List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[DollarsandSense]

He's had minutes in the VFL, unclear how much video or training work has been done (knowing us I'd imagine almost none). Was moved into the midfield as junior and started to dominate games.

Walsh as a centre bounce mid is still a weird dice roll to make, and we probably need 3 athletically capable mids who can play the wing to make the 22 work.

Kemp got dropped repeatedly and only forced his way in on the back of Young shitting the bed and Kemp taking the onus in the VFL to attack the ball in the air and run it out.

Either through instruction or lack of coaching insight, he had not been taking the game on until that point. It's possible that was part of a number of changes being trialled in the VFL, but the exact timing on his tactical change compared to the others eludes me at the moment.

Even then, still got dumped a week after making a fumble that almost cost us a semi-final berth. I think he did a good job in what was something of a makeshift 22 at times last year, but with Docherty redlining it last year in the midfield and now 30, I'm not sure he'll be in our 2023 midfield, or at least I don't think he'll have the most impact there.

Kemp on the other hand has all the raw tools to be a star midfield 1-2 punch with Cripps but everyone here seems to think he's not up to it mentally. I disagree.

I'm not comparing him to Cripps, and if he's a half-decent study he won't need half a VFL season... he can be embedded in the pre-season unless he has zero self-confidence and/or wherewithal.

And I'm happy to call bullshit on him lacking the pace and foot skills for the role. Ball winning is about where you're being played, and when afforded intercept duties he won plenty of ball. His first few steps are very good, and his top end pace is genuinely elite:



First game in he flashed wheels and the ability to release others by hand in traffic...

Look through his highlights from this year and tell me you don't see how the way he moves the ball by hand and foot stands out. Alongside that he's got enough fitness and defensive application to make it all work:



You don't have blokes who make quick decisions and moves in traffic like he does sitting in the back pocket if they can run out games. It's just ludicrous.


That's not really who he'd be replacing. I'd have him relieving on the wing and dipping back if the back six needed more help. I'd rely on the wings to effectively take turns being the 7th defender in the rotation, and his pace and skills would be a point of difference.

It's probably a long shot though, so it'd just be split between Ollie, Walsh, and Acres.

And as I regularly say these days, Newman is still in that next tier of selections, and we're unlikely to have a fully fit best 22 at any given point in the year, especially in defence. Conversely, he's the oldest player on the list, will be 31 at the start of the season and he pushed his body a lot in the back half of this year.

But I'm also banking on a fast start in a new environment from one of Elijah and Billy, and Cuningham doing enough to warrant selection as a regular mid, to name but a few. It won't all pan out, and he'd probably be the next name on the board.

geez, you really forget how good this guy is.... I love watching him behind the ball, his vision, quick hands, leap and attack on the footy is fantastic. I'd really like to see him get some midfield minutes throughout the year to see what he's got.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

Corey Durdin is a keeper for me but it might come down to opportunity the rest I agree with.

And we've all seen how close he is with his family, especially his younger sister. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he requested a trade at some stage back to SA to be closer to them.

Definitely a keeper if he wants to stay though - he was an absolute stand out at the start of the year at preseason training, and looked set for a massive year before he was cut down by injury. Had a quiet first half of the season, but didn't we all - I would have loved to have seen him as part of the resurgence in the 2nd half of the year. IMO he would have taken his game to a new level with that groundswell.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

And we've all seen how close he is with his family, especially his younger sister. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he requested a trade at some stage back to SA to be closer to them.

Definitely a keeper if he wants to stay though - he was an absolute stand out at the start of the year at preseason training, and looked set for a massive year before he was cut down by injury. Had a quiet first half of the season, but didn't we all - I would have loved to have seen him as part of the resurgence in the 2nd half of the year. IMO he would have taken his game to a new level with that groundswell.

Can see him asking for trade for that reason, got my fingers crossed he doesn't.
The injury last season kind of made him out of sight out of mind, not for me it didn't he's good.

 

[Coona Blues]

Difficult to nail down right now, but I suspect we will still have half a dozen list changes as a minimum

Oh come on Arr0w, if we have half a dozen list changes, that will include quitting Cat B Akuei, from outside the “list proper” and perhaps project ruck Mirkov assuming O’Keeffe is on a better trajectory and there is no room to promote him to the main list.

The reference is primarily to the main list. We will struggle to move three off. With no key position throw at the stumps this year, there is a fair chance Young and rookie Durdin are retained accordingly for another couple of years minimum.

