Discussion 2023 General AFL Discussion

[StCicatriz]

You do realise even allowing them access to Sanders is an excessive handout.

Imagine our club this year if we also had Cam Mackenzie

It’s a free top 10 pick.

This and let's be honest the narrative around draft assistance coming from the big clubs has suddenly changed now that they're all looking like spending time down the bottom of the ladder.

Funny that.

This has zero to do with North and everything to do with Geelong, hawthorn, wce and Richmond.

 

[StFly]

Concentrate on the facts not specualtion and filler from footy journalists.

"The AFL this week had assured clubs it would not manipulate the free agency compensation formula to help the Roos get Pick 3, even if McKay’s salary doesn’t meet the ‘band one’ requirements."

As for Sanders, the only thing that's been raised is whether he can be considered an NGA given that he would have been a North NGA if his paperwork has been finalised in normal time frames.

Everything else is pure speculation.

You want speculation?

Oakley cared about the game and nationalising it.
Jackson cared about the game and the have nots within it.
Demetriou cared about money, and nothing but.
Gil cared about the game and community, butchered the first.

Where Oakley and Jackson would look at the North instance and state "HTFU and grow a pair FFS or I'll ship you to NT" Andy nods, goes back to his bank balance, adds a zero, states "that will be all", smokes a cigar. Gil is the Iraqi minister asking people to look away at the mound of shit he has to navigate from Randy who gave no shits, you wanna beat women go for it, ride with murderers, sure, mad benders of illicit drug use, you bet, half arse documentation of things, why not, childs play, lookit the cash BABY! Gill is about that community until he has to deal with the fallout from Randy rodgering it.

Fresh Gil gives that compo, current Gil says pick an Andy: Andrew who hasn't had a chance to sit in the high chair yet or Randy who rodgered it good and proper. Will this next admin be the salty runback we deserve as supporters of a neglected game?

 

[CursingFijian]

I think he's knocked this out of the park. Talented list. Great weather. New start. He'll be loving life.

Johnathon Brown also said on the couch that the talent coming through their junior program at the moment is very good.

I think the Allies won a championship this year led by GC Academy talent.

Hardwick should be able to build a very good list quickly by the sound of it.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

 

[pebblesofsand]

I think most people have said “if” then it will be a rort.

Would be * all to chat about on here if we didn’t speculate or discuss, you know, actual media reports.

I've got no problem with speculation, just find it strange that people suggest that its terrible that the AFL might manipulate the rules to help North out (Sanders & NGA) then suggest the AFL manipulate the rules (McKay & FA compo) to punish them.

Priority picks and Free Agency compo are two completely separate things to be dealt with independently.

As for Priority Picks generally, personally I think North were dudded last year. They got this year's Pick 19 and 39 which they had to trade - so they effectively got Pick 11 as their priority Pick.

Hardly a huge handout given North have been shite for a while. And as someone has pointed out, we've done a lot better out of compo picks than most clubs.

 

[gringo2011]

Johnathon Brown also said on the couch that the talent coming through their junior program at the moment is very good.

I think the Allies won a championship this year led by GC Academy talent.

Hardwick should be able to build a very good list quickly by the sound of it.

Their list is already excellent. So much quality on every line and heaps of depth. People equate list quality to ladder position, they have underachieved.

 

[gringo2011]

I've got no problem with speculation, just find it strange that people suggest that its terrible that the AFL might manipulate the rules to help North out (Sanders & NGA) then suggest the AFL manipulate the rules (McKay & FA compo) to punish them.

Priority picks and Free Agency compo are two completely separate things to be dealt with independently.

As for Priority Picks generally, personally I think North were dudded last year. They got this year's Pick 19 and 39 which they had to trade - so they effectively got Pick 11 as their priority Pick.

Hardly a huge handout given North have been shite for a while. And as someone has pointed out, we've done a lot better out of compo picks than most clubs.


View attachment 1781886

Priority picks were changed and not handed out like they were. It's irrelevant what went on in the past. They didn't have academies, free agency and all the other draft manipulations then. They might as well just go back to zones if they are going to **** it all up any way.

