List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

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4thchicken said:
One of the toughest seasons in memory for watching games - partly due to expectations on performance, and partly due to the lack of drive/gamestyle that we've implemented. The way the club is atm, we are uninspiring - if we continue like this for another 5-6 games, then we need some drastic changes

Going early but I think we need a significant list overhaul - I'd happily trade Cripps, TDK & Fisher for picks or young highly skilled players - McKay wouldnt be out of the question either if he doesnt regain confidence in kicking

Cripps - 1st round pick from a WA club (if possible)
Mckay - 1st round pick from Sydney + player
Fisher - 3rd round pick from anyone
TDK - 1st round pick /early 2nd

Sack Voss, poach hardwick, or bring in a coach that can teach of solid game plan/tactics that suit the list. Load up, sacrifice the next couple of years and peak as Tassie enters the comp
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Called this a few weeks ago - one of the toughest seasons in memory for watching games - team performance/coaching/game plan and development is rubbish - Having watched a few VFL games in between where we've run a similarly poor game style, I'd add development is rubbish

Cripps -> Pay part salary is we could get a top 10 pick
McKay -> Pay part salary is we could get a top 10 pick
Fisher + TDK -> top 15 pick

Wonder if we could entice Ratten to come back to coach us - pretty much been the only decent coach we've had in the past 20 years. FMD
 
4thchicken said:
Called this a few weeks ago - one of the toughest seasons in memory for watching games - team performance/coaching/game plan and development is rubbish - Having watched a few VFL games in between where we've run a similarly poor game style, I'd add development is rubbish

Cripps -> Pay part salary is we could get a top 10 pick
McKay -> Pay part salary is we could get a top 10 pick
Fisher + TDK -> top 15 pick

Wonder if we could entice Ratten to come back to coach us - pretty much been the only decent coach we've had in the past 20 years. FMD
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Soon to be 3 time failed coach Ratten. No thank you.
 

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Unfortunately, Adam Cooney said it 100% correct tonight. DEPTH! We have around 12 to 16 very good players but after that it's a revolving door of the same not good enough player who comes in and lacks in a lot of areas and doesn't give much.

We also have some of our leaders really having a very off year.

It's not time for a rebuild but a rejig in my mind. We need to free up some salary cap space and remove a lot of players not up to it and again hit the draft. Last year's crop seems OK so far and we need another 10 very good kids into the club over the next 2 years to compliment some of our "then" senior stars.

Must trade out a player or 2 with currency otherwise a 1st round pick and that's it this year won't be much help
 
HereComesJuddy said:
Unfortunately, Adam Cooney said it 100% correct tonight. DEPTH! We have around 12 to 16 very good players but after that it's a revolving door of the same not good enough player who comes in and lacks in a lot of areas and doesn't give much.

We also have some of our leaders really having a very off year.

It's not time for a rebuild but a rejig in my mind. We need to free up some salary cap space and remove a lot of players not up to it and again hit the draft. Last year's crop seems OK so far and we need another 10 very good kids into the club over the next 2 years to compliment some of our "then" senior stars.

Must trade out a player or 2 with currency otherwise a 1st round pick and that's it this year won't be much help
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Rebuild, rejig, it's really all semantics. A club doesn't have to do it all in one year but they need to do what they need to do. I count about 11 to 15 players but it's hard to know exactly how many. That's because there's a small group that tease but then either lose form at the drop of a hat or get injured.

People are, perhaps understandably, weary of the word 'rebuild' because we've been there before without success. There are others even calling for a 'Dad's Army' scenario because we lack leadership. However, how do we truly rate how we've gone about a rebuild in the past? We can see if we can lure a few seasoned unrestricted free agents who might view us as a bit of a pity mission but apart from that, we can't fix mistakes with more mistakes. It's about time we took ownership and did it right this time.
 
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Literally don't care what happens this off season as long as we find a way to get Watson and Wilson. Outside of Reid the biggest w***ers in the draft and 2 of the best talents. I don't think I can bare to watch another game let alone another decade with these monotone librarians running around afraid to take the game on.
 
Would like us to find a pick in the MSD if it’s not too late. The obvious way would be to retire Ed but I don’t think the club will do that.

Need to find some ready to go speed and X factor at half forward.

