot in our forward line in 2021.
Carbine Chaos
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FreeTK
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I have had this same discussion about 1000 times on this board, and your opinion seems to be the majority opinion amongst posters on here. I guess that is what the off-season is for.
We will know more in a few short months, but it is pretty fair to say I disagree with that view quite strongly.
Brander is an elite talent who has had his opportunities compromised from being thrown around the ground too much. Once he is settled in a role at one end of the ground or the other (and it looks like it will be defense) I don't think it will take too long to see him blossom.
I do think Rotham has a fair bit to offer, but I just like Brander's skillset more. Rotham is blue collar, Brander is blue ribbon.
Waterman to the wing for me. He is too good not to play and allows us to bring Baily in to second ruck. He also seems built for the modern wing role. Completely agree with Asterix here.
Don’t forget Jamaine Jones as a potential small forward / mid rotation. He may not be a walk up start but in the small sample we saw, he showed a lot.
Don’t forget Jamaine Jones as a potential small forward / mid rotation. He may not be a walk up start but in the small sample we saw, he showed a lot.
Carbine Chaos
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Waterman to the wing is just another example of playing somebody out of position because of an unbalanced list.
I maintain we should have encouraged Kennedy to retire. We’re not winning the flag next year, let’s be honest.
Rotham is faster, better overhead, stronger at the man, better at reading the play and a significantly better kick, particularly in the short to mid range.
Brander is taller, more agile, has better endurance, long term is potentially the better interceptor, long term with more muscle can play key defence and is more naturallly gifted.
However we are talking 2021. It's taken Rotham 4 years development in the same position to get to the point of having a fifth preseason and going into next year likely to push a defender out of the best 22. Brander is certainly a high level talent however it is almost impossible to see him having one preseason and being the better player for the role. In 2-3 years time with further development sure, he could be the better player, but he's not right now and 1 preseason isn't going to change that.
Once hurn retires with significant development both could even be playing in the same side. But until then it's unlikely unless there's a major injury and if we're talking key defender stakes Brander still needs to overtake Harry Edwards.
All the talent in the world counts for squat unless you can put it together and into a role that improves a side. The horrible kicker is i genuinely think brander can put it all together, but he won't give us the time for that to happen and it'll happen at another club. As it stands right now and if he doesn't put it all together he's brent staker mark 2 and thats if he shows more than he has currently as staker had shown more at this stage of his career.
Williams can play as a KPD and alleviate the need for a 3rd tall defender. He played there for the Stingrays.
So it is a matter of 2 of - Allen/Brander/Williams. At this stage, I would back in Williams ahead of Brander. What draft number they were taken at is irrelevant.
No point in just looking at the best 22. We will have injuries and hence best 28 is more relevant.
Barrybran
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It's not an ideal lineup but we're reasonably close to not having Kennedy and Naitanui in the lineup. I'd like to see Bailey Williams play more as I would rather see him play as a second ruck and have OA focus on being a KPF.
FreeTK
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I personally think Brander is a better contested mark. Rotham has had more opportunities to show his overhead prowess as he has played in the backline and that is where the ball is coming in more, vis a vis Brander on a wing.
I don't think people realise just how big Brander is. He is lean through his arms, but he is an absolute unit through his chest and trunk. He is bigger than Oscar.
But in general I think you have given a pretty decent overview of their respective qualities. Brander certainly squibbed a few kicks during the season, but he also nailed quite a few (feel free to reminisce at some of his great kicks in his highlights video).
One of the reasons I rate Brander higher is Rotham is a year older, has been settled in the same position since the time he was drafted, and yet they both find themselves in similar situation, having played 10-15 games without having locked in a spot in B22.
Rotham has had everything go his way, and Brander has had nothing go his way, and yet they are pretty much even stevens.
Like I said in my previous post above (and many others) we will know a lot more come the Marsh series, and early in the season.
My gut tells me that Brander's biggest issue has been not having a settled position and he will put things together pretty quickly once he is settled in defense.
