List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

[Nathan Barley]

I know you’re the ultimate hype man for our team.

I try and look at us and the competition as a whole, from a pragmatic perspective.

My personal view of the final is that we only lost by less than a goal because Collingwood didn’t kick straight and kept us in it.

I thought Collingwood were comfortably the better team for much longer periods of the game.

They had 9 more scoring shots, which to me reflects their dominance.

I’d love to see what the expected score was.


I know the perfect team doesn’t exist.

But I don’t believe we’re head and shoulders the best team in the competition.

I’d put us in a bunch with Collingwood, Melbourne and GWS as genuine contenders for next year.

The Bulldogs should be better, but for their coach.

Carlton are a tier below, but are about to get a serious infusion of talent via father sons in the not to distant future. So to Adelaide, and they’re on the rise.

And Gold Coast might finally be about to arise, right when we lose the Gabba.

We probably have a two year window, before things get significantly harder. And next year is hard enough with Will out for a significant portion, and not guaranteed to come back straight away at level he was at pre injury.

I don’t think expected score will be that different given Collingwood kicked 12.12 with 5 rushed and 1 touched.

Not that it matters, it’s all part of handling the extra pressure of the GF

Our backline stood up very well only conceding 12 goals when 5 came from midfielders kicking goals from outside 50

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Dodongo has connections on this one. If there is any time to trust Dodongo it's now.

How much can you trust a guy with one testicle? More times than not, he's put a nut on the line and lost.

 

[Tom14]

I don’t think expected score will be that different given Collingwood kicked 12.12 with 5 rushed and 1 touched.

Not that it matters, it’s all part of handling the extra pressure of the GF

Our backline stood up very well only conceding 12 goals when 5 came from midfielders kicking goals from outside 50

Just under 3 goals. While they missed a lot they also kicked a few from outside 50.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Just under 3 goals. While they missed a lot they also kicked a few from outside 50.

So proves the point. They didn't kick poorly, we kicked accurately. 2 obvious examples were the Bailey goals

 

[Scubaveg]

We need to look at someone who can help Oscar in the ruck. I don’t think that answer is currently on our list.

I thought it was pretty evident the pies were trying to tire him early and Cox/Cameron were able to keep him without a mark.

Perhaps Gunston retires Chol as third forward and ruck relief?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[martinson]

You can probably confirm after rewatching - pies seemed to get a lot of lucky bounces where the random ball fell to their favor. Did that actually happen?

They were in the right spots to get it . They spread exceptionally well. Their wingers and forwards knew where the ball was going once they got it. So you get a bit lucky with with a plan.

We were far more haphazard with our entries/possessions. It was only 4 spoints , if we were just a little more systematic........Once we got the free space we generally capitalised.

I'd say they put a lot of work into that game that we weren't quite ready for. Hill getting off the chain was pre empted on here and the space and disrespect we showed him compared to some others was what cost us in the end. Amongst other things.

We were oh so close in hindsight.

 

[CarterS]

Kind of goes without saying but re-signing McCluggage and Coleman must be our number one priority.

Neither of them felt the pressure of GF day at all in fact they stood up to be counted when needed the most.

 

[irel]

I can appreciate the feelings of anger some hare are experiencing. I am no different. Trying to understand and judge where our team is at. following such a close result is not the right time. For me there is the danger that I may be transferring my feelings of disappointment, disillusionment, dejection and lack of fight on to the players and the peresonel leading our club. I trust our players are feeling the same but I also hope our club is made of much more resiliant fibre to gve it another crack next year.

 

[twhowler]

They were in the right spots to get it . They spread exceptionally well. Their wingers and forwards knew where the ball was going once they got it. So you get a bit lucky with with a plan.

We were far more haphazard with our entries/possessions. It was only 4 spoints , if we were just a little more systematic........Once we got the free space we generally capitalised.

I'd say they put a lot of work into that game that we weren't quite ready for. Hill getting off the chain was pre empted on here and the space and disrespect we showed him compared to some others was what cost us in the end. Amongst other things.

We were oh so close in hindsight.

There were at least 2 times where we let them get lucky by waiting for a bounce when we shouldn’t have

In third quarter gardiner then dunkley

 

[martinson]

My personal view is we have a number of issues.

I’ve already mentioned fitness, lack of two way runners, etc.


Game plan is another. It’s not as simple as tinkering around the edges. It is very dependent on personal.

We don’t have the personal play against running teams.

Nor do I believe we currently have enough talent going forward.