Fogarty, Cuningham, Owies and Carroll will be the most at risk there. ( might be some rookie shuffling for at least one of them). If Martin struggles dramatically physically, he likely won’t be renewed. Marchy at some risk if has ongoing injury issues. There is a realistic scenario where we would prefer to retain them all.

We will likely move three off the main list, with an outside chance of four. I find it very hard to see anyone seeking to trade while we are in this window

We could explore the re-rookie path with Mirkov if we want to keep him, as we could with Nigel Durdin the following year.
Your love child Boyd will require an upgrade at the end of next year if he is to remain (hard to see him surviving a re-rookie exercise) Cincotta and O’Keeffe would require upgrade the next year (along with Nigel) expectation would be that we retain them.

Generalising is easy, as it stands, which three of
Fogarty
Cuningham
Owies
C.Durdin
Marchbank
Carroll
Martin
Cottrell

are you moving?

Rookies are a part of calculations, so yes there is a chance you can get to six changes including Dom, Mirk and maybe Nigel,
but please enlighten me on your three (or four) main list expendables.

 

[Arr0w]

Oh come on Arr0w, if we have half a dozen list changes, that will include quitting Cat B Akuei, from outside the “list proper” and perhaps project ruck Mirkov assuming O’Keeffe is on a better trajectory and there is no room to promote him to the main list.

The reference is primarily to the main list. We will struggle to move three off. With no key position throw at the stumps this year, there is a fair chance Young and rookie Durdin are retained accordingly for another couple of years minimum.

Fogarty, Cuningham, Owies and Carroll will be the most at risk there. ( might be some rookie shuffling for at least one of them). If Martin struggles dramatically physically, he likely won’t be renewed. Marchy at some risk if has ongoing injury issues. There is a realistic scenario where we would prefer to retain them all.

We will likely move three off the main list, with an outside chance of four. I find it very hard to see anyone seeking to trade while we are in this window

We could explore the re-rookie path with Mirkov if we want to keep him, as we could with Nigel Durdin the following year.
Your love child Boyd will require an upgrade at the end of next year if he is to remain (hard to see him surviving a re-rookie exercise) Cincotta and O’Keeffe would require upgrade the next year (along with Nigel) expectation would be that we retain them.

Generalising is easy, as it stands, which three of
Fogarty
Cuningham
Owies
C.Durdin
Marchbank
Carroll
Martin
Cottrell

are you moving?

Rookies are a part of calculations, so yes there is a chance you can get to six changes including Dom, Mirk and maybe Nigel,
but please enlighten me on your three (or four) main list expendables.

Eluding to 6 was from the main list Coona.

None of us have a crystal ball, but even the grand finalists had 8 list changes each

From your list, Fog and Owies could easily fall behind the pecking order with E Hollands and Fantasia

Cuners and Marchbank could breakdown again

Durdin and Carroll could request a trade for more opportunities

 

[branedotorg]

Corey Durdin is a keeper for me but it might come down to opportunity the rest I agree with.

i don't want to lose Durdin either but not a lot of trade value on that list, he is one who i'd think we'd get a return on should he leave

 

[Blue__Balls]

i don't want to lose Durdin either but not a lot of trade value on that list, he is one who i'd think we'd get a return on should he leave

I wouldn't be getting your hopes up for too much at the trade table.

If he wants out, it's because he's down the pecking order.

Drafted at 37 in 2020.
34 games in three seasons since. Maybe add another half dozen to that this year (if he's playing 50% of the season I suspect he'd stay).

He's less than 10 touches and a goal a game. You'd find a similar player in the third round of most drafts if you wanted to, so I think the most we could hope for would be a third rounder from Adelaide or Port. They're not giving up more than that, and they're probably pushing to give up less (ie. third for Durdin and a later third or early fourth).

 

[Coona Blues]

Eluding to 6 was from the main list Coona.

None of us have a crystal ball, but even the grand finalists had 8 list changes each

From your list, Fog and Owies could easily fall behind the pecking order with E Hollands and Fantasia

Cuners and Marchbank could breakdown again

Durdin and Carroll could request a trade for more opportunities

They are all could A, I would not like the job of assessing who falls out if they have decent seasons, which is a real possibility.

If forced to find three, Owies and Fogarty are the two that drop first. With a bit of age and some flaws, either could be managed on to the rookie list.

