Discussion 2023 General AFL Discussion - Part II

[pebblesofsand]

Well then they mustn’t spruik equalisation.
Just admit it’s all about the $$$

And they don't get the $'s unless the comp is relatively equal.

And the only way they can make sure the comp is as equal as possible is to "compromise" it.

We needed extra support because the Administration stuffed up the Seaford move - didn't hear people carrying on about that compromise.

North have won 40 games in 7 years - what they've got this year is fair and reasonable.

 

[Mat Mann]

And they don't get the $'s unless the comp is relatively equal.

And the only way they can make sure the comp is as equal as possible is to "compromise" it.

We needed extra support because the Administration stuffed up the Seaford move - didn't hear people carrying on about that compromise.

North have won 40 games in 7 years - what they've got this year is fair and reasonable.

and we've won 1 cup in 150 years, where is our handout?

North admin ****ed up their club, too focused on debt reduction they forgot to fund a football program, gutted the list and now is utter trash but still have more top 20 picks than us and have just been handed the biggest concessions bar CG ever, how exactly isn't North responsible for their situation but somehow we are for Seaford.

we were instructed by the AFL to get competitive when the smarter move would have been to keep gutting the list 5 years ago.

8 different sets of rules at play

and by compromising the fixture as they have they have created such a gulf that the smaller clubs will never crawl out of, the knock-on effect of crap fixtures has on sponsorship value to player attraction is simply far too big to ever be called equalisation even if you double those distributions

 

[gringo2011]

Doesn’t work. Play Saints vs North on Anzac Day and only 30k will show up.

And never change it and others can never bridge the gap either.

 

[Mat Mann]

And never change it and others can never bridge the gap either.

it's not even as if they have to change it much, other clubs need a slice of the TV pie, 2 less Pies/Blues/Rich/Ess Prime time games isn't going to hurt them any, but getting 2-3 games for the smaller clubs would be pretty big I'd imagine

 

[pebblesofsand]

and we've won 1 cup in 150 years, where is our handout?

North admin ****ed up their club, too focused on debt reduction they forgot to fund a football program, gutted the list and now is utter trash but still have more top 20 picks than us and have just been handed the biggest concessions bar CG ever, how exactly isn't North responsible for their situation but somehow we are for Seaford.

we were instructed by the AFL to get competitive when the smarter move would have been to keep gutting the list 5 years ago.

8 different sets of rules at play

and by compromising the fixture as they have they have created such a gulf that the smaller clubs will never crawl out of, the knock-on effect of crap fixtures has on sponsorship value to player attraction is simply far too big to ever be called equalisation even if you double those distributions

But here we are - 3 games seperated 6th to 14th in 2023.

And 4 different teams in the finals this year from last year.

And 11 different teams have won the premiership since 2000

And the most profitable club in the comp has won 5 games in two years.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Seriously North will be raided in a few time and I’m not just thinking players. Watch Tassie poach Brady as their list manager. I’d laugh so hard if he drafts McKercher and overreaches slightly for Sanders as a Top 5 pick

I won't laugh.
The deal will be something like .....

Tassie Devils will be entitled to any currently listed Tasmanian players.
Compensation will be an end of first round pick, unless the team name is an Australian Mammal, in which case they will be awarded the first pick in the draft and a future first round pick.
Any team with a name beginning with S, will not be compensated for their Tasmanian players.

 

[Mat Mann]

But here we are - 3 games seperated 6th to 14th in 2023.

And 4 different teams in the finals this year from last year.

And 11 different teams have won the premiership since 2000

And the most profitable club in the comp has won 5 games in two years.

so you agree, North's handouts are the anomaly?

kind of my point though

equalization has worked, to an extent, but now we are stepping further and further away from that.
WC won't be down for long, far too many ways for bigger clubs to haul themselves out of the shit. we all shit's and giggle over Geelong and property, heres a club(WC) so over the top on off-the-book deals it's not even spoken about anymore. But Morso WC will be bottom for a few more years, do they get compo like North did? again, they are crap of their own making.

why didn't Carlton get more compo, they were just as poorly run, why didn't Melbourne?

