Autopsy 2023 Rd 10 Blues lose game in first quarter

[Coona Blues]

Sacking Voss isn't the answer...
Back him in with some successful assistants, that have been part of successful coaching sides...

Be brave with the list management and move on some big names for better players of need...

Nup. Vossy could survive with some quality assistants, but the good ones aren’t coming for lesser roles.

Move on big names? McGovern, yes, but is he a big name. Our other big names have contracts.

Reckon Williamstown’s coach Justin Plapp would be an unheralded quality assistant. They don’t need big reputations to coach. His team was dramatically better drilled than our boys, and his two interviews through the game were impressive.

If we were to sack Vossy, who the hell is on the market?

 

[ajb72]

Could do with some thrown chairs at half time


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[Manhattanite]

Sacking Voss isn't the answer...
Back him in with some successful assistants, that have been part of successful coaching sides...

Be brave with the list management and move on some big names for better players of need...

It may become easier to bring in a top assistant at the end of the season who will see themselves as a real shot at becoming interim coach in 2024 if things continue to head south - but if they are able to help turn things around they get a lot of the credit too and become a top choice for the next head coach role at another club




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[Jimmyonesix]

That might be true, but what did collingwood do? They sacked Buckley, threw caution to the wind and got an unproven Coach. They embraced flair and lair, they brought back the joy of playing the world's best football code.

I tend to agree Carlton players seem to have a fear of breaking teams rules, it looks stilted and complicated (too complicated for some. Lewy Young?) It's beginning to look like the Bolton and Teague days where self preservation and getting a game next week trumps working for the team.

What would I do? Without knowlege of what happens inside the four walls it is hard to know what to do to turn attitudes around, but I would radically (?) change the personell, encourage risk taking and dash, making this the team rule to which the players must adhere. Play whatever is available in the 2's. Binns, etc. Even Dow (who I don't rate, but make sure he knows this is make or break time). It is obvious we have players on the fringes who have talent, players like Will Setterfield who has been a revelation since joining *. It's not life boats on the Titanic time, it is attitude re-adjustment time.

I'm a huge fan of Jack S, but maybe he need a rest, same as Durdin. McGovern can go play tiddly winks for Sth Freemantle. I don't rate TDK, I don't think he exhibits the atributes of a genuine First ruck, but what was shown today is that the 2 ruck setup is a requirement. The idiocy of Jack up against a genuine first ruck went a long way to gifting them their winning lead.

Ed C is a hero and a warrior. Respect the eff out of him, but he is now becoming a liability. Thanks for your service Ed.

If Kemp is fit, bring him in and play him forward, 3rd tall and target him. Martin and Cunners when fit, must play or be shown the door.

Run at the defence and make the f50 entries from 20-25 mts closer to goal. This gives option for a short kick to a small within range, makes us less predictably C and H focussed. Even skid the thing in low and hard along the ground if need be, and faced with another Moore situation. Do something different. Rule 1. DO NOT KICK IT DIRECTLY TO THE OPPOSITIONS BEST DEFENDER!

Is it cattle? A little, we are slow and lack confidence in skills, which is a spiraliing situation. Lack confidence, miss the kick, lower the confidence, rinse and repeat.

Is it system? Looks like it to me. No cohesion, no buy in. Confusion.

Is it admin/management/board? Very likely. Matheson et al will no doubt have their sticky fingers meddling.

But

I think it can be turned around, and back to reasonable, if not Premiership quality fairly quickly. We just need to stop trying to disprove Einsteins definition of insanity.

Stop comparisons with what collingwood did -- all their leadership had played multiple finals were a kick short of a grand final there youth bar daicos had 3 years plus in the system .
They still had one of the best organised defensive systems in the comp-- yea Buckley had grown old but they scored heavy under him with a small makeshift fwd line also ..

Our list and shortcomings are nowhere near comparable to pies 2021 was an outlier for them -- 2021 was normal carlton

 

[BlueBayou]

We are a sad club.

In my lifetime we have finished top 4 once. ******* ONCE. For reference, I've been legally drinking beers for 7 years now.

I'll always support this club but I've pretty much given up hope that we'll make a granny in my young adulthood, let alone win one.

Just sad.

I feel for your generation. My son will turn 29 tomorrow and he was alive but an infant, for the 95 triumph. Since then I have inflicted him with a love of the Baggers, but he has no compunction in telling me it is wavering, fading, will eventually dissapear. It must have been the same for Fitzroy, who coming up to the WWII era was as succesful as any other team. They played in only a couple of finals post war. Assasinated by the AFL after that.

Carlton is not Fitzroy, we have way too much support and money to be in that position, but both wane with lack of success.

 

[BlueBayou]

So was John Barker as an assistant coach
.
Their records with their respective positions aren't at all glowing to match the reputation.

May be the type that speaks internally very well but the results don't match

may be wick, may be.

I think we are all clutching at straws, ATM.

Its a bit like a 'whodunnit' murder mystery, with a bit of quatnum physics mixed in.

 

[BM123]

Yep. No point stuffing around with the players to protect their "feelings". In the end he is the one that will be out of a job. His dream of being an afl coach over.