I can’t identify another to be forced to delist. Cuners sort of stands out as one who may struggle for opportunity elsewhere if he can’t cement a top 23 spot.

Clearly Martin, Cuners and Marchy are going to be fitness dependent. We have committed plenty of time and resources getting on top of their issues.

Carroll has been supported through plenty of niggles and we would be looking for return on investment. He is still a kid. Would have interest from the WA teams, but would only return a token pick. Less, even as they will be aware of our need to find spots.

I can’t contemplate delisting Durds, still think he is long term in our best pair of small forwards, once his body is sorted. Doubt we would want to trade him by choice.

Trading Young hardly an option while we do not have a developing KPD (giving Lemmey time back in the twos may change that) Durdin could be very decent alternative there, but is a bit prone to soft tissue issues. Kennedy and Hewett may be one too many mids, but our game style puts plenty of physical pressure on the mids. Hewett’s chronic back gives him minimal trade value, and it also places a kybosh on moving “Chugga”. Maybe Carroll elevates, or Elijah making a midfield role his own alters this.

I see very few, if any, of our group seeking trades.

…and once we sort next year’s departures, repeat the exercise for 2025 (Do we get some retirees by then? No guarantee.)

 

[branedotorg]

I wouldn't be getting your hopes up for too much at the trade table.

If he wants out, it's because he's down the pecking order.

Drafted at 37 in 2020.
34 games in three seasons since. Maybe add another half dozen to that this year (if he's playing 50% of the season I suspect he'd stay).

He's less than 10 touches and a goal a game. You'd find a similar player in the third round of most drafts if you wanted to, so I think the most we could hope for would be a third rounder from Adelaide or Port. They're not giving up more than that, and they're probably pushing to give up less (ie. third for Durdin and a later third or early fourth).

yeah that's what i think he's worth now too, a third rounder has value but the rest of Arr0w 's list would mostly be DFAs:

Lachie Fogarty - Opportunities
Jack Carroll Possible trade
Corey Durdin - Possible trade
Jack Martin - Keep
Caleb Marchbank - Durability
David Cuningham - Durability
Jordan Boyd - Keep
Sam Durdin - Keep
Matthew Owies - Opportunities
Alex Mirkov - Delist
Matthew Cottrell - Keep
Alex Cincotta - Keep
Hudson O'Keeffe - Keep
Domanic Akuei - Delist
Elijah Hollands - Watch
Matt Carroll - Keep

 

[macky99]

They are all could A, I would not like the job of assessing who falls out if they have decent seasons, which is a real possibility.

If forced to find three, Owies and Fogarty are the two that drop first. With a bit of age and some flaws, either could be managed on to the rookie list.

I can’t identify another to be forced to delist. Cuners sort of stands out as one who may struggle for opportunity elsewhere if he can’t cement a top 23 spot.

Clearly Martin, Cuners and Marchy are going to be fitness dependent. We have committed plenty of time and resources getting on top of their issues.

Carroll has been supported through plenty of niggles and we would be looking for return on investment. He is still a kid. Would have interest from the WA teams, but would only return a token pick. Less, even as they will be aware of our need to find spots.

I can’t contemplate delisting Durds, still think he is long term in our best pair of small forwards, once his body is sorted. Doubt we would want to trade him by choice.

Trading Young hardly an option while we do not have a developing KPD (giving Lemmey time back in the twos may change that) Durdin could be very decent alternative there, but is a bit prone to soft tissue issues. Kennedy and Hewett may be one too many mids, but our game style puts plenty of physical pressure on the mids. Hewett’s chronic back gives him minimal trade value, and it also places a kybosh on moving “Chugga”. Maybe Carroll elevates, or Elijah making a midfield role his own alters this.

I see very few, if any, of our group seeking trades.

…and once we sort next year’s departures, repeat the exercise for 2025 (Do we get some retirees by then? No guarantee.)

Pretty sure the conversation around this would have been very different around Round 14 this year, there are a bunch of teams where the gap is not much at all, we are in that group and our performance levels will need to be more consistent over the season to be a contender.

To have sustained success need to keep bringing in fresh talent each year, depending on how the season plays out there would be 4-6 new players next year which is pretty standard for even successful teams.