It's a severely broken system as it is with some clubs stripping out multiple players inside the first round. The Dogs who made a GF and recently off a premiership get a pick 1 for some later picks etc. Whoever takes over needs to review the system. Everything they've done is about giving free hits to the NSW and GC sides. They want to have the option of corruption but then if some clubs make enough noise they'll pay them off by giving them a suck on the tit.

 

[phantom13]

I've got no problem with speculation, just find it strange that people suggest that its terrible that the AFL might manipulate the rules to help North out (Sanders & NGA) then suggest the AFL manipulate the rules (McKay & FA compo) to punish them.

Priority picks and Free Agency compo are two completely separate things to be dealt with independently.

As for Priority Picks generally, personally I think North were dudded last year. They got this year's Pick 19 and 39 which they had to trade - so they effectively got Pick 11 as their priority Pick.

Hardly a huge handout given North have been shite for a while. And as someone has pointed out, we've done a lot better out of compo picks than most clubs.


View attachment 1781886

I’m not suggesting that they will manipulate the rules to punish them, I’m noting that the AFL would absolutely consider what pick they get as compensation for the FA based on what oick they currently have.

Ultimately salaries are not disclosed to us and the AFL and clubs behind closed doors could do whatever they like. You honestly believe there’s never been a convo about signing a 4 year deal for x dollars to hit the compo band then immediately “restructuring” the contract? The AFL themselves has acknowledged it’s possible for it to be manipulated and if both clubs wins up happy I don’t think the AFL would give a shit.

The feel of north having 1, 2, 2(compo), 3 and a top 10 NGA prospect in 2 years of drafting would be an ugly prospect from an outsiders viewpoint and I couldn’t imagine they would let that happen.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Priority picks were changed and not handed out like they were. It's irrelevant what went on in the past. They didn't have academies, free agency and all the other draft manipulations then. They might as well just go back to zones if they are going to * it all up any way.

It's a severely broken system as it is with some clubs stripping out multiple players inside the first round. The Dogs who made a GF and recently off a premiership get a pick 1 for some later picks etc. Whoever takes over needs to review the system. Everything they've done is about giving free hits to the NSW and GC sides. They want to have the option of corruption but then if some clubs make enough noise they'll pay them off by giving them a suck on the tit.

"Priority picks were changed and not handed out like they were." Exactly my point - so far North have not been handed a massive advantage via priority picks. In fact as I've said - I think they've been hard done by.

"It's irrelevant what went on in the past." I'll keep that in mind the next time you talk about our drafting.

As for Northern clubs getting extra advantages - unless you can convince all the players from the other clubs to have their income drop by 25%, I think it will continue for a bit a longer so get used to it.

Love F/S - only thing I don't like is the ability to bundle up late picks to pay for a player especially a first rounder.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

 

[CursingFijian]

North have been competitive in the second half of this season, and that’s in the face of injuries to Zurhaar, Logue, McDonald, Comben, LDU, and Wardlaw. They also have the supposedly best coach in the AFL.

They have a midfield that is stacked with proper talent.

If they need help it’s in their footy program, not their list I reckon.

 

[stavro#4]

"Priority picks were changed and not handed out like they were." Exactly my point - so far North have not been handed a massive advantage via priority picks. In fact as I've said - I think they've been hard done by.

"It's irrelevant what went on in the past." I'll keep that in mind the next time you talk about our drafting.

As for Northern clubs getting extra advantages - unless you can convince all the players from the other clubs to have their income drop by 25%, I think it will continue for a bit a longer so get used to it.

Love F/S - only thing I don't like is the ability to bundle up late picks to pay for a player especially a first rounder.

Since RTB was last here in 2011.

We have made 1 finals campaign - this will mark our second.

In those 12 years, North have made 4 finals campaigns including 2 Prelims.

We lost a #1 pick to injuries.

They selected a flight risk and traded him out for 2 first rounders - they then bundled one of these picks and pick 1 for picks 2/3

They have effectively cut to the core of their list and refused to go after more experienced talent in favour of youth. Why are we then going to reward that with additional concessions for the second year running?

