Training 2023 Pre-season thread

[Nunez]

Just makes for better headlines if it doesn't come off

Or if it does come off.

I get the media hate (I certainly had many a gripe last year) but actually think we've been covered quite positively this year. I think it's a result of our viewership in the past year. We're overstaking a bunch of Vic clubs in that regard. Hard to ignore us now.

 

[BangyBangy]

Just got home from a few days in Sydney, so I only just got a chance to see the replay this morning.

I still enjoy travelling on the Big Grey Bird.

Reading a couple of the comments here I thought Dev must have had a howler.

Had a couple of turnovers. But Gee, there’s a lot he gets right too you know.

His attack on the ball is as good as anyone. Love his contested ball work. Wins more than his fair share. Works hard both ways. Strong overhead for his size. Kicked a goal. Thought he did ok without being brilliant.

C-130? Or just planes in general?

 

[martinson]

His set shots are much improved. It isn't always easy to kick goals on the run or from around the corner. Not everyone can be as efficient as Bailey and Cameron.

It's obvious we've put in a lot of work with set shots the last couple of years and most of our goalscorers have efficient no fuss actions.

The only ones that give me heart palpitations are Daniher who still tries to kick it too hard , Charlie when he decides to use an AFL game for banana practice, and Zorks who would be better off taking a longer run up and pretend someone was chasing him.

 

[Berrygood]

From my perspective I'm fine with everything he said .He wants to win an AFL flag . Everyone has their reasons. His is valid.

I think it's drawing a long bow to imply he's disloyal. We won't give him another contract if he doesn't shape up. It can't have been that easy to come out here again after what happened to him during covid. All I take from it is that he's extremely motivated.

I never said he was disloyal, didn't mean to imply that either. And I don't doubt he's not motivated. I just had questions about that motivation. That's all.

 

[martinson]

I get your point Berrygood but he's just done what most players would do . No one can mindread motivation. It probably changes as they get into the year as well.

 

[BRAB]

I feel like McCluggage's goal kicking was actually better last year but maybe I imagined it.

 

[Section 5]

Poor Hugh, when you look at the stats from last year, he is close to the best goalkicking midfielder in the AFL.
In the chart below i requested midfielders and in disposal order. A reasonable guide to use
A few others that did not make the list you may be wondering about
Chad Warner

1

Chad Warner

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.0

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.5

3star

CL

0.0

1star

D

7.0

1star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.5

2star

CL

0.0

1star

D

7.0

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.5

4star

CL

0.0

1star

going into his 4th year as a Swan could be the player to watch in 2023

Bontenpelli 24:21
Dangerfield 8:12
Cripps .......20:9
Dunkley..... 18:11
Warner .....20:24
Z Merrett.... 6:6
J Kelly .......9:9
Coniglio ....17.11
Viney ........8:3
Boak .......10:10

Rank	Player	2022 Goals & Behinds	Games	Disposals for Last Game	Total
1​	Clayton Oliver​	5:8 (5 goals 8 behinds)​	23​	21 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	753​
2​	Lachie Neale​	11:8​	25​	20 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	749​
3​	Jackson Macrae​	4:4​	23​	34 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	705​
4​	Andrew Brayshaw​	12:12​	24​	32 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	704​
5​	Christian Petracca​	19:31​	24​	27 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	673​
6​	Rory Laird​	7:8​	20​	26 v Port Adelaide, Round 23​	659​
8​	Will Brodie​	6:7​	24​	17 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	643​
9​	Sam Walsh​	5:7​	20​	27 v Melbourne, Round 22​	642​
10​	Touk Miller​	8:11​	22​	25 v North Melbourne, Round 23​	626​
12​	Cameron Guthrie​	12:12​	25​	16 v Sydney, Grand Final​	613​
14​	Luke Parker​	14:10​	25​	23 v Geelong, Grand Final​	611​
15​	Callum Mills​	10:3​	25​	13 v Geelong, Grand Final​	610​
18​	Oliver Wines​	6:11​	21​	35 v Adelaide, Round 23​	596​
19​	Jack Crisp​	12:8​	25​	29 v Sydney, Preliminary Finals​	595​
19​	Adam Treloar​	15:12​	22​	26 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	595​
21​	Hugh McCluggage​	20:18​	24​	17 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	592​