 

[marcmurphy3]

yeah that's what i think he's worth now too, a third rounder has value but the rest of Arr0w 's list would mostly be DFAs:

Lachie Fogarty - Opportunities
Jack Carroll Possible trade
Corey Durdin - Possible trade
Jack Martin - Keep
Caleb Marchbank - Durability
David Cuningham - Durability
Jordan Boyd - Keep
Sam Durdin - Keep
Matthew Owies - Opportunities
Alex Mirkov - Delist
Matthew Cottrell - Keep
Alex Cincotta - Keep
Hudson O'Keeffe - Keep
Domanic Akuei - Delist
Elijah Hollands - Watch
Matt Carroll - Keep

Agree with most of those. I tried looking at it a different way. Scale of 1-10. 10 Definitely Keep. 1 Definitely delist. 5 Fifty-fifty.

Lachie Fogarty - 4/10
Jack Carroll - 3/10
Corey Durdin - 7/10
Jack Martin - 9/10
Caleb Marchbank - 6/10 (injuries dependent)
David Cuningham - 5/10 (injuries dependent)
Jordan Boyd - 7/10
Sam Durdin - 4/10
Matthew Owies - 6/10
Alex Mirkov - 1/10
Matthew Cottrell - 8/10
Alex Cincotta - 6/10
Hudson O'Keeffe - 8/10
Domanic Akuei - 1/10
Elijah Hollands - 8/10
Matt Carroll - Keep

So, I think Akuie and Mirkov are pretty much guaranteed delisting's. Carroll, Fogarty, S.Durdin more likely to go then stay. C.Durdin, Boyd, Cincotta, Owies more likely to stay then go (though delisting is possible if they have a really bad year). Martin, Cottrell, Hollands, O'Keefe almost guaranteed to stay (would require a disaster on the personal or injury front to go).

Marchbank and Cunningham are injury dependent, so I rated about 50/50. I rated Marchbank higher as I think with his role if fit, he is almost a guarantee, while a fit Cunnigham if he continues to go missing could still be borderline.

 

[Blue and Silver]

Another way to look at this might be to set some benchmarks from out of contract players (free agency status in brackets).

Alex Cincotta - Best 22 contention 5 games min

Alex Mirkov - Full VFL year with clear progress

Caleb Marchbank (RFA) - Best 22 consolidated

Corey Durdin - Best 22 contention 10 games min

David Cuningham

28

David Cuningham

Age

27

Ht

183cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.3

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.3

5star

G

0.5

3star

D

12.1

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

5.6

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.1

3star

G

0.4

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

5.6

5star

G

0.4

3star

(RFA) Best 22 consolidated

Domanic Akuei - Full VFL year with clear progress

Elijah Hollands - Best 22 Contention 10 games min

Hudson O'Keeffe - Full VFL year with clear progress

Jack Carroll - Best 22 Contention 5 games min

Jack Martin

21

Jack Martin

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

- Best 22 Consolidated

Jordan Boyd - Best 22 Contention 5 games min

Lachlan Fogarty

8

Lachlan Fogarty

Age

25

Ht

180cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.8

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

5.8

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.6

5star

G

0.3

3star

No current season stats available

D

15.4

4star

K

8.8

4star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.8

5star

G

0.8

4star

- Best 22 Contention 10 games min

Matt Carroll - Full VFL year with clear progress

Matt Cottrell - Best 22 Contention 10 games min

Matt Owies - Best 22 Contention 10 games min

Orazio Fantasia

14

Orazio Fantasia

Age

29

Ht

180cm

Wt

73kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.6

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

3.1

5star

G

1.4

5star

D

9.8

2star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.4

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.2

2star

G

0.2

3star

D

12.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

7.4

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.2

4star

G

0.0

1star

(UFA) - Best 22 Contention 10 games min

Sam Durdin

38

Sam Durdin

Age

28

Ht

199cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.7

2star

K

6.2

2star

HB

3.5

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

11.2

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.6

4star

(UFA) - Best 22 Contention 5 games min

3 Categories basically

Best 22 Consolidated - Injury history and age mean that if they aren't Best 22 then they may be expendable

Best 22 Contention - Should be in the mix in their position, if they haven't reached a minimum number of games, then they probably aren't long term and are expendable

Full VFL year with clear progress - development prospect, but needs to show AFL viability.

On Pixel 7 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[bigblueboy]

Oh come on Arr0w, if we have half a dozen list changes, that will include quitting Cat B Akuei, from outside the “list proper” and perhaps project ruck Mirkov assuming O’Keeffe is on a better trajectory and there is no room to promote him to the main list.