The truth of the matter is that it is all conjectural as Rotham/Edwards have never competed with Brander for a spot in the team, so we could just find ourselves in a circular argument for months on end until round 1, and that is not how I wish to spend my summer.
If it turns out that there is availability in the backline and Rotham holds it down and Brander can't break in to the team, I will happily admit I am wrong, but all the signs I can read coming out the club (perhaps coloured by my own personal opinion) is that Brander is one of the most highly rated young players on our list and that will most likely be reflected come selection time.
Williams seemed pretty raw in the games he did play in 2020... I agree that Oscar isn't a 2nd ruck, especially now that we know quarter length is back to 20 minutes as it is too tough on his body as an undersized ruckman, but I would have thought the more likely scenario is Naitanui/Allen and Naitanui/Williams if we rest JK with Oscar/JD playing FF/CHF.
I can't think of too many times where Simmo has had a ruck go back in to defense. It's a very plausible option, and lots of teams do it, but I am not sure if it is something that Simmo is likely to do.
That's fair a fair assessment based on what both have shown at AFL level.
I have always gotten the impression that Brander's timidity is related more to a lack of confidence/composure due to playing out of position. Settle him in a position he was drafted for, and that will most likely fall away.
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But we should have kept an out of form tissue paper calf jetta for another season? Pick a lane
Carbine Chaos
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Who was Jetta holding back developmentally? Nelson? Cole? Whoop di doo.
Adding Withers, while a solid acquisition individually, makes us pretty slow coming out of the backline next year.
I wouldn’t have been unhappy had Kennedy retired as I think he is blocking the path of some young talls. That said, his output last year was ok so they were never going to force him out.
i disagree with you on Waterman. He plays high half forward mostly and has effectively played wing or close to it in that role many times. I don't think it is playing him out of position at all (unlike what we tried with Brander). If there is a better option then so be it but not sure who that is and he would do the role well with his gut running and footy nous. He can also play third tall forward but isn't limited to that or really needed for that.
FreeTK
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Kennedy will be the first domino to fall and that will clear the way for our surplus of talls, but I learnt from 2020 not to write him off.
If he feels that his body is right to go again, and he has the desire to do so, it's his choice in my opinion.
Given 2021 will see a return to 20 minute quarters and travel every second week, we don't know whether he will be able to play every week.
Part of his new deal is an agreement (verbal I believe) that he will stay on and coach after this year.
The other option is he might be an assistant coach whose currently on the list so his salary comes out of the TPP rather than the soft cap (I think this is a bit unlikely).
I believe that is the arrangement with Carlton and Eddie Betts.
The ball kicked accurately (going forward) travels much faster than a ball in hand
Carbine Chaos
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Not a ringing endorsement for our treatment of Jetta either way.
I’m as much a pessimist as the next bloke but this is rubbish in that no one is guaranteed to win the flag next year. We are in a group that if it breaks right could finish top two and ride home finals into a GF. Certainly no reason to throw away 2021
Carbine Chaos
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We certainly have the names to win the flag.
Perth have the names to win the BBL.
It’s not the names that concerns me. It’s the unbalanced sides we’ll be putting out, the general malaise that has set in post 2018...I certainly hope they make me look a fool. Because nothing in the past two years is flag indicative.
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Kennedy will turn back the clock and kick 60+ and win the Coleman and 7 goals in the GF and the Norm Smith and a 2nd premiership medal.
Pretty obvious
Pretty obvious
Let's just say that Jets was not ready for what life threw up for him during Covid . I am not going to spit out the info but may I suggest you give the "Jets was screwed" message a rest. He is starting to get his act back together so let's leave it at that.
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This is why our MC are not up to snuff. Waterman brings it all to the table. Passion, ability and the facking fire to stand tall in the clutch. Dobs a key goal from outside 50 after the siren vs Sydney. You can't coach bottle.
Some have it, some don't. Snake has it.
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