List Mgmt. 2023 Draft Thread - Part I

[stavro#4]

It's funny how things are perceived. I thought Butler was playing higher up than in previous years, and was doing some good things...in a bit of a different role. Kicked over 30 goals, and only 3 or 4 less than Higgins who was still playing the typical small forward role. I had Butler ahead of Higgo by a margin.
I think Higgins is great when switched on, but is otherwise a bit like King, in that he seems to pick and choose his moments, which is bloody frustrating to watch.
Butler, just keeps on keeping on, but is definitely prone to the absolute "mare" of a game. He needs to be a bit more aware of his limitations.
Better to have someone try and occasionally fail though, than stand there like a witches hat, or just be completely unsighted.
Effort is non-negotiable. Butler, I don't think, can be questioned on that.

Two years in a row that Higgins has largely gone missing after about a third of the season (albeit some excuses for 22). At least Butler shows up and we need that role.

Gee we are terrible at being subjective on this board.

Higgins kicked 36
Butler kicked 33

In a side decimated by injuries to talls. Especially tall forwards.

Playing in a forward line surrounded by Caminiti Pou Owens Sharman Gresham Cordy and half a season of King.

Ross has a very good record of getting small forwards to perform. Both our boys had good years and yet the scope to improve for both is there and plentiful.

 

[stavro#4]

It’s not long ago both Wilson & Windsor were ranked in the late teens, as was James Leake…which means there must be a couple of sliders.
I’m confident Chris Toce has done his homework & will be well prepared when our picks come up.
A lot’s been said about mids & leg speed but one thing that we also need more of is quality ball use!

Still feel like we will land one of those 2 at our pick.

I feel like it’s another year of who Essendon doesn’t pick. We will.

Not sure either suit the swans or the crows for that matter.

 

[MrFoster]

Still feel like we will land one of those 2 at our pick.

I feel like it’s another year of who Essendon doesn’t pick. We will.

Not sure either suit the swans or the crows for that matter.

I feel that we need ball winners and genuine accumulators in the midfield, not just those waiting for handball receives..

I know George Stevens is labelled as a pure inside mid, but apart from Crouch, I don’t think we have another.. Steele is more a tackler, Owens is a work in progress.. Dow maybe able to help..

But nothing in the reserves if injury bites.. I’ll say let other clubs go for the “sexy” seagul type mids like Windsor, we need real mids for a change.

 

[stavro#4]

I feel that we need ball winners and genuine accumulators in the midfield, not just those waiting for handball receives..

I know George Stevens is labelled as a pure inside mid, but apart from Crouch, I don’t think we have another.. Steele is more a tackler, Owens is a work in progress..

I feel like pick 21 is where we get a more genuine inside mid.

But worth pointing out, it’s Dow Owens Windhager Pou Clark that will offer us improvement immediately - not sure whoever we take in this draft will have a Phillipou like season next year.

More an Owens in 22 type season.

 

[MrFoster]

I feel like pick 21 is where we get a more genuine inside mid.

But worth pointing out, it’s Dow Owens Windhager Pou Clark that will offer us improvement immediately - not sure whoever we take in this draft will have a Phillipou like season next year.

More an Owens in 22 type season.

If we can get a high potential combo-mid (half forward/mid) with pick 13, then also worth while, but no point getting a Hill type player who can’t win his own ball when we haven’t sorted our ball winning issue.

 

[stavro#4]

If we can get a high potential combo-mid (half forward/mid) with pick 13, then also worth while, but no point getting a Hill type player who can’t win his own ball when we haven’t sorted our ball winning issue.

We obviously view this differently.

I think we take the best available and if that’s let’s say Windsor a pure outside mid. You take him.

We shouldn’t try and over engineer filling our list need by taking a lesser prospect

 

[Joffaboy]

We have nothing anything like Collard. I rate Higgins, but Butler leaves a lot to be desired.

Absolute rubbish, Butler is the best defensive forward at the club. And he is a goal kicker.
We don't need another small forward when we are crying out for mids.

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[Remboy]

If we can get a high potential combo-mid (half forward/mid) with pick 13, then also worth while, but no point getting a Hill type player who can’t win his own ball when we haven’t sorted our ball winning issue.

Two guys that would help in that area would be Jones and McKenzie. They can both win their own ball and have pace. Unfortunately there’s no guarantee either of them plays.
I don’t know enough about Hotton but I’m still hopeful he becomes a player.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Gee we are terrible at being subjective on this board.