The reference is primarily to the main list. We will struggle to move three off. With no key position throw at the stumps this year, there is a fair chance Young and rookie Durdin are retained accordingly for another couple of years minimum.

Fogarty, Cuningham, Owies and Carroll will be the most at risk there. ( might be some rookie shuffling for at least one of them). If Martin struggles dramatically physically, he likely won’t be renewed. Marchy at some risk if has ongoing injury issues. There is a realistic scenario where we would prefer to retain them all.

We will likely move three off the main list, with an outside chance of four. I find it very hard to see anyone seeking to trade while we are in this window

We could explore the re-rookie path with Mirkov if we want to keep him, as we could with Nigel Durdin the following year.
Your love child Boyd will require an upgrade at the end of next year if he is to remain (hard to see him surviving a re-rookie exercise) Cincotta and O’Keeffe would require upgrade the next year (along with Nigel) expectation would be that we retain them.

Generalising is easy, as it stands, which three of
Fogarty
Cuningham
Owies
C.Durdin
Marchbank
Carroll
Martin
Cottrell

are you moving?

Rookies are a part of calculations, so yes there is a chance you can get to six changes including Dom, Mirk and maybe Nigel,
but please enlighten me on your three (or four) main list expendables.

I’ll chime in here.
I like Cuningham but he is the most overrated player on our list. His performance level seemingly grew mystically while he was out injured. Prime trade material in my view.
Owies and Fogarty are both salt of the earth triers but limited and will be surpassed by others.
Carroll has shown very little and we’ve recruited players this off-season who also play his role.
Reckon those four need to show they go up another level or could be elsewhere in 2025.

 

[JuddgementDay]

Yeah, it's a bit weird knowing that the 2024 draft has already been written for us.

The boys might jump on a plane to head back to Ireland for another junket, but we've already got Duffy heading over when he's able (which I'm already excited about).

The only other things we could be working towards may be luring a free agent....though looking at the list, there's not a lot who appeal except maybe Hayward, Zurhaar, Perryman and Cumberland. Apart from Cumberland, I can't see any of those really wanting to leave their current clubs - and I'm not sure we'd appeal to many FA's anyway if they're not assured of a regular game. A 'cheaper' depth player may be more realistic.

We could also be looking at ways to move up the draft board to get ahead of the Campo bids - but that'd depend on what type of year they have leading to the draft as to where they may receive a bid, and what changes the AFL could make to the bidding/points system.

We may be able to get a pre-agent with F1 from 2024 & 2025

I have not looked, but expect Pre-agent list to be more attractive

 

[JuddgementDay]

I’m enjoying these discussions, how quickly have we moved from list cloggers to “we don’t really want to lose these guys” but, we have no choice

 

[Blue__Balls]

I wouldn't be getting your hopes up for too much at the trade table.

If he wants out, it's because he's down the pecking order.

Drafted at 37 in 2020.
34 games in three seasons since. Maybe add another half dozen to that this year (if he's playing 50% of the season I suspect he'd stay).

He's less than 10 touches and a goal a game. You'd find a similar player in the third round of most drafts if you wanted to, so I think the most we could hope for would be a third rounder from Adelaide or Port. They're not giving up more than that, and they're probably pushing to give up less (ie. third for Durdin and a later third or early fourth).

Coona Blues Dunna Heartknee Kernafides

Don't mind if you disagree, but would you care to elaborate on what it is you disagree with?

That Durdin might leave for more opportunity if he can't cement a spot?
That Durdin has played 30-odd games in three years and not really done anything to increase his value since being drafted?
That he averages less than 10 touches and a goal a game?
That you can find players who offer similar output in the third round of most drafts?
That we should expect more than a third rounder for him?
That Adelaide or Port (likely suitors given his home state) would prefer to pay less than that?

 

[Coona Blues]

I’ll chime in here.
I like Cuningham but he is the most overrated player on our list. His performance level seemingly grew mystically while he was out injured. Prime trade material in my view.
Owies and Fogarty are both salt of the earth triers but limited and will be surpassed by others.
Carroll has shown very little and we’ve recruited players this off-season who also play his role.
Reckon those four need to show they go up another level or could be elsewhere in 2025.

Simples?

Not quite, taking Owies, Fogarty and Cuningham takes three options from one role in one fell swoop. Unless Fantasia is “flying” to go with Motlop, Durds and Cottrell. A combo of Martin, E.Hollands and Moir may mitigate to a degree, but it seems unlikely. I suppose we could repurpose Williams and/or Boyd in the front half as the young defenders come on.