Even if they are allowed access to Sanders. It is effectively a leg up that we never received with Mackenzie last year and we are a side who has had LESS SUCCESS then they have both in the time RTB was here last and our entire existence.


Ask a North supporter if their future is ****ed and all you’ll hear is about the plethora of young talent they have and how it’s better then ours.

Anything more then Sanders is absolutely BS and even that completely sticks the finger up at us for what we lost last season.

Their comparison is GC, an expansion side in a non afl heartland who have lost more talent then the Roos could ever imagine. They are not similar examples.

There is no way North should be getting more support then they already have and if they NEED more picks they should be forced to trade them for established talent and develop off rookie lists and later picks like everyone else.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I’m not suggesting that they will manipulate the rules to punish them, I’m noting that the AFL would absolutely consider what pick they get as compensation for the FA based on what oick they currently have.

Ultimately salaries are not disclosed to us and the AFL and clubs behind closed doors could do whatever they like. You honestly believe there’s never been a convo about signing a 4 year deal for x dollars to hit the compo band then immediately “restructuring” the contract? The AFL themselves has acknowledged it’s possible for it to be manipulated and if both clubs wins up happy I don’t think the AFL would give a s**t.

The feel of north having 1, 2, 2(compo), 3 and a top 10 NGA prospect in 2 years of drafting would be an ugly prospect from an outsiders viewpoint and I couldn’t imagine they would let that happen.

I'm pretty sure there's not a rule or law in the world that has not been manipulated by someone somewhere.

The basic situation is this - North so far has only got limited priority picks outside of normal draft processes.

"The feel of north having 1, 2, 2(compo), 3 and a top 10 NGA prospect in 2 years of drafting would be an ugly prospect from an outsiders viewpoint and I couldn’t imagine they would let that happen."

Lets break that down

They got Pick 1 in 2021 for being last - normal draft allocation

In 2022 JHF decides to do a runner so they trade him and 2022 Pick 1 (normal draft allocation) for Pick 2 & 3 and another first rounder this year (normal trading process).

If they get Pick 2 compo this year (or end of 1st round) it will because they have lost a free agent (normal FA process)

So that leaves us with Sanders and the NGA situation where the outcome is completely unknown.

They've asked for additional assistance again this year - ATM what they will get is completely unknown but based on the what they've got so far I can't see it being substantial.

 

[sunny3193]

I’ve said this before: moral hazard.
Rewarding incompetence/intentional ineptitude.

Why stop here?
What happens if they finish last again next year because their problems are due to things other than talent?

 

[phantom13]

I'm pretty sure there's not a rule or law in the world that has not been manipulated by someone somewhere.

The basic situation is this - North so far has only got limited priority picks outside of normal draft processes.

"The feel of north having 1, 2, 2(compo), 3 and a top 10 NGA prospect in 2 years of drafting would be an ugly prospect from an outsiders viewpoint and I couldn’t imagine they would let that happen."

Lets break that down

They got Pick 1 in 2021 for being last - normal draft allocation

In 2022 JHF decides to do a runner so they trade him and 2022 Pick 1 (normal draft allocation) for Pick 2 & 3 and another first rounder this year (normal trading process).

If they get Pick 2 compo this year (or end of 1st round) it will because they have lost a free agent (normal FA process)

So that leaves us with Sanders and the NGA situation where the outcome is completely unknown.

They've asked for additional assistance again this year - ATM what they will get is completely unknown but based on the what they've got so far I can't see it being substantial.

So you acknowledge that rules get manipulated but then also get shitty when someone suggests that the free agency rules might get manipulated.

I’m done with this convo. You think over explaining situations and scenarios people alread understand gives you some sort of upper hand but your base argument is flawed.

Ultimately it’s a difference of opinion, you’re comfortable with North getting whatever the AFL seems suitable. I’m not. And this all started because I noted that North getting pick 1 instead of 2 might impact how the books get cooked for the FA compo, a scenario you’re acknowledging yourself could very well happen.

