List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[Stamos]

Maybe Fogarty’s lack of goals aren’t a result of skill/ability, but of less opportunity.

Because he plays a mid/forward pressure role, not the role of a crumbing small forward…

He had 8 disposals inside 50 on Friday, and across 3 games this year he's had 15 disposals inside 50.
For 1 single shot, from a free kick, 15 meters out.

That (along with what we all see) suggests a lack of kicking ability, or lack of confidence in kicking ability.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

That's ok but you've largely highlighted that you don't require an elite small forward to win a flag, which was my point, that it is nice to have but not essential.
Pickett, Fritsch and McCarthy are also essentially undersized lead-up players rather than traditional smalls IMO.
Of those names listed, the ones considered elite have largely ended up in the losers column.

For argument's sake, who was the last premiership team to win without a gun small forward?

 

[Manhattanite]

He had 8 disposals inside 50 on Friday, and across 3 games this year he's had 15 disposals inside 50.
For 1 single shot, from a free kick, 15 meters out.

That (along with what we all see) suggests a lack of kicking ability, or lack of confidence in kicking ability.

He’s also had 14 score involvements this season which suggests he’s setting his teammates up - as he should be. There’s been games in the last 18 in which his tackles have led to at least 3 goals per game for us so he’s had real impact if not off his own boot.




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[Stamos]

He’s also had 14 score involvements this season which suggests he’s setting his teammates up - as he should be. There’s been games in the last 18 in which his tackles have led to at least 3 goals per game for us so he’s had real impact if not off his own boot.

My post was in response to a point about a lack of goals.

I don't think anyone is criticising his pressure or score involvements or assists. He's been playing some great footy in the first 3 games this year.
But he is a forward, and goal kicking very much seems to be a weakness in his game.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Here are some of the recent small to mid forwards who have played in premiership teams that I reckon might have failed your "not up to premiership class" test;

Tory Dickson (Dogs)
Clay Smith (Dogs)
Jason Castagna (Tigers)
Dan Butler (Tigers)
Jason Cripps (Eagles)
Mark Hutchins (Eagles)
Charlie Spargo (Demons)
Jack Ginnivan (Pies)

So there's two things. Premiership teams are not made up of 23 world beaters. Generally there is a tier of guns, not far off guns, solid contributors, role players etc. Generally the premiership team is the one where there is the smallest gap from player 23 to player 1.

Shane Ellen and Cale Morton were key players in premiership teams. Which means that you don't know that players are premiership class till they go into that furnace.

You are not comparing apples with apples Most of those players are better than Owies and Fogarty and some had class crumbers embedded in their fwd lines to compensate for them

 

[BlueJet]

For argument's sake, who was the last premiership team to win without a gun small forward?

Collingwood.
I suppose it comes down to who you consider to be a gun/elite etc.

 

[Stamos]

Collingwood.
I suppose it comes down to who you consider to be a gun/elite etc.

You don't rate Didak?
Or you're talking 1990?

 

[Coops93]

Maybe Fogarty’s lack of goals aren’t a result of skill/ability, but of less opportunity.

Because he plays a mid/forward pressure role, not the role of a crumbing small forward…

That's why I differentiated Lincoln McCarthy with Cameron. I think Fogs could play the McCarthy role but we still need the Cameron on the other side.

 

[BlueJet]

You don't rate Didak?
Or you're talking 1990?

Who do you consider elite from last year's side?

 

[Coops93]

That's ok but you've largely highlighted that you don't require an elite small forward to win a flag, which was my point, that it is nice to have but not essential.
Pickett, Fritsch and McCarthy are also essentially undersized lead-up players rather than traditional smalls IMO.
Of those names listed, the ones considered elite have largely ended up in the losers column.
I'm confident that we can get enough from Durdin, Motlop, Owies and Fantasia to get the job done.

Depends how you define "elite" for a small forward I suppose. A a 40 goal season from Elliott must be touching on it. In combination with Hill who had 33, both comfortably more than any of our smalls have had in a season. 53 Goals from Stengle is elite in their GF yr. So I'm not sure about the losing sides being better.

Either way you look it or want to define it, a couple of role playing 20-25 goal a season smalls isn't close to what the finalists are putting together. If we had a combination of 40 and 25 our forwardline is substantially more portent than it is.

 

[Stamos]

Who do you consider elite from last year's side?

hmmmmm

The votes that saw Hill cap off fairy tale Grand Final with Norm Smith Medal

Bobby Hill is the 2023 Norm Smith medallist after a blistering four-goal Grand Final display.

www.sen.com.au

 

[TENACIOUS]

He had 8 disposals inside 50 on Friday, and across 3 games this year he's had 15 disposals inside 50.
For 1 single shot, from a free kick, 15 meters out.

That (along with what we all see) suggests a lack of kicking ability, or lack of confidence in kicking ability.