Higgins kicked 36
Butler kicked 33

In a side decimated by injuries to talls. Especially tall forwards.

Playing in a forward line surrounded by Caminiti Pou Owens Sharman Gresham Cordy and half a season of King.

Ross has a very good record of getting small forwards to perform. Both our boys had good years and yet the scope to improve for both is there and plentiful.

Higgins kicked most of those in the first third or so of the season. That part was fabulous.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I feel that we need ball winners and genuine accumulators in the midfield, not just those waiting for handball receives..

I know George Stevens is labelled as a pure inside mid, but apart from Crouch, I don’t think we have another.. Steele is more a tackler, Owens is a work in progress.. Dow maybe able to help..

But nothing in the reserves if injury bites.. I’ll say let other clubs go for the “sexy” seagul type mids like Windsor, we need real mids for a change.

Its hard to get a read on Windsor & Wilson… are they pure outsiders or do they have the capability to become dual mids ala Sam Walsh? (Obviously not to his level)


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[Winmar2Lockett]

Absolute rubbish, Butler is the best defensive forward at the club. And he is a goal kicker.
We don't need another small forward when we are crying out for mids.

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You’re only taking Collard if they see him developing into a Shai Bolton type midfielder IMO.


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[SaintsSeptember]

Two guys that would help in that area would be Jones and McKenzie. They can both win their own ball and have pace. Unfortunately there’s no guarantee either of them plays.
I don’t enough about Hotton but I’m still hopeful he becomes a player.

On very odd occasions McKenzie has won a good amount of contested possessions, 10 or 11 that sort of level.
Best ever total possessions. 23. ( one time ).
I wouldn't hold him up as a poster child for winning the ball.

 

[StCicatriz]

You’re only taking Collard if they see him developing into a Shai Bolton type midfielder IMO.


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given butler is 27 and it'll take any draftee 3 years to get going... i dont think it matters.

you just go best available and the most likely to adapt to an AFL environment and grow into an elite player. no matter what the position is.

theres going to be holes on every line over the next 3-5 years. we have positional needs everywhere. just go best available.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

given butler is 27 and it'll take any draftee 3 years to get going... i dont think it matters.

you just go best available and the most likely to adapt to an AFL environment and grow into an elite player. no matter what the position is.

theres going to be holes on every line over the next 3-5 years. we have positional needs everywhere. just go best available.

I have no issues with best available… but if the last 2 years has shown us anything, writing kids off for 3 years is nothing more than a guess.


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[SteeleSaints]

given butler is 27 and it'll take any draftee 3 years to get going... i dont think it matters.
you just go best available and the most likely to adapt to an AFL environment and grow into an elite player. no matter what the position is.
theres going to be holes on every line over the next 3-5 years. we have positional needs everywhere. just go best available.

We will need to add to our small forward brigade at some stage, whether it occurs at this years draft will depend on who falls where I gather. Im not against targetting one with our later picks, I just think taking Collard at our first is a huge gamble. He is likened to Shai Bolton, it doesnt garuantee he will get there. There will be other options available later in the draft.

 

[St Neil]

Gee we are terrible at being subjective on this board.

Higgins kicked 36
Butler kicked 33

In a side decimated by injuries to talls. Especially tall forwards.

Playing in a forward line surrounded by Caminiti Pou Owens Sharman Gresham Cordy and half a season of King.

Ross has a very good record of getting small forwards to perform. Both our boys had good years and yet the scope to improve for both is there and plentiful.

Higgins was either hit or miss. Very good sometimes, MIA just as much. But he is not a genuine pressure defensive forward. He is an offensive crumbing forward.

Higgins kicked 2+ goals in 10 of his 22 matches, and there were only three matches where he was goalless.

Butler kicked 2+ goals in 11 of his 24 matches, but were eight matches where he was goalless. Significant difference there. Higgins was kicking goals in more matches than Butler.

But Butler laid 101 tackles in 24 matches, whereas Higgins only laid 43 tackles in 22 matches. That’s the difference in the way they both play. Butler’s workrate without the ball usurps that of Higgins.

Higgins has to kick goals because he isn’t providing enough pressure on the opposition defence when they have the ball. It’s as simple as that. I think Higgins needs to kick more than 1.5 goals a games if he isn’t putting pressure on opposition defences.

