Autopsy 2024 AFL Season Round 17 vs Sydney Swans

[littlecreatures]

Usually you'd sit down with his manager and work out exactly what the terms he'd accept are. The Hawks won't be offering a $1 million pa x 6 or anything crazy. If you let him walk over $50k or something it's bad list management. You don't want to be a push over but you don't want to be a **** wit either.

I think clearly the club are sitting down with Battle and his manager, negotiating the contract, part you are missing is you just don’t offer FAs every single year whatever they want to keep them. I rate Battle, like most on here do, but he’s a 3rd (midsized) KPD.

You’re making a ton of assumptions here, one being the club haven’t already offered him a contract at market value.

The irony being the club are doing exactly what most would expect to actually manage their list, and cap, and correcting what got us here in the first place which was poor cap management.

IMO, it’s been done to death, but I think the reality is if Josh wants to stay, he will, if he doesn’t he won’t. I don’t think it’s a matter of the club not wanting him, and if you’re going to say otherwise I just think it’s quite presumptuous.

Think this is just a case of the glass half empty believing in whatever make believe stories they’ve already made up.

 

[Ads734]

The problem with our club, and this forum to be honest, is players aren't given a chance to prove themselves before we judge them.

They'll stick Sharman forward for a week or two and if he doesn't set the world on fire, he gets dropped or put down back.

Judging Mitch's ability to play as a mid by his performance wandering around what has for the most part been a completely dysfunctional forward line receiving dogsh*t delivery doesn't work.

He needs to train there, and be left there most of the time.

Sharman needs to be backed in as a starting forward.

Mitch Owens will kill it as bull midfielder. It'll happen eventually.. either with us or someone else. When it does people here will say why didn't that happen earlier and I... along with a few others here.... will shake our heads in disbelief.

Completely agree. Give him the off season to train as a mid. Then persist. Also we’ve seen with windy and Pou. Ross will do it, I think it’s hard because Mitch is such a dangerous forward. The other thing is we know he has midfield nouse due to his ruck work.

Like you I have no doubt he’ll be a bull in good time.

I just love the thought of Pou and Owens as two 190 plus mids with strength and power.

I would also love to run Wilson through there too like the Cats do with Holmes. He played on the ball in his nab league.

 

[Yawkey way]

Tomlinson is over 30. If they are not going to keep Battle getting an old guy seems idiotic. You'd just back Schoenmaker in at that point. There is nothing to be gained by Tomlinson. Imagine trading for him. He'll be another McKernan or Sam Rowe.

Just cover, Shoenmaker looks likely and I think Hastie will be an absolute gun. So while those two for example will get games and develop they’re still second year players and have ups and downs.

 

[Diehard Saint]

It depends how you rate the pick in the draft. It has to have a benefit or it's just wanking off about winning something when you are weakening your own list. Its looks more likely to be pick 6 than 5 now. Pushed out to 7 with Ashcroft going early.

Surely the latter point doesn’t matter? Ashcroft was never up for other clubs anyway, so if it pushes the actual pick number down by one does it matter?
Or am I not understanding it correctly?

 

[wannabewinner]

King will be on the sidelines wondering where that kind of ball movement has been all year haha

But if that's what we have to look forward to next year with a fit King in the forwardline, look out

Bonner has kicked 34 inside 50s. I am betting at least 30 of them got intercepted.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Surely the latter point doesn’t matter? Ashcroft was never up for other clubs anyway, so if it pushes the actual pick number down by one does it matter?
Or am I not understanding it correctly?

Ashcroft will go to the Lions.
No difference if he goes to the Lions in front of the Saints pick or after the Saints pick.

 

[sauce_head]

 

[sauce_head]

View attachment 2043876

Heeney!!!!

 

[gringo2011]

The problem with our club, and this forum to be honest, is players aren't given a chance to prove themselves before we judge them.

They'll stick Sharman forward for a week or two and if he doesn't set the world on fire, he gets dropped or put down back.

Judging Mitch's ability to play as a mid by his performance wandering around what has for the most part been a completely dysfunctional forward line receiving dogsh*t delivery doesn't work.

He needs to train there, and be left there most of the time.

Sharman needs to be backed in as a starting forward.

Mitch Owens will kill it as bull midfielder. It'll happen eventually.. either with us or someone else. When it does people here will say why didn't that happen earlier and I... along with a few others here.... will shake our heads in disbelief.

Sounds right to me.

 

[gringo2011]

I think clearly the club are sitting down with Battle and his manager, negotiating the contract, part you are missing is you just don’t offer FAs every single year whatever they want to keep them. I rate Battle, like most on here do, but he’s a 3rd (midsized) KPD.