 

[Coona Blues]

Coona Blues Dunna Heartknee Kernafides

Don't mind if you disagree, but would you care to elaborate on what it is you disagree with?

That Durdin might leave for more opportunity if he can't cement a spot?
That Durdin has played 30-odd games in three years and not really done anything to increase his value since being drafted?
That he averages less than 10 touches and a goal a game?
That you can find players who offer similar output in the third round of most drafts?
That we should expect more than a third rounder for him?
That Adelaide or Port (likely suitors given his home state) would prefer to pay less than that?

Durdin has been injured for most of the last two years. Applying absolutes to pure statistics is misleading. When he has played, the small forwards were deployed in defensive roles, covering for one way running team mates. While there will always be some dispensation for players (Cripps) for not working defensively, the likes of Acres, Dutchy and redeploying Doc has gone a long way to minimising the issue. His forward potency has been blunted by defensive demands. That changed somewhat in the back half last season, when he has finished rehab, he will almost certainly be more effective.

The most “offensive” is “you can find players who offer similar output in the third round of most drafts”. Very disrespectful to a young man I, the club and plenty of others rate very highly.

I have plenty of respect for foot soldiers Owies and Fogarty as well, but expect/concede that they will likely end up depth behind Motlop, Durdin and (if fit) Fantasia in the coming season. I find it hard to read where Cuningham sits, he is a genuine mid/forward with plenty of upside. Probably not as much upside as all of Martin, E.Hollands and Moir.

I support all of our players, as well as respecting them. The couple I had limited respect for turned their “malaise” around last season. We lost some decent players at the end of last year, will be a hard and thankless task from here making changes to the list. I especially feel for Plowman who has been an excellent clubman and was a great contributor when our list ansd system was lacking. It was the right time to move him, but he copped way too much disrespect on the way out.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Durdin has been injured for most of the last two years. Applying absolutes to pure statistics is misleading. When he has played, the small forwards were deployed in defensive roles, covering for one way running team mates. While there will always be some dispensation for players (Cripps) for not working defensively, the likes of Acres, Dutchy and redeploying Doc has gone a long way to minimising the issue. His forward potency has been blunted by defensive demands. That changed somewhat in the back half last season, when he has finished rehab, he will almost certainly be more effective.

The most “offensive” is “you can find players who offer similar output in the third round of most drafts”. Very disrespectful to a young man I, the club and plenty of others rate very highly.

I have plenty of respect for foot soldiers Owies and Fogarty as well, but expect/concede that they will likely end up depth behind Motlop, Durdin and (if fit) Fantasia in the coming season. I find it hard to read where Cuningham sits, he is a genuine mid/forward with plenty of upside. Probably not as much upside as all of Martin, E.Hollands and Moir.

I support all of our players, as well as respecting them. The couple I had limited respect for turned their “malaise” around last season. We lost some decent players at the end of last year, will be a hard and thankless task from here making changes to the list. I especially feel for Plowman who has been an excellent clubman and was a great contributor when our list ansd system was lacking. It was the right time to move him, but he copped way too much disrespect on the way out.

Not sure how that could be classed as disrespectful to him? He was taken with what is effectively a third rounder, and I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that other players with similar output/potential cannot be found in the third round as well. That comes into the equation when you're trying to negotiate a trade with another club. It's all well and good to say "we didn't use him in a way that showcases his strengths", but that's not going to convince Port Adelaide to stump up a second round pick for him.

Hypothetically, let's say we were looking for a quick-ish midfielder with decent skills this year. There's one on the market, out of contract, 3-4 years in the system after being drafted with a pick in the 30s, played a handful of games but not really set the world on fire, a few injury issues, only featured a few times in the seniors this season. His club says "Well, we like him a lot, we want Pick 20-25 for him". Do we pull out the stops and commit multiple resources to "overpay" for the player, or do we make the assessment that we think a few of Edwards, DeMattia, Wilson, Simpson, Hall, McAuliffe, Freijah etc. will be available and provide us with similar output for a lesser outlay?