 

[StFly]

and we've won 1 cup in 150 years, where is our handout?

North admin ****ed up their club, too focused on debt reduction they forgot to fund a football program, gutted the list and now is utter trash but still have more top 20 picks than us and have just been handed the biggest concessions bar CG ever, how exactly isn't North responsible for their situation but somehow we are for Seaford.

we were instructed by the AFL to get competitive when the smarter move would have been to keep gutting the list 5 years ago.

8 different sets of rules at play

and by compromising the fixture as they have they have created such a gulf that the smaller clubs will never crawl out of, the knock-on effect of crap fixtures has on sponsorship value to player attraction is simply far too big to ever be called equalisation even if you double those distributions

Is what gets me.

We get the ex AFLPA president in Finnis to right our books as shizen.
We then get the ex AFL operations manager in Lethers as he diddled on the job, great CEO in waiting.

These are big guys in AFL footy, big big guys to right our football club in a guy that oversaw the entire playing list and CBA agreements and the guy that would, in time, run the entire competition. Both at the club both at the same time. IF that is not a directive to sort your shit out, I dunno what is in AFL parlance.

So we do, and we come from a lets go to Tassie, lets go to NZ, lets go to China mindset as a club to try and get outta funk, so the will was there and the way was given to us by the graces of the AFL being a boys club. Meanwhile...

North have a cry and a whinge cause the AFL want them to explore QLD. They have a cry and a whinge cause the NT needs games randomly. They spruik Good Friday and literally no one shows up, not even the players, club, no shits were given, and they cry and whinge for handouts from all and sundry cause Arden street is a street as opposed to a suburb or area to grow in.

So everyone over 25 they say GTFO we don't need you, gimmie children, hey, hey Clarko, I know you're being investigated from mafioso crap but come here, let me hug you, you guys in suits that want to actually not have a cry and a whinge, you can GTFO too, and the AFL hold their hands, give their head a little pat and say there there, here's more handouts, try and breach 4m in your balance sometime this decade thanks.

North say no problem and plateau at 3 and panic for handouts.

When do they get the boot and get directed to fix their shit? or is the Shinboner spirit one of being too damned proud and obstinate to recognise your own failings and fix them with help?

 

[Diehard Saint]

so you agree, North's handouts are the anomaly?

kind of my point though

equalization has worked, to an extent, but now we are stepping further and further away from that.
WC won't be down for long, far too many ways for bigger clubs to haul themselves out of the s**t. we all s**t's and giggle over Geelong and property, heres a club(WC) so over the top on off-the-book deals it's not even spoken about anymore. But Morso WC will be bottom for a few more years, do they get compo like North did? again, they are crap of their own making.

why didn't Carlton get more compo, they were just as poorly run, why didn't Melbourne?

Actually Melbourne got plenty ( for tanking) - pick 3 for James Frawley for example as well as an afl funded coach in Paul Roos. Also other stuff I can’t remember.

 

[Mat Mann]

Actually Melbourne got plenty ( for tanking) - pick 3 for James Frawley for example as well as an afl funded coach in Paul Roos. Also other stuff I can’t remember.

do you believe Clarko went to North without the AFL's backing, like Roos
Frawly - pick 3
McKay - potential pick 3

Melb like Carlton($2m) got a cash injection they never had to pay back, how much have the AFL written off of our loan?

it's funny that we are admonished to get our house in order publicly yet not a peep to North about their predicament, who are instead gifted the biggest concessions of any club bar GC.

 

[sauce_head]

Gil is absolutely correct.

The whole comp is compromised (drafting, academies, income distribution, salary caps, fixtures even where the finals are played) and everyone including Scott and Lyon know it.

Thought Lyon was stupid making those comments and Gil actually went easy on him - could have easily pointed out how much extra financial assistance the Saints have got over the past 10 years.

