List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

[martinson]

I suspect with Rayner we are so far down the excuse loop, we are going to be making them for the next six years of his career unless something fundamental changes.

As for Berry, surely well liked and respected doesn’t mean you are immune from being traded. It’s not like clubs only trade the unpopular players.

I'm officially over Rayner . No care factor kicking it to 3 on 1's with 40 seconds on the clock. A bit bemused at how he doesn't know better by now .There's zero hope of us trading him so what we need to do is get him right up to speed . Crucial pre season coming up , maybe he needs a minder.

Bez has shown he can play games where he actually gets in the votes . We were crying out for someone like him in the centre clearances yesterday. I haven't given up hope we can get him doing that. He's done it before.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dev is gone. Just a feeling.

Heard the comments from some on the field that the Pies had 3 gameplans and knew where players would be when they kicked into space whereas we had the one which we retreated from at times and went back to the old down the line.

Just rewatching the game we did an awesome job to be within a kick in our forward half with a minute on the clock considering all the junk time goals we coughed up. It was a great effort by the team to get so close.

Another thing that hurt us was the umps throwing it up ,they seemed to get clear advantage out of that nearly every time.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Dodongo has connections on this one. If there is any time to trust Dodongo it's now.

Are you going to disappear again or do a Clark Keating next September?

 

[JasRulz63]

Dodongo has connections on this one. If there is any time to trust Dodongo it's now.

From memory Dodongo has one nut left to bet after losing one years ago.

 

[Gadzorks]

Dayne Zorko, properly managed, will still be a weapon next September.

That would be wonderful, but it's also possible he could be the next Rich.

12 months as you approach the edge is a long time in elite sports.

I'm all for keeping him, but staying best 22 will be a week to week proposition based on the others fighting for his spot and his performance. No room for fairytales unfortunately

 

[martinson]

That would be wonderful, but it's also possible he could be the next Rich.

12 months as you approach the edge is a long time in elite sports.

I'm all for keeping him, but staying best 22 will be a week to week proposition based on the others fighting for his spot and his performance. No room for fairytales unfortunately

I think I've been his biggest supporter on here but it's time to move on.

We might get him up for a few games next year and I'm not saying he wouldn't be useful in H/A but we need to blood someone else. I guess the question that might win him another year is will we have anybody.

 

[Gadzorks]

I'm officially over Rayner . No care factor kicking it to 3 on 1's with 40 seconds on the clock. A bit bemused at how he doesn't know better by now .There's zero hope of us trading him so what we need to do is get him right up to speed . Crucial pre season coming up , maybe he needs a minder.

Bez has shown he can play games where he actually gets in the votes . We were crying out for someone like him in the centre clearances yesterday. I haven't given up hope we can get him doing that. He's done it before.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dev is gone. Just a feeling.

Heard the comments from some on the field that the Pies had 3 gameplans and knew where players would be when they kicked into space whereas we had the one which we retreated from at times and went back to the old down the line.

Just rewatching the game we did an awesome job to be within a kick in our forward half with a minute on the clock considering all the junk time goals we coughed up. It was a great effort by the team to get so close.

Another thing that hurt us was the umps throwing it up ,they seemed to get clear advantage out of that nearly every time.

You can probably confirm after rewatching - pies seemed to get a lot of lucky bounces where the random ball fell to their favor. Did that actually happen?

 

[Elixuh]

From memory Dodongo has one nut left to bet after losing one years ago.

Dodongo has no body parts left to wager

 

[McIvor]

On FB

 

[briztoon]

Jeepers there is a lot of " baby out with the bathwater" scenarios being put out there.
.
Yes we lossed, but I don't necessarily think we need to make huge changes.

Maybe tinker with the gameplan a fraction and either develop/recruit a speedy high pressure mid.....it could be as simple as a role change here and there.
Pressure and perceived pressure in the middle and half forward areas would have created a different game in my opinion.
We need a manic high speed tackler to turn it over and create uncertainty. We can't just rely on Dunkley for our mid defensive pressure at stoppages, it needs to happen on the outside once the ball is in open play.
Bailey could be the man and it might help him have a bigger impact as well
It will just depend if he is willing to sacrifice his offensive game while positioned in the middle.