Not to compete with the likes of GWS in the near future and Gold Coast in the longer term.


I still have concerns about Fagan’s coaching, both in terms of the style he wants to play, his game day coaching and scenarios that he puts in play.

He’s to risk adverse, and defensive oriented when games are on the line. Every time we try and defend a lead, shut down a game, or even a quarter, we go in to our shells, and invite the opposition to attack us.

And good teams score on us to easily every friggen time.

On most of those issues I agree. Those junktime goals were a direct result of our crappy gameplan compared to their systematic aggressive one at the end of quarters. When you get as close as we did you tend to think your gameplan worked.

Whether it's an overlay of a personnel issue I don't know.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Hard to run out quarters when our mids play 90% game time and they bring a rested Scott Pendlebury

10

Scott Pendlebury

Age

37

Ht

191cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.5

5star

K

13.2

5star

HB

13.3

5star

M

4.1

4star

T

4.9

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

12.9

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.3

3star

CL

3.6

4star

D

12.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

and Nick Daicos into the middle to run out quarters or for the last quarter

 

[martinson]

Collingwood won its 3 finals by a total of 12 points . Pretty much unheard of. Are they just lucky ?

I'd say they were dead set lucky against Melbourne and GWS who both coughed it up in their own way.

Against us on balance they deserved to win but almost coughed it up in the end. They were just a bit more composed and systematic than us and blew a few of their own chances. Our work at the end of the 1st and second quarters is what cost us and they capitalised fully on the sloppiness.

Overall. They know how to win close games but yes they were lucky.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Tom Morris says we're no longer interested in Chol

All-Aus veteran denies Pies, picks Vic rival as next club; Sun race down to three: Trade Whispers

All-Aus veteran denies Pies, picks Vic rival; Sun race down to three: Trade Whispers

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[CarterS]

Tom Morris says we're no longer interested in Chol

All-Aus veteran denies Pies, picks Vic rival as next club; Sun race down to three: Trade Whispers

All-Aus veteran denies Pies, picks Vic rival; Sun race down to three: Trade Whispers

www.foxsports.com.au

Not super keen on Chol, so I am happy with that.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Not super keen on Chol, so I am happy with that.

Same.

 

[Berrygood]

This was such a mindful and well balanced thread before the GF. Since then it's become a bit unhinged. Sack this bloke, trade that bloke, he'll never be any good, he never was any good, blah blah blah. Players that have been very good thru the season and the finals but had an ordinary GF are now useless and have to go. Let's settle down and be a bit more rational.

 

[Nunez]

This was such a mindful and well balanced thread before the GF. Since then it's become a bit unhinged. Sack this bloke, trade that bloke, he'll never be any good, he never was any good, blah blah blah. Players that have been very good thru the season and the finals but had an ordinary GF are now useless and have to go. Let's settle down and be a bit more rational.

Some people are inherently negative. We could have won and their opinions wouldn't change.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

My personal view of the final is that we only lost by less than a goal because Collingwood didn’t kick straight and kept us in it.

I thought Collingwood were comfortably the better team for much longer periods of the game.

None of that is wrong. But you're looking through the prism of one game. Now you might say, "what else matters?". But I've seen enough footy to know that one game at the end of the year doesn't crystallise where a list is at or what you can take out of the season. Sixteen other clubs' supporters would on the whole love to be where we are now.

No offence, you call yourself pragmatic, but from what I've seen of your posts, on balance they are more critical than anything else. I rarely see from you what we do well. But everyone's different - I get that. And I'm not telling you or anyone else how to engage with the club or the game. But footy is more than strategy and analysis (even though that can be fun) and if you forget to enjoy yourself along the way, you may ask yourself later on what you were doing it all for and what you got out of it.

 

[dlanod]

Collingwood won its 3 finals by a total of 12 points . Pretty much unheard of. Are they just lucky ?

I'd say they were dead set lucky against Melbourne and GWS who both coughed it up in their own way.

Against us on balance they deserved to win but almost coughed it up in the end. They were just a bit more composed and systematic than us and blew a few of their own chances. Our work at the end of the 1st and second quarters is what cost us and they capitalised fully on the sloppiness.

Overall. They know how to win close games but yes they were lucky.

I feel similar. There's a degree of luck in winning one score games. Some win a lot, some lose a lot, but it tends to end up about even over the longer term. There's no magic for winning a close game despite what some will claim. Collingwood was a very very good team, but they also were one of the luckiest teams in that at no point did they demonstrate they were substantially better than any of the teams they played - but they went 3-0.