Those entitled dopes will continue to earn well achieving absolutely nothing long after he is gone. Voss needs to take to take control while he still can. If it doesn't work at least he will fail as him not trying to be somebody he's not.

Honestly it sounds counter intuitive but when you are dealing with any fear/anxiety it's often better to use the fear of something else to help you overcome it.

Maybe our players would perform better if they were more worried about Voss than the opposition.

Unfortunately they certainly can't fear him if they know he'll be gone well before anyone else at the club holds them accountable though.

 

[marcmurphy3]

Our acquisitions in the preseason of Hamill and Clarke were very poor choices. Neither had good raps.

Sayers insisted we not make a decision on Teague until the end of the season even though it was obvious he was gone weeks before. Then we followed a decent length process to hire "Voss".

By the time that was done pretty much every decent assistant was under contract for 2022. We actually lucked out to get Hansen. The Dogs let him out of his contract because they knew it would benefit his senior coaching aspirations getting experience at another club.

Was always going to be hard getting gun assistants in those curcumstances. That said, we also chose to not make any changes at the end of last season.

 

[Wickzki]

I feel for your generation. My son will turn 29 tomorrow and he was alive but an infant, for the 95 triumph. Since then I have inflicted him with a love of the Baggers, but he has no compunction in telling me it is wavering, fading, will eventually dissapear. It must have been the same for Fitzroy, who coming up to the WWII era was as succesful as any other team. They played in only a couple of finals post war. Assasinated by the AFL after that.

Carlton is not Fitzroy, we have way too much support and money to be in that position, but both wane with lack of success.

Good comparison but I feel like we've become Aston Villa. A once giant with a proud history (they're still among the leaders in top flight premierships before the big money era changed the PL forever) but reduced to struggling for mediocrity for decades now.

 

[bigblueboy]

Thanks mate so in essence offense looks poor as we are not defending hard enough across the ground, creating turnovers and quick, easy forward entries ? Rather transitioning fwd always under pressure hence entries are rushed and poor? Kinda makes sense...

so next question is the poor defense across the ground a result of our zone and how we set up or more player effort and mind set ? or perhaps not following / don't understand instructions...surely it couldn't be too difficult to understand yes?

Bit of column A and bit of column B in my view.
Worth watching First Crack tonight … seeing the difference in our midfield transition to that of Collingwood. One team working for one another and the other team working for themselves.

 

[BlueBayou]

Honestly it sounds counter intuitive but when you are dealing with any fear/anxiety it's often better to use the fear of something else to help you overcome it.

Maybe our players would perform better if they were more worried about Voss than the opposition.

Unfortunately they certainly can't fear him if they know he'll be gone well before anyone else at the club holds them accountable though.

yep. This is the way it was for the first hundred or so years.

Now we have marquee players with much higher drawing power than their mentors and coaches, and administrators who have signed the players and are invested in them getting a game.

I reckon Coaches are now more worried about buy in from their key players than ever in history.

 

[BM123]

Sayers insisted we not make a decision on Teague until the end of the season even though it was obvious he was gone weeks before. Then we followed a decent length process to hire "Voss".

By the time that was done pretty much every decent assistant was under contract for 2022. We actually lucked out to get Hansen. The Dogs let him out of his contract because they knew it would benefit his senior coaching aspirations getting experience at another club.

Was always going to be hard getting gun assistants in those curcumstances. That said, we also chose to not make any changes at the end of last season.

It has to be one of the oldest cliches in footy right?

If you aren't improving, you are going backwards. Like the club just expected finals were inevitable.

 

[RAPPA]

Nup. Vossy could survive with some quality assistants, but the good ones aren’t coming for lesser roles.

Move on big names? McGovern, yes, but is he a big name. Our other big names have contracts.

Reckon Williamstown’s coach Justin Plapp would be an unheralded quality assistant. They don’t need big reputations to coach. His team was dramatically better drilled than our boys, and his two interviews through the game were impressive.

If we were to sack Vossy, who the hell is on the market?

Coaches that are recently goneski and are currently out of the coaching system - Leon Cameron, Nathan Buckley and David Noble.

Dew might get the chop so he’d be on the market:

Hinkley is well entrenched at Port but there’s every chance they part ways if Port doesn’t go deep into September.

Of those, Noble is off the table and I can’t see Hinkley or bucks being lured, let alone for a role that isn’t head coach. Dew would prob take a senior assistant gig, and not sure on Cameron.

Not saying Voss should be sacked but there isn’t much going around

 

[BlueBayou]

Good comparison but I feel like we've become Aston Villa. A once giant with a proud history (they're still among the leaders in top flight premierships before the big money era changed the PL forever) but reduced to struggling for mediocrity for decades now.

I have no knowledge of Aston Villa, or the EPL (which I find to be the most overhyped code in the world) but thanks for the nod. Mediocrity is EXACTLY the problem.

Maybe make Sellers and Nails and Dom be in charge of training? Train hard, play hard, celebrate hard.

 

[Rustica]

A post on reddit made me search the last time we beat Collingwood at home.