 

[gringo2011]

"Priority picks were changed and not handed out like they were." Exactly my point - so far North have not been handed a massive advantage via priority picks. In fact as I've said - I think they've been hard done by.

"It's irrelevant what went on in the past." I'll keep that in mind the next time you talk about our drafting.

As for Northern clubs getting extra advantages - unless you can convince all the players from the other clubs to have their income drop by 25%, I think it will continue for a bit a longer so get used to it.

Love F/S - only thing I don't like is the ability to bundle up late picks to pay for a player especially a first rounder.

It’s not irrelevant to our current list what happened in the past though is it. We will be paying for it until that era of players retire and we’ve rebuilt what they stuffed up. Living in fantasy land lets them off the hook. If they’d acted instead of burying their heads we wouldn’t have wasted years. Even when it was obvious that it was an issue you defended them. You want me not to bring it up because of self interest.

Trying to equate North getting assistance outside the rules to our self inflicted poor drafting is a stretch anyway. We never got assistance for our bad management in the last decade. Why should North. They already have the basis of a good list. Screwing up the draft will just make holes in other lists that they’ll have to manipulate the draft for later. Another lot of high picks won’t help them now anyway.

 

[phantom13]

This is all before noting that every club might have some issues with North getting to plunder the draft a few years before Tassie comes in and plunders it.

 

[stavro#4]

This is all before noting that every club might have some issues with North getting to plunder the draft a few years before Tassie comes in and plunders it.

finally, we are on the same page.

 

[pebblesofsand]

So you acknowledge that rules get manipulated but then also get shitty when someone suggests that the free agency rules might get manipulated.

I’m done with this convo. You think over explaining situations and scenarios people alread understand gives you some sort of upper hand but your base argument is flawed.

Ultimately it’s a difference of opinion, you’re comfortable with North getting whatever the AFL seems suitable. I’m not. And this all started because I noted that North getting pick 1 instead of 2 might impact how the books get cooked for the FA compo, a scenario you’re acknowledging yourself could very well happen.

I'm only having to fully explain the situation because people seem to have the idea that because North get multiple Pick 1's because they finished last and then traded well when forced into a unenviable position, that equates to them having got truckloads of assistance from the AFL.

They haven't.

It’s not irrelevant to our current list what happened in the past though is it. We will be paying for it until that era of players retire and we’ve rebuilt what they stuffed up. Living in fantasy land lets them off the hook. If they’d acted instead of burying their heads we wouldn’t have wasted years. Even when it was obvious that it was an issue you defended them. You want me not to bring it up because of self interest.

Trying to equate North getting assistance outside the rules to our self inflicted poor drafting is a stretch anyway. We never got assistance for our bad management in the last decade. Why should North. They already have the basis of a good list. Screwing up the draft will just make holes in other lists that they’ll have to manipulate the draft for later. Another lot of high picks won’t help them now anyway.

See there's the flaw in this discussion. What assistance outside of the rules have North actually received so far? The answer - zero.

People can make up as many hypothetical's as they like about the future (how about us getting Pick 1 next year because we've only won 1 GF - discuss!!) but it doesn't change the situation - North have not got loads of assistance from the AFL.

 

[phantom13]

I'm only having to fully explain the situation because people seem to have the idea that because North get multiple Pick 1's because they finished last and then traded well when forced into a unenviable position, that equates to them having got truckloads of assistance from the AFL.

They haven't.

See there's the flaw in this discussion. What assistance outside of the rules have North actually received so far? The answer - zero.

People can make up as many hypothetical's as they like about the future (how about us getting Pick 1 next year because we've only won 1 GF - discuss!!) but it doesn't change the situation - North have not got loads of assistance from the AFL.

No again, you have misunderstood (certainly my position but id wager most others as well).

No one is unclear about the fact that to date they havent had any assistance, i am pointing out that their current draft hands and outcome is self inflicted. They cut their list to the bone and bottomed out harder than anyone in history, they ****ed their coaching arrangements and wound up burning Rhyce Shaw out for about the salary a low level public servant makes. Theyve mismanaged a facility redevelopment and at just about every possible level made poor choices about club and business for a few years.