 

[irel]

None of that is wrong. But you're looking through the prism of one game. Now you might say, "what else matters?". But I've seen enough footy to know that one game at the end of the year doesn't crystallise where a list is at or what you can take out of the season. Sixteen other clubs' supporters would on the whole love to be where we are now.

No offence, you call yourself pragmatic, but from what I've seen of your posts, on balance they are more critical than anything else. I rarely see from you what we do well. But everyone's different - I get that. And I'm not telling you or anyone else how to engage with the club or the game. But footy is more than strategy and analysis (even though that can be fun) and if you forget to enjoy yourself along the way, you may ask yourself later on what you were doing it all for and what you got out of it.

Reflecting on this:
Following the Lions has been a journey of experiences. The lowest of lows to the highs of the last five years and culminating this year's ride, exhilarating. Haven't yet reached the summit but we'll deal with the disappointmet, dust ourselves off the muck left by Collingwood and crack in again. Bring on 24.

 

[RoyBoy17]

This was such a mindful and well balanced thread before the GF. Since then it's become a bit unhinged. Sack this bloke, trade that bloke, he'll never be any good, he never was any good, blah blah blah. Players that have been very good thru the season and the finals but had an ordinary GF are now useless and have to go. Let's settle down and be a bit more rational.

Agreed, the issues with the list are still the same as the ones we had during the season. We have improved as a team a lot this past year. Last year we just hanging in there for the second half of the season.

There is no greater examination of a team than on grand final day playing against the best. We got showed up in a few areas but we are talking little 1% percenters. In the cold light of day they tackled better than us, defended the ground a little better, had a bit more quality around stoppage/ centre clearance and footy smarts which allowed them more looks than us.

We tidy those areas up and we win comfortably given our forward half efficiency. We had them on toast every time we went forward with purpose.

I think what gets lost also is that they have a very experienced top end. Their older players have grand final experience and they looked calmer and were the ones that stood up when needed. Hill got us in the first half but Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Mitchell, Crisp through the middle were huge.

 

[martinson]

I think the posts put up on this thread and others since we lost have been overwhelmingly balanced and insightful.

Nearly everyone is philosophical about it all.

When you lose a GF by 4 points you're entitled to look for reasons why we lost it and where we could've done better and how we could improve ,and where we did well or better than expected.

As far as I can tell the vast majority of those opinions have been put up respectfully.

From my perspective if we had've won that game none of my views on what ensued during the course of it would've changed except I'd be overwhelmingly happy instead of a bit down.

 

[martinson]

Agreed, the issues with the list are still the same as the ones we had during the season. We have improved as a team a lot this past year. Last year we just hanging in there for the second half of the season.

There is no greater examination of a team than on grand final day playing against the best. We got showed up in a few areas but we are talking little 1% percenters. In the cold light of day they tackled better than us, defended the ground a little better, had a bit more quality around stoppage/ centre clearance and footy smarts which allowed them more looks than us.

We tidy those areas up and we win comfortably given our forward half efficiency. We had them on toast every time we went forward with purpose.

I think what gets lost also is that they have a very experienced top end. Their older players have grand final experience and they looked calmer and were the ones that stood up when needed. Hill got us in the first half but Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Mitchell, Crisp through the middle were huge.

They bat a lot deeper in the midfield . It was a big task for us when they all basically played well and a couple of ours weren't up to their previous capacities.

Still , we hung in there and almost got there in the end.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Few i'd be keen to enquire at and try and snag one is John Noble

2

John Noble

Age

27

Ht

180cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.3

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.1

4star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

186.1

3star

D

14.2

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.8

3star

MG

149.7

3star

D

18.8

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

229.8

4star

, Bailey Scott

8

Bailey Scott

Age

24

Ht

186cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

5.8

2star

HB

4.9

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

1.5

3star

MG

155.6

2star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.8

3star

MG

114.8

2star

D

11.8

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

5.8

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.2

3star

MG

171.6

3star

, Connor Nash, James Rowbottom

8

James Rowbottom

Age

24

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.0

4star

K

8.1

3star

HB

5.9

4star

M

2.2

2star

T

4.3

5star

CL

2.0

4star

D

14.6

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

5.6

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

3.4

4star

CL

2.5

4star

D

14.4

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.6

5star

CL

1.2

4star

and Jack Hayes

 

[irish]

Need a midfielder with a bit of pig , hard as it is to say a de Goey type , we are too nice