My personal view is we have a number of issues.

I’ve already mentioned fitness, lack of two way runners, etc.


Game plan is another. It’s not as simple as tinkering around the edges. It is very dependent on personal.

We don’t have the personal play against running teams.

Nor do I believe we currently have enough talent going forward.

Not to compete with the likes of GWS in the near future and Gold Coast in the longer term.


I still have concerns about Fagan’s coaching, both in terms of the style he wants to play, his game day coaching and scenarios that he puts in play.

He’s to risk adverse, and defensive oriented when games are on the line. Every time we try and defend a lead, shut down a game, or even a quarter, we go in to our shells, and invite the opposition to attack us.

And good teams score on us to easily every friggen time.

 

[briztoon]

If we trade enough players out do they award us the flag?

Probably a spoon.

 

[briztoon]

Fair enough. Just trying to figure out how to counter what Hill did to us yesterday and spitballing ideas

It wasn’t just Hill though.

Lester was constantly being beaten by his man.

Andrews wasn’t able to intercept at Will, and create drive from turn overs.

It was our defensive unit as a whole not coping with the oppositions tactics.

Part of that was a personal issue. Both in the midfield and defence.

We picked the best defensive unit we had, but our three talls are all slow. Nor were they ideal match ups for their opponents.

But defenders are often only as good as the midfield in front of them. And our mids lost their battle, which put our defenders under pressure.


Watching the game on TV, my thought halfway through the third quarter was that we needed to sub out Lester, and push Ah Chee in to defence to try and defend Hill.

But that would have exposed our midfield even more, because Lyons can’t run for sh!t any more. (hey I’ve entered the anger stage, whoopee)

 

[briztoon]

Another thing that hurt us was the umps throwing it up ,they seemed to get clear advantage out of that nearly every time.

Mason Cox hey. Who would of thought being the tallest bloke on the field, by a fair margin, and being more athletic than his opponent, would be an advantage when the randomness of a bouncing ball is taken out of the equation.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

My personal view is we have a number of issues.

I’ve already mentioned fitness, lack of two way runners, etc.


Game plan is another. It’s not as simple as tinkering around the edges. It is very dependent on personal.

We don’t have the personal play against running teams.

Nor do I believe we currently have enough talent going forward.

Not to compete with the likes of GWS in the near future and Gold Coast in the longer term.


I still have concerns about Fagan’s coaching, both in terms of the style he wants to play, his game day coaching and scenarios that he puts in play.

He’s to risk adverse, and defensive oriented when games are on the line. Every time we try and defend a lead, shut down a game, or even a quarter, we go in to our shells, and invite the opposition to attack us.

And good teams score on us to easily every friggen time.

That's a pretty rough report card for a team who just lost a Grand Final by less than a goal.

If one play goes differently at the end there, we would be the Premiers. So I'm not sure how we have a number of issues, unless you're looking at the side through the most critical lens imaginable. That same lens would see similarly worrying issues with Collingwood, Melbourne, Port, Carlton, GWS etc. The 'perfect' team doesn't exist.

I would take our position heading into 2024 over any other side in the comp. Quite comfortably, too.

Feeling confident that the best is yet to come with this group, and in significant way. I think we'll win next year, and that we'll grab another in the following three years to go alongside it.

 

[briztoon]

I'm officially over Rayner . No care factor kicking it to 3 on 1's with 40 seconds on the clock. A bit bemused at how he doesn't know better by now .There's zero hope of us trading him so what we need to do is get him right up to speed . Crucial pre season coming up , maybe he needs a minder.

I believe we have to give up any hope of Rayner being a mid.

Play him as our third tall, and switch between Charlie and Rayner being our deepest target when Daniher is in the ruck and Hipwood is roaming up a wing.

That would necessitate a change in our forward structure and personnel though.