I like Durds, I think he's a ripping little player and I hope he finds a way to establish himself in our side. But there is competition for spots, he doesn't have a body of work that screams "you have to pick me" or "I'm a player you desperately want to recruit", and if he finds himself on the fringe when we need to open up list spots then he becomes a commodity. And as a commodity, based on the prior points, we're not really in a position to demand or expect a great deal for him. Not because he's crap (he's not), but because the circumstances dictate that any clubs that harbour some interest in him are likely in a strong position to negotiate given they can almost certainly find a somewhat comparable player for "fair value" in the draft rather than paying overs to satisfy us.

 

[BlueJet]

Coona Blues Dunna Heartknee Kernafides

Don't mind if you disagree, but would you care to elaborate on what it is you disagree with?

That Durdin might leave for more opportunity if he can't cement a spot?
That Durdin has played 30-odd games in three years and not really done anything to increase his value since being drafted?
That he averages less than 10 touches and a goal a game?
That you can find players who offer similar output in the third round of most drafts?
That we should expect more than a third rounder for him?
That Adelaide or Port (likely suitors given his home state) would prefer to pay less than that?

It's the fun part of valuing players.
Some will look at what he could be & salivate, others will look at output & see him as replaceable.
I'd imagine that his value to us would be higher than the potential return via trade.

 

[Coona Blues]

Not sure how that could be classed as disrespectful to him? He was taken with what is effectively a third rounder, and I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that other players with similar output/potential cannot be found in the third round as well. That comes into the equation when you're trying to negotiate a trade with another club. It's all well and good to say "we didn't use him in a way that showcases his strengths", but that's not going to convince Port Adelaide to stump up a second round pick for him.

Hypothetically, let's say we were looking for a quick-ish midfielder with decent skills this year. There's one on the market, out of contract, 3-4 years in the system after being drafted with a pick in the 30s, played a handful of games but not really set the world on fire, a few injury issues, only featured a few times in the seniors this season. His club says "Well, we like him a lot, we want Pick 20-25 for him". Do we pull out the stops and commit multiple resources to "overpay" for the player, or do we make the assessment that we think a few of Edwards, DeMattia, Wilson, Simpson, Hall, McAuliffe, Freijah etc. will be available and provide us with similar output for a lesser outlay?

I like Durds, I think he's a ripping little player and I hope he finds a way to establish himself in our side. But there is competition for spots, he doesn't have a body of work that screams "you have to pick me" or "I'm a player you desperately want to recruit", and if he finds himself on the fringe when we need to open up list spots then he becomes a commodity. And as a commodity, based on the prior points, we're not really in a position to demand or expect a great deal for him. Not because he's crap (he's not), but because the circumstances dictate that any clubs that harbour some interest in him are likely in a strong position to negotiate given they can almost certainly find a somewhat comparable player for "fair value" in the draft rather than paying overs to satisfy us.

You asked for the respect of a response over a disagree emoji. You got it.

Now you come back doubling down with disrespect by introducing “debate” driving down what your narrow perception has of a Carlton player’s “value”.

I “head” a significant group of supporters in here who would not even begin to contemplate what Corey’s draft value is. He has had both knee and shoulder injuries in recent times, pretty sure was a back issue as well. He plays the game as it should be played and throws his full commitment in to his game, which is very physical for his size. He is a required player.

You want to bang on about hypothetical values, other consider that disrespectful in the context of the conversation that was going on. Your post is doubling down in pushing him out the door and disrespecting what he has already shown. You are repeatedly describing a fringe battler, he is not that. When fit he has been an almost automatic best 22 player, despite being in the “infancy” of his career, and not getting “a decent run at it”.

Your posting of “don’t mind if you disagree” was clearly not true. I am not going further in one of your to and fro exchanges. You are overall a decent poster, but can easily display the chip on your shoulder when questioned. Think I will leave it to an emoji next time.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

That Durdin might leave for more opportunity if he can't cement a spot?
That Durdin has played 30-odd games in three years and not really done anything to increase his value since being drafted?
That he averages less than 10 touches and a goal a game?
That you can find players who offer similar output in the third round of most drafts?
That we should expect more than a third rounder for him?
That Adelaide or Port (likely suitors given his home state) would prefer to pay less than that?

Your going by stats for a player from poor system seasons, I think you are grossly underestimating him.

 

[Blue__Balls]

You asked for the respect of a response over a disagree emoji. You got it.

Now you come back doubling down with disrespect by introducing “debate” driving down what your narrow perception has of a Carlton player’s “value”.