 

[briztoon]

Poor Hugh, when you look at the stats from last year, he is close to the best goalkicking midfielder in the AFL.
In the chart below i requested midfielders and in disposal order. A reasonable guide to use
A few others that did not make the list you may be wondering about
Chad Warner going into his 4th year as a Swan could be the player to watch in 2023

Bontenpelli 24:21
Dangerfield 8:12
Cripps .......20:9
Dunkley..... 18:11
Warner .....20:24
Z Merrett.... 6:6
J Kelly .......9:9
Coniglio ....17.11
Viney ........8:3
Boak .......10:10

Rank	Player	2022 Goals & Behinds	Games	Disposals for Last Game	Total
1​	Clayton Oliver​	5:8 (5 goals 8 behinds)​	23​	21 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	753​
2​	Lachie Neale​	11:8​	25​	20 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	749​
3​	Jackson Macrae​	4:4​	23​	34 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	705​
4​	Andrew Brayshaw​	12:12​	24​	32 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	704​
5​	Christian Petracca​	19:31​	24​	27 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	673​
6​	Rory Laird​	7:8​	20​	26 v Port Adelaide, Round 23​	659​
8​	Will Brodie​	6:7​	24​	17 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	643​
9​	Sam Walsh​	5:7​	20​	27 v Melbourne, Round 22​	642​
10​	Touk Miller​	8:11​	22​	25 v North Melbourne, Round 23​	626​
12​	Cameron Guthrie​	12:12​	25​	16 v Sydney, Grand Final​	613​
14​	Luke Parker​	14:10​	25​	23 v Geelong, Grand Final​	611​
15​	Callum Mills​	10:3​	25​	13 v Geelong, Grand Final​	610​
18​	Oliver Wines​	6:11​	21​	35 v Adelaide, Round 23​	596​
19​	Jack Crisp​	12:8​	25​	29 v Sydney, Preliminary Finals​	595​
19​	Adam Treloar​	15:12​	22​	26 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	595​
21​	Hugh McCluggage​	20:18​	24​	17 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	592​

Believe you may be missing the main point I tried making.

Hugh’s first action when he is in position to have a shot on goal is to look for another option.

On Thursday night he had two clear shots on goal that he passed up. He wasn’t under pressure either time, and had the room and time to steady himself before taking a shot.

I don’t remember whether he hit a target closer to goal either time, but if he misses a target, there’s every possibility the opposition can rebound the ball.

If he takes the shot, generally there’s only 3 likely outcomes; out on the full, a behind, or a goal. I’m deliberately leaving out the ball doesn’t make the distance and is turned over, as that’s an unlikely possibility if Hugh is in range.

 

[ItsRaynerGoals]

I was particularly impressed with Devs defensive running on Thursday night, there were a few times he got back to impact a Cats inside50.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Hughie's disposal is elite in my opinion although he does miss in front of goals more than he should but that's mainly set shots rather than on the run. In most cases you would back him running in from the 50 meter line. ALL players are taught to look at all options even if they are confident of kicking truely.....Hughie is no exception and thats got nothing to do with confidence in his shots at goal.

 

[M Malice]

If you want some light relief the Port board is a good laugh, a lot of posters writing off their season... Lions will flog us in round 1.... calling for Hinkley's head, gee I hope we destroy them.

 

[On the quiet]

I think Answerth is best 22. His kicking may be a bit skew whiff, but he's got the mongrel about him that I think we need.

I thought he was unfairly maligned by many on here for some of his performances last year. To be able to come back and play every game after having OP is a massive achievement. As for who he would displace from the team, I honestly wouldn't have a clue. Everyone who played on Friday played pretty so there'd be some very unlucky players.