In addition to that i am pointing out that based on perception them getting pick 3 for McKay to go along with their actual pick 2 would be a big benefit but also one that on perception seems okay, or palatable. Getting pick 2 to go with their actual pick 1 is a huge leg up that I (and i would think many of the clubs) would take issue with. Then throw in the potential NGA concession and the looming compromised drafts of the Tassie induction and it all winds up in this perfect storm where i think the AFL would be certifiable to give them pick 2 as McKay compo and the NGA kid and either scenario would still be a tough pill to swallow.

Again, this has been explained ad naseum, it seems you think only you could possibly grasp that its only this years compo (whilst also acknowledging that were all only speculating about it anyway which also seemed to piss you off).

Even gringo2011 s post that youve quoted doesnt reference them having already recieved any assistance outside the rules, hes discussing what they might get this year, hes also not speculating with some stupid scenario like yours hes discussing scenarios that are well reported by the AFL media. Now they might be wrong, the AFL might backflip, the ****ing world might end tomorrow but it shouldnt preclude us from discussing it.

 

[Joffaboy]

Their list is already excellent. So much quality on every line and heaps of depth. People equate list quality to ladder position, they have underachieved.

In the end, ladder position is the only KPI for list quality, or are you with Lizzo's mate who reckon we should be 17th?

 

[phantom13]

In the end, ladder position is the only KPI for list quality, or are you with Lizzo's mate who reckon we should be 17th?

Ladder position doesnt account for potential.

Norths list looks alot better for the next 5 years than West Coasts

 

[Joffaboy]

Ladder position doesnt account for potential.

Norths list looks alot better for the next 5 years than West Coasts

I think you misunderstand, to me the final results in ladder position is all that you can really count on. Every thing else is speculation and names and hype.
Carlton have been finals bound every year for a decade, they made it this year, Essendon are always going to be a finals team, usually top four, haven't won a final for two decades, GC has always had great potential and great players since inception, never made the finals.

Yeah it sounds a narrow view but it is all that counts in the end. Names on a list mean nothing unless results come along.

 

[beside the seaside]

Ladder position doesnt account for potential.

Norths list looks alot better for the next 5 years than West Coasts

I think people are starting to realise that a list is more than a handful of stars. Bevos comments on the Bulldogs list were very interesting. Basically suggested that their list gets rated because of a handful of guns, but in this day and age you need to bat down to 22/23.

Conversely, people have said we are terrible because we don't have many recognised stars (besides the fact people have been sleeping massively on Sinclair and Wilkie). But reality is the experts that predicted our demise either have no actual idea about AFL lists, or no actual idea about our list. I suspect it's both.

North Melbourne are going to come last three years in a row. I think we can draw a reasonable conclusion that their list right now is appalling. And they will need more than just a couple of high picks becoming good.

 

[phantom13]

I think people are starting to realise that a list is more than a handful of stars. Bevos comments on the Bulldogs list were very interesting. Basically suggested that their list gets rated because of a handful of guns, but in this day and age you need to bat down to 22/23.

Conversely, people have said we are terrible because we don't have many recognised stars (besides the fact people have been sleeping massively on Sinclair and Wilkie). But reality is the experts that predicted our demise either have no actual idea about AFL lists, or no actual idea about our list. I suspect it's both.

North Melbourne are going to come last three years in a row. I think we can draw a reasonable conclusion that their list right now is appalling. And they will need more than just a couple of high picks becoming good.

Bevo is full of shit.

They have 3 AA quality mids, probably the best ruckman in the game, 4 blokes who walk up start as the number 1 or 2 key forward at nearly every other club, a decent lock down defender, one of the best interceptors in the game, 2 AA half backs. Dont listen to a man deflecting on a wasted season.

Im not comparing north to ****ing Carlton but would you rather be coaching them for the next 3 years with Larkey, Zurhaar, LDU, Sheezel, Wardlaw, McKay, Xerri and whoever they net this year or the Eagles who have a busted McGovern and busted Yeo a busted Darling, Allen, Barass and Kelly?

Potential would have them above the Eagles on a power rankings list.