No more Linc as a second, defensive small forward.

I’d be looking at Bailey, Robertson and another mid/forward who can support the midfield unit. But Bailey needs a kick up the arse to run harder defensively.

That would still allow Rayner to play as a high half forward when we have both Daniher and Hipwood playing forward.

 

[briztoon]

That's a pretty rough report card for a team who just lost a Grand Final by less than a goal.

If one play goes differently at the end there, we would be the Premiers. So I'm not sure how we have a number of issues, unless you're looking at the side through the most critical lens imaginable. That same lens would see similarly worrying issues with Collingwood, Melbourne, Port, Carlton, GWS etc. The 'perfect' team doesn't exist.

I would take our position heading into 2024 over any other side in the comp. Quite comfortably, too.

Feeling confident that the best is yet to come with this group, and in significant way. I think we'll win next year, and that we'll grab another in the following three years to go alongside it.

I know you’re the ultimate hype man for our team.

I try and look at us and the competition as a whole, from a pragmatic perspective.

My personal view of the final is that we only lost by less than a goal because Collingwood didn’t kick straight and kept us in it.

I thought Collingwood were comfortably the better team for much longer periods of the game.

They had 9 more scoring shots, which to me reflects their dominance.

I’d love to see what the expected score was.


I know the perfect team doesn’t exist.

But I don’t believe we’re head and shoulders the best team in the competition.

I’d put us in a bunch with Collingwood, Melbourne and GWS as genuine contenders for next year.

The Bulldogs should be better, but for their coach.

Carlton are a tier below, but are about to get a serious infusion of talent via father sons in the not to distant future. So to Adelaide, and they’re on the rise.

And Gold Coast might finally be about to arise, right when we lose the Gabba.

We probably have a two year window, before things get significantly harder. And next year is hard enough with Will out for a significant portion, and not guaranteed to come back straight away at level he was at pre injury.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

My personal view is we have a number of issues.

I’ve already mentioned fitness, lack of two way runners, etc.


Game plan is another. It’s not as simple as tinkering around the edges. It is very dependent on personal.

We don’t have the personal play against running teams.

Nor do I believe we currently have enough talent going forward.

Not to compete with the likes of GWS in the near future and Gold Coast in the longer term.


I still have concerns about Fagan’s coaching, both in terms of the style he wants to play, his game day coaching and scenarios that he puts in play.

He’s to risk adverse, and defensive oriented when games are on the line. Every time we try and defend a lead, shut down a game, or even a quarter, we go in to our shells, and invite the opposition to attack us.

And good teams score on us to easily every friggen time.

We got to GF and lost.....your summation of the team and its future seems a bit bleak for mine.

I am as disappointed as anyone about not winning, but I don't see the doom and gloom you are trying to sell.

Clearly there needs to be some work done in preseason but I think we have the ability to make the adjustments needed.

You do make a valid point on our shut down/ slow down play but that is a change that can be made relatively quickly.

Tackle and turn the ball over is the key takeaway for me. That isn't a personal thing that is a mindset/ philosophy thing.

Anyone can tackle and pressure the ball you don't need talent to do that.

We didn't apply enough pressure to turn the ball over. They won the tackle count in a winning side. They were able to have 30-40 more uncontested possession than us and move the ball. Not enough pressure or perceived pressure from us. Our contested stuff was ok, but Collingwood pressured the ball way better then us, creating more turnover and intercepts.

This is not as complicated a fix as you say.

 

[Mighty Lions]

We got to GF and lost.....your summation of the team and its future seems a bit bleak for mine.

I am as disappointed as anyone about not winning, but I don't see the doom and gloom you are trying to sell.

Clearly there needs to be some work done in preseason but I think we have the ability to make the adjustments needed.

You do make a valid point on our shut down/ slow down play but that is a change that can be made relatively quickly.

Tackle and turn the ball over is the key takeaway for me. That isn't a personal thing that is a mindset/ philosophy thing.

Anyone can tackle and pressure the ball you don't need talent to do that.