Saints paid the lion share of the afl acquiring docklands stadium for $1. If we had played they same amount at the G we would have had dozen of millions of dollars more. We have put 800,000 more people through that stadium than the next best, yet we have an inferior deal to Essendon at the ground and we are forced to forgo profit for the benefit of the AFL. Once that is resolved talk about saints financial assistance packages…

Not to mention gaming machines and the level that some clubs operate them (and we are by no means the best in this area).

It makes me absolutely sick when I hear people compare financial situations without having a clue about what is behind the scenes.

 

[sauce_head]

disagree completely...

north is on the same financial assistance as us... how is it north melbourne have been given the approval by the AFL to cut the list so god damn hard when we had the AFL tell us to be competitive ASAP

north get reward with on field assistance despite having much more first round draft pick players on their list than us

whilst we had to do it the hard way through expansion concessions with no help what so ever

And sh ithouse docklands home ground package.

 

[sauce_head]

And they don't get the $'s unless the comp is relatively equal.

And the only way they can make sure the comp is as equal as possible is to "compromise" it.

We needed extra support because the Administration stuffed up the Seaford move - didn't hear people carrying on about that compromise.

North have won 40 games in 7 years - what they've got this year is fair and reasonable.

We need extra support because the AFL won’t equalise the profitabiiity of home ground venues. It’s as simple as that.

 

[sauce_head]

Oh for an uncompromised competition (except for this bit of course).

"Geelong, Collingwood, Hawthorn and West Coast each received more than $50 million less than St Kilda in AFL funding over the past decade."

Look up poker machines and amount of people put through docklands and the associated profitability.

Who paid for the Eagles new hike ground?

 

[George]

so you agree, North's handouts are the anomaly?

kind of my point though

equalization has worked, to an extent, but now we are stepping further and further away from that.
WC won't be down for long, far too many ways for bigger clubs to haul themselves out of the s**t. we all s**t's and giggle over Geelong and property, heres a club(WC) so over the top on off-the-book deals it's not even spoken about anymore. But Morso WC will be bottom for a few more years, do they get compo like North did? again, they are crap of their own making.

why didn't Carlton get more compo, they were just as poorly run, why didn't Melbourne?

I think he's trolling. There's no way you can think that clubs like ours get a fair share. There's just no way. Primetime games at the MCG bring in a fortune of revenue and half of some clubs fixtures are those kinds of games.

Whilst clubs like ours are handcuffed to a horrible Docklands deal and play little to no genuine marquee games each year. Collingwood for example play at least 10 of our 150th celebration games a year.

The talk of an even playing field, or anything close to it, is genuinely laughable. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or trolling. That stuff about us getting 5-6m more per year than the biggest clubs in the league makes me piss. Collingwood would be earning near on a million dollars per game at the MCG. West Coast is an institution in WA. Geelong get the luxury of playing out of their own boutique stadium AND get huge games at the MCG every year.

Scott made an excellent point on Monday. North have been more successful than we have over the last 10 years and we haven't received a single thing in terms of draft assistance packages whilst they seem to go to the well every 2nd year. It's even more of a disgrace because they get all this but they were the ones that put themselves in the situation to begin with.

We pretend like we're a world class sporting league but really we're just glossed up amateurs. It's bush league stuff. No one size fits all approach. Some clubs get this, some clubs get that. Oh here you go you can have this over here, whilst you guys over there can't. Instead of everyone playing each other once like a truly fair comp would, lets have all the financially wealthy clubs stuff our pockets by playing each other twice, whilst the stragglers get stuffed into the graveyard slots. The rich clubs get richer and the poor clubs are left to squabble amongst themselves.

For clubs like ours to win a premiership we need to both be elite off-field, elite on-field, AND have a bit of luck along the way. Theres so much riding against us to win a flag that we need to go above and beyond to reach the mountain top.