Lowson would be the one from what I’ve seen.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Literally don't care what happens this off season as long as we find a way to get Watson and Wilson. Outside of Reid the biggest w***ers in the draft and 2 of the best talents. I don't think I can bare to watch another game let alone another decade with these monotone librarians running around afraid to take the game on.
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I just don't care period
 
Can we please find a small forward who isn’t a “nuggety” type- they are all physically very similar.
Would very much like to see 5.9- 6.1 wiry, lightning quick small forward.
We don’t seem to recruit the wiry, lean, quick type players (think Armfield, Rankine, Shai Bolton etc) it’s all small, stocky.
It’s around the ground too- we don’t seem to have that type of athlete at the club - everyone else seems too - swans have a heap Heeney, Blakey, Fox, Florent, Lloyd, Warner etc. Not saying recruit solely on build but we literally don’t have players like that all across the ground.
 
It is impossible to evaluate any player on the list, senior or reserves, right now.

The game style, poor training and complete lack of confidence across the group render everything moot.

Is TDK any good, for example? I have no idea, because yesterday his role appeared to be 'part time ruckman who spends the rest of the game jumping in front of where Charlie Curnow and Harry McKay are supposed to be getting in each others way'.

I have said before this season reminds me a heap of 2014. Second year under a mature coach who had no idea about how to play to the strengths of the group, who played favourites and mind games with the players and when a talented, mature list started significantly underperforming.

We made the mistake in 2014 of beginning a clean out of the 'guys the coach didn't like': Waite, Robinson, Garlett plus some injury related retirements (Scotland, Duigan). That followed similar the year before (Betts, Hampson, Laidler). Then when the wheels fell off in 2015 we had a Henderson, Yarran, Bell leave and Judd retire, and auddenly we had lost the core of our list and ended up totally imbalanced between old and young guys. Hence 8 years of rebuilding and nothing to show.

We have to be extremely cautious this off season. The temptation is going to be to blame the players and go for a cull.

But we already have an age bracket gap on our list - we are already thin right now in the 20-23 age bracket by virtue of some horrendous drafting/development (take you pick of explanation there) and then trading picks for Saad, Cerra etc. Anything that further strips back this group is a huge risk when you consider the age of Cripps, Docherty, Saad.

The other huge mistake we made in 2014 was trying to trade in guys in the 20-22 age bracket to fill a perceived gap there (on that occasion caused by expansion). Hence the Jaksch/Whiley/Boekhurst debacle.

My take is we will probably have a couple of forced moves this year and should then really just try to keep the pieces together with a new coach. Of course being Carlton we will probably trash the list and start another '66 game rebuild' but that would be very stupid imo
 
We are not one or two players from making it “click”. The culture and mentality within the four walls is a basket case.

The circuit breaker is not going to be a couple players, but key personnel. I’ve said it several times about a more senior assistant / Director or Coaching appointment. Hell, get a DoC and look to poach a highly credentialed senior assistant, or someone with senior coaching experience.

Injecting talent will not cure the disconnect on the ground, the yips in front of goal, the blatant missing of 15 m passes etc.

If there aren’t any changes to arrest the lull, then I’m not surprised if someone like H looks elsewhere for a fresh start, TDK walks (looks likely anyway at this stage) and other shake ups.
 
Highly probable list changes at year end:
  1. Ed Curnow - Retirement
  2. Lachie Plowman - Delist
  3. Paddy Dow - Delist / traded for practically nothing
  4. Mitch McGovern - Departs as an unrestricted free agent
  5. Tom DeKoning - Traded for a pick in the 20's
  6. Lachie Fogarty - Delist
  7. David Cunningham - Delist
  8. Caleb Marchbank - Delist
Players to shop around:
  1. Jack Martin - Likely untradeable, but free to good home if anyone will take him.
  2. Zac Williams - Likely untradeable, but free to good home if anyone will take him.
  3. Matt Owies - We've got too many of this type of player. He's the oldest. Back in Durdin/Motlop who are 5-6 years younger. Hope for a pick in the 30's.
  4. Matt Kennedy or George Hewett - I don't think you can play two one-paced inside midfielders in the same team. Personally I rate Kennedy higher given he is a bit more versatile. Hope for a pick in the 30's.
  5. Jack Silvagni - Test trade market, but likely retain for depth. Doubt a pick inside 50 is offered.
If the club wants to go nuclear, new coach, new leadership group (Walsh captain) & flag window years away:
  1. Patrick Cripps - Send home to Perth. Signal massive change in direction. Best football behind him. Won't be playing when Carlton next contend.
  2. Charlie Curnow - Sell high. Net massive return + free up ~$1m of salary cap. Forward line arguably no better with McKay and Curnow in same side anyway.
 

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Luke Breust should be our number 1 target in the off season. He oozes composure and leadership, everything we're lacking in the forward half.