Round 3 2012

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

We are a sad club.

In my lifetime we have finished top 4 once. ******* ONCE. For reference, I've been legally drinking beers for 7 years now.

I'll always support this club but I've pretty much given up hope that we'll make a granny in my young adulthood, let alone win one.

Just sad.

I was two in 95 so its not within my memory. So for some more perspective on what young fans are looking at....

Since 2000. Top 4 finishes:
Geelong 14
Sydney 9
Collingwood 8
Hawthorn 8
Brisbane 7
Port 7
West Coast 7
Richmond 5
Adelaide 5
St Kilda 5
Fremantle 4
Bulldogs 3
Gws 2
Melbourne 2
Essendon
North Melbourne

Carlton 0
Gold coast 0


Not even once.

 

[Blue By Blood]

Coaches that are recently goneski and are currently out of the coaching system - Leon Cameron, Nathan Buckley and David Noble.

Dew might get the chop so he’d be on the market:

Hinkley is well entrenched at Port but there’s every chance they part ways if Port doesn’t go deep into September.

Of those, Noble is off the table and I can’t see Hinkley or bucks being lured, let alone for a role that isn’t head coach. Dew would prob take a senior assistant gig, and not sure on Cameron.

Not saying Voss should be sacked but there isn’t much going around

I’d drop Don Pyke’s name top of the list if we decide to move on Voss.

 

[passmark]

I’d drop Don Pyke’s name top of the list if we decide to move on Voss.

And he’d be gone in two years

 

[Benaly28]

Hardwick if we have the chance.


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[dragonsblues]

I have concerns with Voss but we just can’t change the coach again. We need to hack him in, surround him with as many quality assistants, football department resources etc that we can find.

Carlton is where careers go to die and we’ve sacked too many coaches over the past 5 years. The last thing this club needs is more instability.

 

[passmark]

Hardwick if we have the chance.


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He’d be gone in 3

 

[carlton_99]

Not many positives from today but thought Boyd was bright spark in his return. Hope he gets a good run at it.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Hardwick if we have the chance.


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Oh hell no.

Pagan and Malthouse all over again.

Geelong have not sacked a coach since John Devine in 1988.

Maybe it's time we took a leaf out of their book..

It's arguable that all this chopping and changing of senior coaches in the last 20 years has contributed significantly in our poor, mediocre culture and lack of any meaningful and stability amongst our playing group.

If for whatever reason Voss is let go at some point during or after this season (hopefully not) I would prefer to promote from within, Ash Hansen is a future coach in training, highly regarded around the league and knows our players strengths and weakness pretty well by now.

But my strong preference is for Voss to stay on at least for another season..

 

[BlueBayou]

Point out a year where we were accountable defensively in the modern era?

Last year we were constantly letting sides get the most of their momentum and it finally killed us in the last round. At least people bought into all the flashy run ons we had even though we always let sides back in too.

All that freedom to play but I've never seen a Carlton side ever play proper team defense like Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond did at their best. Hell our forward line applying pressure for...half a season at best is a re-occuring theme for ages regardless of coach too. At the moment we need to sack the forward line coach and go hard for some proper smalls and medium forwards. Hoping Motlop and co suddenly turn into stars this early on is getting us nowhere especially with how crap our delivery is in general. Why are they never front and centre? Are we going to give our forward coach a million years or so again like Barker had for sfa reward for us.

Weitering may have his reasons but he is one of many among our leaders who aren't earning their pay. I'm not going to single out Voss for Carlton fielding another weak leadership group. Mcgovern has been soft as it gets and he is earning 750k supposedly.

I'd hate us to give these players another out again for failing to perform. That's the only thing we've seemed to achieve by sacking coaches before. What exactly are these paid professionals responsible for if they can't kick or tackle?

I'm not a Voss fan boy but I don't have the faith in Carlton to pick a better coach. Apart from the classic surge from a new coach that lasts for awhile I have no faith in our players to suddenly perform when it matters under a different one either. God forbid we back in a coach for once like we back in the players for once. I hope Carlton get him the best assistants possible and go from there. I'm over this club looking for the next messiah.

I tend to agree with most of this, and fully agree that sacking the Coach is the worst possible outcome. Re-sign him if anything, history has proved that player power over the coach is a large part of the problem. Malthouse lost the players, as did Bolts and Teague. Making the coach a constant makes the players re-adjust their attitude.

Yabby Jeans coached the Hawks for decades, as did Sheedy at *, as did Jock McHale with the filth, as did Norm Smith with the Fuscias

The coach is the fulcrum of the club, the balance between the players and the admin/supporters. Of those mentioed only the Red Fox had immediate success, based on an influx of generational players bought by Melbourne FC money. McHale had Johm Wren to bribe or otherwise 'persuade' opposition players not to be at their best. Those days are long gone.

If we believe in Voss he must be given 'two terms' ie 4+ plus years to lay out and execute his plans.

 

[Korn]

Not many positives from today but thought Boyd was bright spark in his return. Hope he gets a good run at it.

We really need to kick more like that - kick it right in front of our team mate instead of kicking it high in the air.