Stats don’t paint the whole picture… Were his inside 50 stats… Kicks or handballs? out in space or in congestion?

No doubt he struggles with penetration in his kicking, but his kicking efficiency's at 61.1% is not too bad. Think his role is to win the contest and get it out to our goal kickers, hence his elite score involvement stats…

Can’t see him being dropped anytime soon…

 

[marleyblue]

hmmmmm

The votes that saw Hill cap off fairy tale Grand Final with Norm Smith Medal

Bobby Hill is the 2023 Norm Smith medallist after a blistering four-goal Grand Final display.

www.sen.com.au

BoG in the GF and a great finals series but he kicked a total of 25 goals in 22 games in the regular season and then stepped up and kicked 8 in three finals. Was a nothing player at GWS and I doubt anyone was calling him elite until after that GF performance.

Motlop kicked 19 goals in 9 games after his stint in the 2s last year - no reason why he can't step up a level and have a break out 3rd year - will change our forward line dynamics and make us much more dangerous.

 

[Stamos]

Stats don’t paint the whole picture… Were his inside 50 stats… Kicks or handballs? out in space or in congestion?

No doubt he struggles with penetration in his kicking, but his kicking efficiency's at 61.1% is not too bad. Think his role is to win the contest and get it out to our goal kickers, hence his elite score involvement stats…

Can’t see him being dropped anytime soon…

I can't see him getting dropped anytime soon either, and he shouldn't be on current form, but that's not the point.

And no, stats don't paint the whole picture, but they do paint a picture.
15 inside 50 possessions for a single shot certainly tells us something.

I'm not going to go back to watch every possession, but across all his possessions this year, he's been more uncontested than contested.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Collingwood.
I suppose it comes down to who you consider to be a gun/elite etc.

Elliot kicked 40 goals and averaged more tackles inside 50 than our entire list other than Fogarty. Whether thats "elite" or not is really not important, it's still miles better than any smalls we have.

 

[BlueJet]

Depends how you define "elite" for a small forward I suppose. A a 40 goal season from Elliott must be touching on it. In combination with Hill who had 33, both comfortably more than any of our smalls have had in a season. 53 Goals from Stengle is elite in their GF yr. So I'm not sure about the losing sides being better.

Either way you look it, a couple of role playing 25 goal a season smalls isn't close to what the finalists are putting together.

Pretty much. For me elite = consistently top few in their position.
IMO using stats alone is problematic as Hill, Pickett & Elliott would have significantly more ball going their way due to the absence of quality talls. Even still, Owies averaged a fraction more goals per game than Hill and a fraction less than Elliott & I expect improvement to come from Motlop, Fantasia & Durdin. Happy to agree to disagree but I don't see it as a drastic need from a LM standpoint.

 

[BlueJet]

Elliot kicked 40 goals and averaged more tackles inside 50 than our entire list other than Fogarty.

refer above.
The differential (w/Owies) per game is .1 goal and .5 tackles.

 

[branedotorg]

For argument's sake, who was the last premiership team to win without a gun small forward?

Who was the last premier to have two genuinely elite tall forwards?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Who was the last premier to have two genuinely elite tall forwards?

Eh Geelong?

 

[Soapy V]

Re: Fogarty. He also contributes valuable midfield minutes as well.

Would I like him to kick a few more goals? Yes, I would but he brings a lot to the table that suits our game style and needs

 

[branedotorg]

Eh Geelong?

Good answer actually

 

[Stamos]

BoG in the GF and a great finals series but he kicked a total of 25 goals in 22 games in the regular season and then stepped up and kicked 8 in three finals. Was a nothing player at GWS and I doubt anyone was calling him elite until after that GF performance.

Motlop kicked 19 goals in 9 games after his stint in the 2s last year - no reason why he can't step up a level and have a break out 3rd year - will change our forward line dynamics and make us much more dangerous.

Absolutely, I think Motlop in will make a big difference to our forwardline.
I'm also pretty bullish on Durdin and/or Fantasia hitting their straps. That would transform what we've seen the first 3 weeks.

 

[branedotorg]

Eh Geelong?

My point was though equalisation means no team has a perfect 22, there's always some compromise and you need to make your players and system more efficient than the rest.

 

[BlueJet]

hmmmmm

The votes that saw Hill cap off fairy tale Grand Final with Norm Smith Medal

Bobby Hill is the 2023 Norm Smith medallist after a blistering four-goal Grand Final display.

www.sen.com.au

Hmm indeed..

 

[BlueJet]

BoG in the GF and a great finals series but he kicked a total of 25 goals in 22 games in the regular season and then stepped up and kicked 8 in three finals. Was a nothing player at GWS and I doubt anyone was calling him elite until after that GF performance.

Motlop kicked 19 goals in 9 games after his stint in the 2s last year - no reason why he can't step up a level and have a break out 3rd year - will change our forward line dynamics and make us much more dangerous.

Exactly.