We didn't apply enough pressure to turn the ball over. They won the tackle count in a winning side. They were able to have 30-40 more uncontested possession than us and move the ball. Not enough pressure or perceived pressure from us. Our contested stuff was ok, but Collingwood pressured the ball way better then us, creating more turnover and intercepts.

This is not as complicated a fix as you say.

Agree with most of your post. Both times we played Collingwood this year in the home & away games our pressure was epic & we were able to control most of each game. In Saturday's game, Collingwood played a manic style of football that was high risk along with high reward and it won them the game. Applying pressure on the ball carrier was extremely difficult because they moved it so quick and forward at all costs which made it harder for us the have the opportunity to turn it over like we did in past games.
That said, our season was awesome and our club showed us they are capable of going another step in 2024. If we had won the game by 4 points, most of the negative comments would not be posted. I have no doubt our leaders of the club will address the issues they see as where we can improve and then lock & load next year.

 

[Dodongo]

I believe we have to give up any hope of Rayner being a mid.

Play him as our third tall, and switch between Charlie and Rayner being our deepest target when Daniher is in the ruck and Hipwood is roaming up a wing.

That would necessitate a change in our forward structure and personnel though.

No more Linc as a second, defensive small forward.

I’d be looking at Bailey, Robertson and another mid/forward who can support the midfield unit. But Bailey needs a kick up the arse to run harder defensively.

That would still allow Rayner to play as a high half forward when we have both Daniher and Hipwood playing forward.

Dodongo couldn't agree more about Rayner. His best game was when he was up forward.

Keep him up forward. He will never be anything else and treating him as such isn't utilising him.

 

[Dodongo]

I think I've been his biggest supporter on here but it's time to move on.

We might get him up for a few games next year and I'm not saying he wouldn't be useful in H/A but we need to blood someone else. I guess the question that might win him another year is will we have anybody.

Dodongo would like to see Zorko as a permanent sub

 

[Mighty Lions]

Dodongo couldn't agree more about Rayner. His best game was when he was up forward.

Keep him up forward. He will never be anything else and treating him as such isn't utilising him.

Couldn't agree less. Rayner is not even 24 years old yet. ALL players evolve as they age and Cam will be no different. There's no doubt he could prepare better for next year by really getting stuck into a pre-season that would help him play more mid field time but to say he's a forward and will only be a forward at 23 years old is wrong.

 

[Sproj]

Well we all know the actual AFL season starts and ends at trade time, this is what we all come here for. Nothing else matters.

 

[Squizz89]

Couldn't agree less. Rayner is not even 24 years old yet. ALL players evolve as they age and Cam will be no different. There's no doubt he could prepare better for next year by really getting stuck into a pre-season that would help him play more mid field time but to say he's a forward and will only be a forward at 23 years old is wrong.

Cam did not come back in the best shape of his life last offseason, but he’s shown previously he can get himself in good enough shape to give himself a chance to play a midfield role.

It’s such a shame he did a knee when he did. Not only did it set his development back a year, but we never got to see him have an extended run in the midfield where it looked like he may break out if his preseason form was anything to go by that year.

It’s now back on him this year to come back in the same condition, ready to go. Hopefully a disappointing GF from him will give him the fire to do so again.

 

[Surly Boy]

We are not strongly interested in Chol according to Tom Morris.

 

[Rouge 9917]

In the one quarter he played forward in the semi final vs the dogs I thought he was looking pretty good… got concussed though so sadly we never got to see the end of that experiment.

I’d back it though, especially if Gardiner stays fit

From memory think payne scored a good goal against Hawkes when playing up the ground in the game in tassie in 2021 or 2022, When fit has good speed and can take a contested mark

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

We need to look at someone who can help Oscar in the ruck. I don’t think that answer is currently on our list.

I thought it was pretty evident the pies were trying to tire him early and Cox/Cameron were able to keep him without a mark.

How many times did he manage to get in front only to receive arms wrapped around him
I have no idea why this is a common occurrence should be a free.
Consider that and he dominates the hit out a few more times.