Don't disagree, but I don't think Answerth plays when we are playing a taller forward line, both Melbourne and especially the Dogs had a stack of talls playing yesterday. I actually think we might have to play two rucks against Port, Melbourne and Dogs (all first three weeks), especially if Gardiner is not back and I don't think he will be for the early rounds.

 

[Kwickhatch]

If you want some light relief the Port board is a good laugh, a lot of posters writing off their season... Lions will flog us in round 1.... calling for Hinkley's head, gee I hope we destroy them.

You should read the Richmond board. Having four umps is clearly bias against the tigers hahaha

Hardwick himself has stated they push the boundaries and try to get away with as much niggle and agro as they can... But all their fans are then surprised they give away the most free kicks?

 

[twhowler]

Don't disagree, but I don't think Answerth plays when we are playing a taller forward line, both Melbourne and especially the Dogs had a stack of talls playing yesterday. I actually think we might have to play two rucks against Port, Melbourne and Dogs (all first three weeks), especially if Gardiner is not back and I don't think he will be for the early rounds.

Not sure re Port without Finlayson, but the other 2 are looking ominous. Melbourne with a permanent resting ruckman in Gawn / Grundy, plus McDonald and Brown. Fritsch plays tallish. Tbf it’s the same we faced previously against them before McDonald’s injury.

The dogs look like going for an NBA style forward line. Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, JUH. Too tall? Maybe. I remember Matthews loading up on talls in 2001 v Blues and we were flogged, but the talls we put in were pretty ordinary.

Right now i’d imagine Payne on Naughton, Harris on Lobb, then it gets hard. Gardiner if back on Darcy? Rayner on JUH? Or if no Gardiner probably has to be Joyce.

But given Joyce is no star maybe we are playing in to their hands playing him. Do we back in our regular backline and our midfield pressure and make the dogs look too tall?

Will be interesting to see our approach…

 

[Dalions]

Not sure re Port without Finlayson, but the other 2 are looking ominous. Melbourne with a permanent resting ruckman in Gawn / Grundy, plus McDonald and Brown. Fritsch plays tallish. Tbf it’s the same we faced previously against them before McDonald’s injury.

The dogs look like going for an NBA style forward line. Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, JUH. Too tall? Maybe. I remember Matthews loading up on talls in 2001 v Blues and we were flogged, but the talls we put in were pretty ordinary.

Right now i’d imagine Payne on Naughton, Harris on Lobb, then it gets hard. Gardiner if back on Darcy? Rayner on JUH? Or if no Gardiner probably has to be Joyce.

But given Joyce is no star maybe we are playing in to their hands playing him. Do we back in our regular backline and our midfield pressure and make the dogs look too tall?

Will be interesting to see our approach…

You would have to think that if the ball hits the ground in their forward line they will struggle to keep it in there and the ball will bounce out pretty easy you would think so it is a massive gamble.
And if their midfield isn’t as dominant as it has been previously then you would imagine it will be pretty dirty ball on most occasions.

 

[Quested]

I think the key will be to stifle their delivery inside 50 and try to make their i50s at least to difficult positions. I think our mids will be super important in those games to ensure no easy, high entries.

Not sure re Port without Finlayson, but the other 2 are looking ominous. Melbourne with a permanent resting ruckman in Gawn / Grundy, plus McDonald and Brown. Fritsch plays tallish. Tbf it’s the same we faced previously against them before McDonald’s injury.

The dogs look like going for an NBA style forward line. Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, JUH. Too tall? Maybe. I remember Matthews loading up on talls in 2001 v Blues and we were flogged, but the talls we put in were pretty ordinary.

Right now i’d imagine Payne on Naughton, Harris on Lobb, then it gets hard. Gardiner if back on Darcy? Rayner on JUH? Or if no Gardiner probably has to be Joyce.

But given Joyce is no star maybe we are playing in to their hands playing him. Do we back in our regular backline and our midfield pressure and make the dogs look too tall?