 

[austinnn]

And that extra financial assistance would not have been required if us and the Roos weren't being screwed for over a decade on a stadium deal that paid down docklands for the entire AFL !!!! Losing money on crowds under 30k while the Dopers had a grandfather deal that stipulated that NO-ONE ELSE was allowed a superior deal than Essendon! In fact, Essendon received the profits any Saints merch sold from the merch store inside the ground!!

That Docklands deal was infuriating, they must have had us over an absolute barrel, I don't get why Plympton and Co would sign off on it instead of the MCG which was much closer. Screwed us for a generation financially.

 

[austinnn]

Doesn’t work. Play Saints vs North on Anzac Day and only 30k will show up.

Create an "average MCG attendance" ladder from the last 5 years and pair up teams 1 & 18, 2 & 17, etc.

 

[Mat Mann]

I think he's trolling. There's no way you can think that clubs like ours get a fair share. There's just no way. Primetime games at the MCG bring in a fortune of revenue and half of some clubs fixtures are those kinds of games.

Whilst clubs like ours are handcuffed to a horrible Docklands deal and play little to no genuine marquee games each year. Collingwood for example play at least 10 of our 150th celebration games a year.

The talk of an even playing field, or anything close to it, is genuinely laughable. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or trolling. That stuff about us getting 5-6m more per year than the biggest clubs in the league makes me piss. Collingwood would be earning near on a million dollars per game at the MCG. West Coast is an institution in WA. Geelong get the luxury of playing out of their own boutique stadium AND get huge games at the MCG every year.

Scott made an excellent point on Monday. North have been more successful than we have over the last 10 years and we haven't received a single thing in terms of draft assistance packages whilst they seem to go to the well every 2nd year. It's even more of a disgrace because they get all this but they were the ones that put themselves in the situation to begin with.

We pretend like we're a world class sporting league but really we're just glossed up amateurs. It's bush league stuff. No one size fits all approach. Some clubs get this, some clubs get that. Oh here you go you can have this over here, whilst you guys over there can't. Instead of everyone playing each other once like a truly fair comp would, lets have all the financially wealthy clubs stuff our pockets by playing each other twice, whilst the stragglers get stuffed into the graveyard slots. The rich clubs get richer and the poor clubs are left to squabble amongst themselves.

For clubs like ours to win a premiership we need to both be elite off-field, elite on-field, AND have a bit of luck along the way. Theres so much riding against us to win a flag that we need to go above and beyond to reach the mountain top.

pretty spot on
Wookie does a breakdown and on last year we are $18m down on Pies memberships/matchday alone, $22m down on WC
$9m behind Melbourne who I believe are maybe a smidge bigger attendance-wise, but says a lot $ wise - $4m less in distributions

 

[Mat Mann]

That Docklands deal was infuriating, they must have had us over an absolute barrel, I don't get why Plympton and Co would sign off on it instead of the MCG which was much closer. Screwed us for a generation financially.https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2022-club-financial-results.1336935/post-7815169

The initial Docklands deal we had was decent, I recall initial projections were about $2m better off than Waverly.

Dockland and the AFL, once these initial contracts had run their course, came to a deal that covered Saints, North, and Dogs, hobbled us all with a standardized contact to the AFL for the poor returns we saw for over a decade. Once the AFL took control, and only after the initial year, was a new deal to said 3 clubs, Ess and Blues probably got in on the action too no doubt. this new deal saw another projected jump of about $2m in revenue.

Conveniently the AFL also re-did the MCG deal that saw those clubs get a guaranteed 100k a game plus increased retuns, so really all the AFL did was ensure we remain status quo.

 

[Sully111]

I know it wouldn't happen, but imagine if all the clubs got together and decided none of them would trade with North this year.

Keep your players... shove your picks up your arse.... you're stuck with them for next year.

Would be delicious.

 

[gringo2011]

That Docklands deal was infuriating, they must have had us over an absolute barrel, I don't get why Plympton and Co would sign off on it instead of the MCG which was much closer. Screwed us for a generation financially.