I think Saints could use an extra high pressure defensive small forward in the draft. Certainly not with picks 13 and 21, but later in the draft, if there is a good one still available. If Butler doesn’t play we don’t seem to have a back-up option for that type of role.

 

[StCicatriz]

We will need to add to our small forward brigade at some stage, whether it occurs at this years draft will depend on who falls where I gather. Im not against targetting one with our later picks, I just think taking Collard at our first is a huge gamble. He is likened to Shai Bolton, it doesnt garuantee he will get there. There will be other options available later in the draft.

if you take the two guys tholstrup and collard from the same club. there's a fair argument to made there is no scope for improvement for tholstrop he's almost the finished product similar to daniel rich when he was drafted out of the same club tholstrup will be. daniel rich actually showed ALOT more as an inside mid than tholstrup has. dom sheed had more scope for improvement and he showed more as an inside mid.

collard on the other hand is greenfields almost. there's a huge scope for improvement. but the bust factor will be higher i think.

both aren't mids and don't look like they will ever be full time mids.

traditionally this board writes off small fwds though, especially if they're from WA. only need to go back through the discussion we've had on players like Hill and Cameron to see that. outside of gringo pretty much everyone dismissed them instantly.

 

[SteeleSaints]

if you take the two guys tholstrup and collard from the same club. there's a fair argument to made there is no scope for improvement for tholstrop he's almost the finished product similar to daniel rich when he was drafted out of the same club tholstrup will be. daniel rich actually showed ALOT more as an inside mid than tholstrup has. dom sheed had more scope for improvement and he showed more as an inside mid.

collard on the other hand is greenfields almost. there's a huge scope for improvement. but the bust factor will be higher i think.

both aren't mids and don't look like they will ever be full time mids.

traditionally this board writes off small fwds though, especially if they're from WA. only need to go back through the discussion we've had on players like Hill and Cameron to see that. outside of gringo pretty much everyone dismissed them instantly.

I dont disagree if we had a number of early picks eg North we should be all over Collard. Bobby Hill was taken in the 2nd round at #24 and Cameron was initially a rookie pick up, although when traded was worth more. They are hit and miss as the broad draft variance suggests.

I can see Collard's upside vs risk, I just think this year we need to take midfielders with our early pick/s, who are more of an now list need.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I dont disagree if we had a number of early picks eg North we should be all over Collard. Bobby Hill was taken in the 2nd round at #24 and Cameron was initially a rookie pick up, although when traded was worth more. They are hit and miss as the broad draft variance suggests.

I can see Collard's upside vs risk, I just think this year we need to take midfielders with our early pick/s, who are more of an now list need.

Just seems that some of the mids around our pick are more of a risk than Collard.

 

[Joffaboy]

Just seems that some of the mids around our pick are more of a risk than Collard.

How can anyone tell that when they are 18 y.o.?
We need midfielders, had done so for a decade, but as usual we ignore them.

Did nobody see what GWS did to our midfield in the final?

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[StCicatriz]

How can anyone tell that when they are 18 y.o.?
We need midfielders, had done so for a decade, but as usual we ignore them.

Did nobody see what GWS did to our midfield in the final?

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how many guys aren't full time inside mids at U18 level that then transition into full time inside mids at AFL level?

i legit can't think of one.

 

[gringo2011]

We haven't had a good goal sneak since Milney. Collard is Milney with turbo chargers.

Delean I reckon is a bit of a Milney. Little lead up forward/ goal sneak. Not particularly fast or defensive or anything but just knows how to kick goals.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

I feel that we let a lot of young players go too early. Such is the pressure of the draft and list sizes I guess.
Would be good if we could let them go to any aligned or non aligned comp apart from afl but keep ownership of them somehow and pluck them back out if they’ve shown something.

 

[MrFoster]

Delean I reckon is a bit of a Milney. Little lead up forward/ goal sneak. Not particularly fast or defensive or anything but just knows how to kick goals.

Yes, Delean looks really good. Just knows where the goals are and I read somewhere he has kicked 50+ goals in all competitions this year.

Meanwhile think we can change up the forward set up by swapping Higgins and Henry depending on match ups. Henry is quick and can stick a tackle. Hopefully Higgins can also play mid for periods of time effectively.

 

[Joffaboy]

how many guys aren't full time inside mids at U18 level that then transition into full time inside mids at AFL level?

i legit can't think of one.

Not many, looking at our mids 2-3 seasons ahead.

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