Will be interesting to see our approach…

 

[martinson]

Poor Hugh, when you look at the stats from last year, he is close to the best goalkicking midfielder in the AFL.
In the chart below i requested midfielders and in disposal order. A reasonable guide to use
A few others that did not make the list you may be wondering about
Chad Warner going into his 4th year as a Swan could be the player to watch in 2023

Bontenpelli 24:21
Dangerfield 8:12
Cripps .......20:9
Dunkley..... 18:11
Warner .....20:24
Z Merrett.... 6:6
J Kelly .......9:9
Coniglio ....17.11
Viney ........8:3
Boak .......10:10

Rank	Player	2022 Goals & Behinds	Games	Disposals for Last Game	Total
1​	Clayton Oliver​	5:8 (5 goals 8 behinds)​	23​	21 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	753​
2​	Lachie Neale​	11:8​	25​	20 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	749​
3​	Jackson Macrae​	4:4​	23​	34 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	705​
4​	Andrew Brayshaw​	12:12​	24​	32 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	704​
5​	Christian Petracca​	19:31​	24​	27 v Brisbane, Semi Final​	673​
6​	Rory Laird​	7:8​	20​	26 v Port Adelaide, Round 23​	659​
8​	Will Brodie​	6:7​	24​	17 v Collingwood, Semi Final​	643​
9​	Sam Walsh​	5:7​	20​	27 v Melbourne, Round 22​	642​
10​	Touk Miller​	8:11​	22​	25 v North Melbourne, Round 23​	626​
12​	Cameron Guthrie​	12:12​	25​	16 v Sydney, Grand Final​	613​
14​	Luke Parker​	14:10​	25​	23 v Geelong, Grand Final​	611​
15​	Callum Mills​	10:3​	25​	13 v Geelong, Grand Final​	610​
18​	Oliver Wines​	6:11​	21​	35 v Adelaide, Round 23​	596​
19​	Jack Crisp​	12:8​	25​	29 v Sydney, Preliminary Finals​	595​
19​	Adam Treloar​	15:12​	22​	26 v Fremantle, Elimination Final​	595​
21​	Hugh McCluggage​	20:18​	24​	17 v Geelong, Preliminary Finals​	59​

I think the key will be to stifle their delivery inside 50 and try to make their i50s at least to difficult positions. I think our mids will be super important in those games to ensure no easy, high entries.

Good players can overcome height ,weight ,physical deficiencies . It's been shown time and again for as long as I can remember.

I'd rather play someone who's not the right fit but at least is going to give whatever the situation is a crack and cause damage when he gets it ,than someone who's just there because he's physically suited. Especially if you have a good team with players who put in and know how to cover for you when you're up against it.

 

[POBT]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

 

[martinson]

When Brisbane had the 3 talls in our golden era you're talking 2 absolute champions who were the best player in the comp at certain points in their career and one who was exceptionally good. So of course it was going to work.

If the Dogs and Melbourne want to go really tall ,let them do it. I'm not at all convinced it'll work well against the better teams.

 

[Dalions]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

Great post, and the time you have put in for the post. Hard to disagree with most of it.
Personally I have Fort soooo much closer to Oscar than you do.
He is a better lead, mark and better kick for goal when resting forward, just as good as Oscar around the ground and not too much different between the 2 when in the ruck, I pretty much have him ahead of Oscar.
I wish Oscar could jump a little when trying to mark the ball up forward, if he did he would mark so many more balls or get more free kicks.

 

[Viceregal]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

Thank you for the time and effort you put into doing this list.

I remember looking at the depth in other teams' lists back in the day when we had trouble finding 22 AFL quality ready bodies to field a team some weeks with a certain amount of envy/wishing we were in a place like that ... well it is nice to be there now.

I wonder how many weeks in it will be before the Lid Off thread makes a comeback?

 

[martinson]

Great post, and the time you have put in for the post. Hard to disagree with most of it.
Personally I have Fort soooo much closer to Oscar than you do.
He is a better lead, mark and better kick for goal when resting forward, just as good as Oscar around the ground and not too much different between the 2 when in the ruck, I pretty much have him ahead of Oscar.
I wish Oscar could jump a little when trying to mark the ball up forward, if he did he would mark so many more balls or get more free kicks.