You’re making a ton of assumptions here, one being the club haven’t already offered him a contract at market value.

The irony being the club are doing exactly what most would expect to actually manage their list, and cap, and correcting what got us here in the first place which was poor cap management.

IMO, it’s been done to death, but I think the reality is if Josh wants to stay, he will, if he doesn’t he won’t. I don’t think it’s a matter of the club not wanting him, and if you’re going to say otherwise I just think it’s quite presumptuous.

Think this is just a case of the glass half empty believing in whatever make believe stories they’ve already made up.

I heard information from a good source that makes it sound like it might not be quite as you see it.

 

[SaintlyHymns]

Sorry if I missed in thread already.
I've seen bad trends of Steele's body language the past few weeks. Even on the siren Sunday he looked visibly frustrated, or perhaps that was shaking his head in relief of a close finish? Wasn't sure if he was angry at the mids for nearly giving Swans stoppage clearance before we were saved by the siren.
It's been a trend with him but I feel like there are deeper injury concerns as his movement seems stifled.

 

[Remboy]

Heeney!!!!

Nah, Jelly Kelly!

 

[gringo2011]

Sorry if I missed in thread already.
I've seen bad trends of Steele's body language the past few weeks. Even on the siren Sunday he looked visibly frustrated, or perhaps that was shaking his head in relief of a close finish? Wasn't sure if he was angry at the mids for nearly giving Swans stoppage clearance before we were saved by the siren.
It's been a trend with him but I feel like there are deeper injury concerns as his movement seems stifled.

I thought he was good all night and looked like a leader.

 

[Hubnester]

Bonner has kicked 34 inside 50s. I am betting at least 30 of them got intercepted.

Interesting. Why would his inside 50 efficiency be so far below his regular DE?

 

[Teflon]

We all know we need mids. Just disagree on culling Battle to get them. We need quality and depth. Some will come from our current list. Hopefully draft another couple and trade in some cover for now.

Point is right now 6-12 is diabolical
To jump to 4 we need elite talent
You won’t get that from 1 top pick at a time
You want more got to give to get
You won’t get FAs .. LDU ain’t coming so we can stop dreaming
And looking for gold in mid season or late draft is. Lottery
Don’t think we have the choice - we aren’t destination

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

And that’s the difference isn’t it. We had everyone play well, a young mid come in and play out of his skin, even spread of goal kickers………and we win by 2 points. It was an awesome win but it still shows how far off we are in the middle. So frustrating because everything else is pretty much in place which is why I’m so desperate for another pick after ours. Imagine another Phillipou or two instead of say Clark in the middle, that’s what gets us a more convincing win. Battle had some nice moments I suppose but he’s not the difference maker we need.

I dunno mate.
As others have said Battle keeps getting better every year...One thing I noticed at the game was the speed on kicks from Henry, Warner Blakey and Goulden...Battle has that speed on the his kicks, and he can go forward an kick goals. The Wilke Battle Doogs Wedster Nas Sincs and the Yard glass miester backline is looking pretty farrrking good I reckon
Was good seeing Clark working in his phone box again...if he had a 12 month injury free run, look out!

 

[Big 0]

I thought he was good all night and looked like a leader.

Agreed. Looked as strong as he has in some time standing up in tackles etc. At the end he seemed to be frustrated at himself for losing Heeney in the final stoppage which I quite like actually; he’s thinking about standards win lose or draw

 

[hayes]

I dunno mate.
As others have said Battle keeps getting better every year...One thing I noticed at the game was the speed on kicks from Henry, Warner Blakey and Goulden...Battle has that speed on the his kicks, and he can go forward an kick goals. The Wilke Battle Doogs Wedster Nas Sincs and the Yard glass miester backline is looking pretty farrrking good I reckon
Was good seeing Clark working in his phone box again...if he had a 12 month injury free run, look out!

There’s really nothing about his kicking that stands out to me. I’d say average at best. If we were getting a pick in the 20’s then I’d be fine keeping him but a top 5-10 pick and the chance of an actual difference maker is too good to pass up for an ok player.

 

[Ricmel]

The problem with our club, and this forum to be honest, is players aren't given a chance to prove themselves before we judge them.

Well, I completely disagree. I think the problem the Saints have had since 2009 is they have been way, way too slow to make decisions.

It started in 2011 when they should have initiated a Hawthorn style rebuild - but didn't. It continued all the way through the 2010s when they persisted with players on the list - Billings, Acres, Dunstan, Newnes, Lonie etc that should have been moved on much earlier while they had at least some trade currency.

They have gotten a little bit better in the last 3 or 4 years as they have clicked that list management is a game of continual improvement, not wait and hope. As much as there is a lot to dislike about Hawks and Cats - study their list managemnet over the past 20 years and you will see how it is done - tough decisions made in the interest of the greater good.