I “head” a significant group of supporters in here who would not even begin to contemplate what Corey’s draft value is. He has had both knee and shoulder injuries in recent times, pretty sure was a back issue as well. He plays the game as it should be played and throws his full commitment in to his game, which is very physical for his size. He is a required player.

You want to bang on about hypothetical values, other consider that disrespectful in the context of the conversation that was going on. Your post is doubling down in pushing him out the door and disrespecting what he has already shown. You are repeatedly describing a fringe battler, he is not that. When fit he has been an almost automatic best 22 player, despite being in the “infancy” of his career, and not getting “a decent run at it”.

Your posting of “don’t mind if you disagree” was clearly not true. I am not going further in one of your to and fro exchanges. You are overall a decent poster, but can easily display the chip on your shoulder when questioned. Think I will leave it to an emoji next time.

I have no idea where this has come from Coona, if we're talking chip on the shoulder I'd suggest it's more evident that some moderate critique of a player's trade value in a list management thread has you accusing me of being disrespectful.

At no point have I made any effort to push Durdin out the door. At no point have I suggested he's not capable of making the cut as an AFL player, or a Carlton player. You want to track the conversation back one page? Arrow assessed him as a "possible trade". Dunna stated they'd prefer to keep him but conceded he might be one that looks for opportunity elsewhere depending on how 2024 goes. Branedotorg was in the same boat as preferring to keep him but suggesting he may have value. All I did was convey that should he be looking for a new home next year it would likely only be if he wasn't able to crack into the seniors with any regularity, and that in that circumstance we shouldn't expect much back in a trade.

I'm not even sure how you can class my perception of his value as "narrow" given I've taken into account factors within and without our control. His original draft position, his opportunity and output since, his contract status, his degree of establishment in the senior team, the quantity/quality of players competing for the same establishment, his being recruited from another state, the necessity to turn over at least a few players in any given year, the potential interest of rival clubs, the alternatives those clubs have - this all comes together to inform on whether he might be inclined to assess his options next year, and if so what we might realistically get should a trade eventuate.

If you don't want to contemplate Durdin's draft value, then simply don't respond to posts discussing it, either in writing or via emoji. I'll admit I dislike the dislike emoji. I typically only use it when I feel a poster is being disingenuous. I think if you disagree with someone's view to the point of responding with said emoji, you should make the effort to engage in some kind of discussion with them whereby you put forward your own views.

I'm only "banging on" here because your accusations of disrespect land so far from the mark as to warrant it. How is anyone, you or your "significant group", considering "disrespectful" the logical evaluation of a player's potential trade value in a List Management thread? And how is it any more respectful of you to try and paint me as disrespecting a player instead of offering your own considered views on the subject, beyond lazy use of emojis and vague suggestions that you and your mates are somehow above discussing player valuation in a thread literally designed to house it.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Your going by stats for a player from poor system seasons, I think you are grossly underestimating him.

I'm not "going by stats", I'm going by about a dozen different factors of which output to date is one. I have high hopes for Durdin, he has some really good intangibles that I think put him in really good stead. But he is a forward 50 player on a list that just recruited 3 more forward 50 players. If he cements a spot in the 22 it's because he's earned it off his own boot, and credit to him. And if he can't/doesn't get through that logjam it's not because he's unworthy, but because it's a cutthroat industry whereby 50% of players on a list aren't getting picked each week. But that doesn't mean his potential trade value increases, the reality is that it gives the guy on the other side of the table a better position, as we saw with Dow (another player I was hoping to keep and see succeed, but who, once he made the decision to leave, was never going to secure us a massive trade bounty, no matter how admirable his talent or character).

 

[Gethelred]

I mean...

This is the List Management thread, concerned with the rather cold business of list turnover and acquisition. You're going to be reading things in here that are vaguely disrespectful towards our players, as other clubs are hardly going to be excessively respectful towards them in trading; they're not going to tear them down, but you're not going to see good value in trades if all you do is fluff them up pre trade.

In a general sense, player input is critiqued in here, reduced to raw numbers or output. Intangibles be damned; opposition clubs aren't going to care if you're not putting AFL levels of performance on the park.

It's why I don't post in here very much. I don't like the proprietary (re, Supercoach) attitude some have towards our players, so I choose not to read it. This is an open forum to members, and it's their right to post here in that fashion; it isn't for me, as a poster or moderator, to condemn them for their use of the forum in this way.

People trying to police what others can say or can argue in here, though, falls within our purview.