I spoke to his mum. She reckoned that we had been in negotiations with the Hawks to take over the lease for Waverley and they went and signed with the MCG in the meantime. The AFL had a deal on the table for the first club to make themselves the "anchor tenant" at Docklands, Essendon were wanting to play at the G but they looked over the deal and got such a ridiculously generous package that all other tenant there were basically funding them.

We were left without a home and had to go cap in hand and beg the AFL to let us in to the Docklands and as the club that came in last we were left with an absolutely punishing deal.

The AFL then gave the Hawks a renovated Waverley park for a dollar which gave them a huge financial boost while we stayed with our shitty broken down suburban ground.

 

[George]

What also makes me laugh is the media that wank over the sport every day. Gerard and Robbo drooling over everything the league does, how apparently popular and exciting it is. You'd think we're up there with the most popular sports in the world.

Then the reality of our pretend elite sport hits home when Kiss are the Grand Final entertainment. I love Kiss, but they're all in their 70's ffs. Is this the best we can do? You've got the NFL rolling out worldwide superstars of 2023 and we're here happy clapping over superstars of 1983.

It's this kind of stuff that really makes it all a bit of a joke to me. Our umpires are part time. We have a goal review system built from a potato, our ticketing system is in the dark ages and geriatrics are performing on our sports biggest day. It's a pisser, cringeworthy and a bit embarrassing to be a supporter of.

 

[Minga]

What also makes me laugh is the media that wank over the sport every day. Gerard and Robbo drooling over everything the league does, how apparently popular and exciting it is. You'd think we're up there with the most popular sports in the world.

Then the reality of our pretend elite sport hits home when Kiss are the Grand Final entertainment. I love Kiss, but they're all in their 70's ffs. Is this the best we can do? You've got the NFL rolling out worldwide superstars of 2023 and we're here happy clapping over superstars of 1983.

It's this kind of stuff that really makes it all a bit of a joke to me. Our umpires are part time. We have a goal review system built from a potato, our ticketing system is in the dark ages and geriatrics are performing on our sports biggest day. It's a pisser, cringeworthy and a bit embarrassing to be a supporter of.

The awards consistently get it wrong, the MRO/Tribunal is a farce, there’s Vic bias galore, and a lack of incentive of accountability by the AFL to change anything.

And that’s before you even take into account the many problems with the AFLW.

 

[StCicatriz]

i just find it hilarious the very person who put north in the terrible on field position they're in now by gutting the list which you'd argue could be seen as tanking... was promoted to the AFL and one of the first things she did was to give the club she wrecked priority pick assistance. so to clean up her own mess.

just a decade after they ran Dean Bailey and Chris Connolly out of the game for "tanking".

its beyond laughable.

tanks back on guys just in time for west coast and geelong to rebuild.

 

[StFly]

I spoke to his mum. She reckoned that we had been in negotiations with the Hawks to take over the lease for Waverley and they went and signed with the MCG in the meantime. The AFL had a deal on the table for the first club to make themselves the "anchor tenant" at Docklands, Essendon were wanting to play at the G but they looked over the deal and got such a ridiculously generous package that all other tenant there were basically funding them.

We were left without a home and had to go cap in hand and beg the AFL to let us in to the Docklands and as the club that came in last we were left with an absolutely punishing deal.

The AFL then gave the Hawks a renovated Waverley park for a dollar which gave them a huge financial boost while we stayed with our shitty broken down suburban ground.

Sounds about right from what I heard from Bombers peeps at the time, G centric (as who wasnt?) "hang on a sec" and yoink, then reading about the Hawks dealing with the AFL on the side was a bit good luck to them and a bit you bastards.

Given that Waverley was sold to help finance Dockland, we really should have been first cab off after Hawks flew the coop since closing & selling home ground, but nope, much like history, afterthought and "oh, we did this, tough shit, HEY EVERYONE, FREE GRUB" was the choice made. Then when Jackson left Andy D just went $$$$ and no shits were given as physically sold end of '02 and Andy D rocks in April '03.