In business we use the terminology "fail fast" all the time. It is a principal that applies equally to sport. If you give a player 10 years at AFL level, they will improve. Almost have to despite themselves. The issue is what is the opportunity cost of holding on to a player through 5 or 6 years of mediocrity to eventually get a player that is still pretty average. The A graders, you see that in the first year or two.

Personally, I think the problem with our club is that it has not be quick enough or aggressive enough in pursuing best practice list managemnet.

 

[Sully111]

Well, I completely disagree. I think the problem the Saints have had since 2009 is they have been way, way too slow to make decisions.

It started in 2011 when they should have initiated a Hawthorn style rebuild - but didn't. It continued all the way through the 2010s when they persisted with players on the list - Billings, Acres, Dunstan, Newnes, Lonie etc that should have been moved on much earlier while they had at least some trade currency.

They have gotten a little bit better in the last 3 or 4 years as they have clicked that list management is a game of continual improvement, not wait and hope. As much as there is a lot to dislike about Hawks and Cats - study their list managemnet over the past 20 years and you will see how it is done - tough decisions made in the interest of the greater good.

In business we use the terminology "fail fast" all the time. It is a principal that applies equally to sport. If you give a player 10 years at AFL level, they will improve. Almost have to despite themselves. The issue is what is the opportunity cost of holding on to a player through 5 or 6 years of mediocrity to eventually get a player that is still pretty average. The A graders, you see that in the first year or two.

Personally, I think the problem with our club is that it has not be quick enough or aggressive enough in pursuing best practice list managemnet.

I'm not talking about persisting with a player for years in a position and hoping they come good.

I mean recognise their strengths and train them in their best position and persist with them long enough to give them a decent chance at proving themselves.

I want to see a clear plan, rather than "oh we'll try him on ball or up forward for half a game here and there and see how he goes", and if he doesn't set the world on fire straight away, we label them as no good in that position.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Sorry if I missed in thread already.
I've seen bad trends of Steele's body language the past few weeks. Even on the siren Sunday he looked visibly frustrated, or perhaps that was shaking his head in relief of a close finish? Wasn't sure if he was angry at the mids for nearly giving Swans stoppage clearance before we were saved by the siren.
It's been a trend with him but I feel like there are deeper injury concerns as his movement seems stifled.

28 Disposals ( Equal most on ground ).
7 Tackles ( most on ground ).
4 Clearances ( Pou the only Saint to have more ).
87% time on ground.
2 Centre clearances ( equal most on ground ).
5 score involvements.
6 intercept possessions.
1 tackles inside 50.
14 contested possessions. ( the most on the ground ).
2 score launches.
22 pressure acts.

He might have been a little tired.

As a seasonal thing he's down a little, but i find body language analysts to be unreliable.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Point is right now 6-12 is diabolical
To jump to 4 we need elite talent
You won’t get that from 1 top pick at a time
You want more got to give to get
You won’t get FAs .. LDU ain’t coming so we can stop dreaming
And looking for gold in mid season or late draft is. Lottery
Don’t think we have the choice - we aren’t destination

Battle could be closer to elite talent than what you end up getting for him.

We have a fair few players who are very young.
We would be hoping for some improvement?
Do you think that Windhager, Owens, Phillipou, Wanganeen-Milera, Henry are as good as they will ever be?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Point is right now 6-12 is diabolical
To jump to 4 we need elite talent
You won’t get that from 1 top pick at a time
You want more got to give to get
You won’t get FAs .. LDU ain’t coming so we can stop dreaming
And looking for gold in mid season or late draft is. Lottery
Don’t think we have the choice - we aren’t destination

If Philipou had played like that every game, we probably wouldn't be 6-12 ( based on actual scores ).

 

[wannabewinner]

Interesting. Why would his inside 50 efficiency be so far below his regular DE?

Risky long kicks? Great when they come off. Intercepted by good players.

 

[BrutThough]

Sorry if I missed in thread already.
I've seen bad trends of Steele's body language the past few weeks. Even on the siren Sunday he looked visibly frustrated, or perhaps that was shaking his head in relief of a close finish? Wasn't sure if he was angry at the mids for nearly giving Swans stoppage clearance before we were saved by the siren.
It's been a trend with him but I feel like there are deeper injury concerns as his movement seems stifled.

Saw some conjecture about this on twitter so rewatched. Once the siren goes, he shakes his head and says f*ck yeah, then goes gives Arie and Marshall a hug. A completely normal post siren reaction.

People are trying to read something into nothing and almost find reasons why our only good mid should leave.