Sign him up for 2 years to help mentor our small forwards and provide a calming presence for Harry and Charlie.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Is it too late to get on the Nuclear bandwagon?

Austin it's time to make Hiroshima look like child's play
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Ever been to Hiroshima?
Tens of thousands of kids died, many literally burning from the outside in.
Not really the kind of action that’s going to help us.
 
Amongst other things, I think we lack speed through the midfield.

I would like to see Binns & Dow be given a block of games to see what they can do & bring Fisher in for Owies.

I am not sure of another team that has 3 specialist small forwards who contribute as little as Owies, Durdin & Motlop.
 
BlueVision said:
Amongst other things, I think we lack speed through the midfield.

I would like to see Binns & Dow be given a block of games to see what they can do & bring Fisher in for Owies.

I am not sure of another team that has 3 specialist small forwards who contribute as little as Owies, Durdin & Motlop.
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You and 85 odd thousand members would probably want to see this, 12 or so people who work for the club think otherwise. Binns will come in at some point, I doubt Dow will.
 
Gointocarlton said:
You and 85 odd thousand members would probably want to see this, 12 or so people who work for the club think otherwise. Binns will come in at some point, I doubt Dow will.
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If Hewett and Cripps miss with injury, and Ed and Cerra are suspended, then I think the coaches hands will be forced.

Cripps being injured might actually be the circuit breaker we need to play Dow for a block and see how he goes.
 
Michael Jezz said:
Sorry Mate Dow played 2 games last year and was garbage. Think about it 66 opportunities to show everyone he can run both ways, tackle and kick.
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If you think an average of 17 possessions 3 tackles and 2.5 marks is garbage enough to be banished for ever, then I don’t know if you actually follow this sport.

Have a look at some of the poor individual efforts from players this year, they are a lot worse.

Dow was given 2 games last year, that’s hardly enough time to build any continuity.

Why is he held to a different standard than others?
 
It's frustrating to me that for a club has not played finals in 10 years, we seemingly have a very tight salary cap (although we will obviously get some relief from that at the end of the season with some big money players OOC)

Would like our club's accountants in future be a bit more frugal/prudent with our Salary Cap spending, and try not be seduced so much by big money/glamour recruits and try build and develop organically via the draft.
 
Michael Jezz said:
Sorry Mate Dow played 2 games last year and was garbage. Think about it 66 opportunities to show everyone he can run both ways, tackle and kick.
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Against Collingwood he had 21 possessions, 10 contested. 5 tackles. 4 centre clearances (top stat for both teams)
How is that garbage?
 
BlueVision said:
Amongst other things, I think we lack speed through the midfield.

I would like to see Binns & Dow be given a block of games to see what they can do & bring Fisher in for Owies.

I am not sure of another team that has 3 specialist small forwards who contribute as little as Owies, Durdin & Motlop.
Click to expand...

At the start of this round Owies was third in the league for average goals per game for small forwards (behind Cameron and Greene).

His 11 goals in 5 games were the same as our primary midfield (Cripps, Walsh, Kennedy, Cerra, Hewitt and Ed Curnow) had managed in 53 games combined.

Not quite sure why Owies is the one who deserves to be dropped. Three small forwards does seem overkill at times given none of them contribute as midfielders even in bursts. In that case Motlop is probably having more impact and Durdin should be the one to go out.
 
4thchicken said:
Called this a few weeks ago - one of the toughest seasons in memory for watching games - team performance/coaching/game plan and development is rubbish - Having watched a few VFL games in between where we've run a similarly poor game style, I'd add development is rubbish

Cripps -> Pay part salary is we could get a top 10 pick
McKay -> Pay part salary is we could get a top 10 pick
Fisher + TDK -> top 15 pick

Wonder if we could entice Ratten to come back to coach us - pretty much been the only decent coach we've had in the past 20 years. FMD
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Wow, just plain WOW. You'd give up the Brownlow medallist and recent Coleman medallist because they are having a bad season.
This is just pure mind boggling.
 
btdg said:
At the start of this round Owies was third in the league for average goals per game for small forwards (behind Cameron and Greene).

His 11 goals in 5 games were the same as our primary midfield (Cripps, Walsh, Kennedy, Cerra, Hewitt and Ed Curnow) had managed in 53 games combined.

Not quite sure why Owies is the one who deserves to be dropped. Three small forwards does seem overkill at times given none of them contribute as midfielders even in bursts. In that case Motlop is probably having more impact and Durdin should be the one to go out.
Click to expand...

Long term I think Durdin & Motlop have more future than Owies. I also think both might be able to pinch hit in the midfield for short bursts during a game.
 
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