I've watched a few games from last year and reflected on it a bit and to me Fort is perennially underrated. Has always done the job when asked. Fairly good at most facets of the game for someone playing his role. I love Oscar but Fort's currently better imo.

 

[Berrygood]

Most important 2023.

• must have debuted (first time exception to this rule this year!)
• not long term injured
• importance not purely quality/performance - takes into account criticality of role in game plan, replaceability, leadership etc

1. Harris Andrews - Irreplaceable. His role as co-captain makes him even more integral but the reality is that we have only one elite tall defender in the squad.
2. Lachie Neale - I think he’s a top 5 player in the comp and so he has to be among our most important players. We’ve now got plenty of talent to supplement him in the midfield but he’s still our best player.
3. Hugh McCluggage - This selection is a little on spec but I think we’re about to see something special. He’s probably our best player when the ball is loose and his skill by foot stands out in a midfield without other truly exceptional kicks.
4. Charlie Cameron - I don’t think forward pockets, as a rule, should be too highly considered in terms of importance. But I’ll make an exception for Charlie who added versatility and defensive effort to his game last year and should have been an All Australian.
5. Brandon Starcevich - It is looking like we’re going to need Starce to play 3 or 4 roles over the season, with the loss of Adams, injury cloud over Gardiner and the potential that Answerth is not best 22. He’ll need to play tall some weeks, tight on a small other weeks and then intercept as well. Critical.
6. Oscar Mcinerney - has been higher on this list in previous years but I’m comfortable with Fort as a backup and then we’ll see a couple of young guys start to emerge. Still our number 1 ruck though.
7. Josh Dunkley - my pick to win the Best and Fairest and arguably a little low on this list. I just think he’s the third banana in our midfield which is incredible to think about.
8. Joe Daniher - if he plays like he did in rounds 1-6, he’s probably top 5 on this list. As it is, I think we have an even spread of talent across our tall forwards, which makes each of them a little more replaceable.
9. Jack Payne - a bit on spec but there’s a lot to like and, like Andrews, not much behind him. If Adams were fit, he’d be this high so happy to have Payne as a direct replacement.
10. Jarrod Berry - the best version of Bez on a wing is integral to our fortunes. Bit of a worry if he’s banged up but he’s clearly our best option on a wing with a bit of uncertainty about the other options.
11. Keidean Coleman - we’ve got a few options down back but a season of peak Kiddy probably takes us to another level as a side. Thought about him as top 5!
12. Eric Hipwood - could easily be top 10 but the same logic as Joe applies - the three tall forwards will hopefully spread the burden among them.
13. Jack Gunston - see above. What a pick up!
14. Will Ashcroft - breaking my own rules here - first time I have ever put a newly drafted player on this list but he’s also the first time we’ve had a draftee who is so obviously going to be an important factor in the best 18 of a premiership challenging side.
15. Zac Bailey - a little harsh to be this low but we have a large number of guys who can play a similar role. Probably in our top 10 best players but is he a little more replaceable than others?
16. Darcy Gardiner - he’d be higher given our tall defensive stocks are light on but I’m not sure we can rely on his body to hold up.
17. Cam Rayner - could easily be top 5 by the end of the year but I probably need to see him taking a couple more steps. Unsure what his role this year will be and, as Ah Chee has shown, versatility can be both a blessing and a curse.
18. Dayne Zorko - fully fit and firing, he’ll be a lot higher. Just need to see it. Defensively, he’s still one of our best.
19. Linc McCarthy - seems to be always underrated, including on this list. I just think others are more integral in similar roles.
20. Daniel Rich - has been almost a lock as a top 5/10 but as his career winds down, we look like having other options. Still best 22.
21. Dev Robertson - I’m a fan and so I’m unashamed in putting him above the next few. The fact that he can play midfield minutes, as well as wing and half forward, is in his favour.
22. Cal Ah Chee - I think we play better with him in the side. I have doubts about our wing stocks and he seems to be a reliable option as the second/third winger in the best 22.
23. Darcy Wilmot - love him as a rebounding defender, want to see more of him as a winger to be sure. Could easily be in the top dozen if he finds his feet on a wing because we have a gap there right now.
24. Conor McKenna- not sure I’m sold on him as our best option down back just yet but I think he’s finding his feet.
25. Ryan Lester - not best 22 but I think he could have an important role to play as an insurance policy.
26. Darcy Fort - proving himself to be a little bit better than just a ruck back up. Unlike others, I don’t have him close to pushing Oscar out of the main role but he’s a good solid type.
27. Noah Answerth - others have seemingly gone past him in defence but I wonder if we’ll miss his shutdown role. Hard to judge where he’s at right now but he’s been a best 22 lock whenever fit before so hard to keep him too far out of the best 22.
28. Jarryd Lyons - if he’s not starting in the centre square for us, I don’t really see a role for him. He might come into senior consideration if our clearance game doesn’t fire. Underrated with his tackling at stoppages too, which is a bit of a weakness for a few of our mids.
29. Jaxon Prior - I wouldn’t be upset if he plays round 1. We have a lot of wing options but perhaps his experience, game sense and maturity has him in front of a couple. Can’t help thinking more talented types might go past him eventually though.
30. James Tunstill - must be close to a round 1 spot and yet I honestly can’t get him higher than this on the list. I think he’s super-promising - if we didn’t have blokes called Neale, McCluggage and Ashcroft, I’d say he was close to having the cleanest hands at the club.
31. Kai Lohmann - talent gets him higher than would otherwise be the case, given he plays a role that we’re stacked in.
32. James Madden - the signing of another Irishmen with better exposed form is a bit of a worry. Not writing him off but he needs to go to another level.
33. Tom Fullarton - ruck, forward, defence - he gives us something of an option as a backup. Jury is still out on him.
34. Darragh Joyce - other than his size, I don’t know that he’s shown all that much so far to suggest he’s going to be a factor, other than through injuries to our best defenders. Happy to wait and see.
35. Rhys Mathieson - probably needs a midfield crisis to play seniors but can’t knock his attitude or effort.
36. Carter Michael - I liked him last year but needs time in the reserves to come back anywhere near senior contention.
37. Harry Sharpe - I have him a fair way down the list of possible wingers but he does bring a fairly unique attribute with his running capacity.
38. Nakia Cockatoo - Maybe if we need a big body bouncing around the forward line but I just doubt his capacity to run to the required standard. He’s a half forward and the game demands more aerobic capacity from that role than it once did.

Reading the Vfl wrap of the trial game v Southport, Answerth, Joyce and Lyons had better than good games. No mention of Lyons mobility around the park but as effective as ever in the middle. Good signs, will keep those ahead of them on their toes.

 

[Berrygood]

I've watched a few games from last year and reflected on it a bit and to me Fort is perennially underrated. Has always done the job when asked. Fairly good at most facets of the game for someone playing his role. I love Oscar but Fort's currently better imo.

I love Oscar too, he's that big bashful country lad you'd want as a mate. So glad we got Fort last year, he was certainly the back up we needed. I do think we underestimate both actually. Fort for the reasons you mentioned and I think we underrate Oscars fwd work and goal kicking ability. I think he's been pretty reliable over the years and has kicked some clutch goals when needed. Can clunk a mark or bring the ball to ground for the smalls.

We may not have a Gawn/Grundy ruck combo but I'll take these two. If we underestimate them I'm hoping opposition does too.

As to who's better at the moment I can only go by what I read. Fort does seem to have the edge but I think Big O will carry the no1 ruckman role into the start of the season. He will have to work hard to keep it tho.

 

[Milux]

Wilmot is a player.

Plays Round One thank you.

If it's at the expense of Rich or even Rayner, then so be it.

It hurts. But I tend to agree. For me the person missing would be Rayner. Although Rich didn't look his best the other night. Maybe he was just going through the motions of a pre season game.

What an absolute nightmare of a job Match selection have. We have around 30 capable Afl players to choose from.