List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[Arr0w]

Way I look at it, how many small forwards from flag winning sides, are considered elite before their teams flag

Castagna won 3 flags, has he ever been considered elite before or after these flags?

Our xfactor is probably more likely to be Harry, Charlie, Martin and our small forwards are just reliable role players

But, plenty of upside left in Mots and Durdin

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Well I feel like it's consensus that we'd like a really dangerous and dynamic small/mid sized fwd to add to our mix if Motlop and Durdin can't put it together this season to compliment the likes of Fogarty whos more a pressure type.

The real question is who are they and how do we get one with the Campo twins both due this year?

Stengle the only one I can see possible, purely because of his free agent status

 

[Soapy V]

If fit and playing to potential I would back this forward line to win a flag.

HF: E.Hollands McKay Fogarty
F: Martin Curnow Motlop (Owies Durdin or Fantasia)

It's a great mix of different skills both offensively and defensively. Great in the air and on the ground
Assisted by Cripps Kennedy going forward along with mids like Walsh Cerra Acres that can kick goals it looks good to me and hard to stop

PS I really believe Motlop will become the X factor gun small forward we need

 

[Stamos]

Castagna won 3 flags, has he ever been considered elite before or after this flags?

Having 6 shots at goal in a grand final, to score a total of 5 points, is some kind of elite.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Carlton will never have a 50 goal a year small forward whilst we have Charlie and Harry kicking 120+ between them.

We do need to continue developing more avenues to goal but no side will ever be perfect. Would like to see how we look with Martin and Motlop first, I think they are more than enough and contribute 20-30 each, but then the question becomes can we rely on them over 25 games of a season.

 

[marleyblue]

A couple of things to also consider - as we become a more dominant team we should hopefully score more heavily, allowing more goals for the smalls like we saw against North. We averaged 11.8 goals per game last year - 2 goals a game less than the lions and 1.5 less than the pies. This year (off a very small sample size) we are up to 15.3 goals per game and our new improved turnover game, combined with attacking through the corridor should result in higher scores. Successful teams often make role players (and spuds) look great because of the structure, team plan and dominance of gun players.

Motlop and Durdin are our most dynamic smalls and both are young and inexperienced. Compared to Bobby Hill who had a breakout year in 2023 - Motlop was drafted 3 years later and Durdin two. Both have played around half the number of games as Hill and Durdin has been plagued by injury. There is no reason why one or both can't take huge steps forward over the next couple of years.

 

[Coops93]

Way I look at it, how many small forwards from flag winning sides, are considered elite before their teams flag

Castagna won 3 flags, has he ever been considered elite before or after these flags?

Our xfactor is probably more likely to be Harry, Charlie, Martin and our small forwards are just reliable role players

But, plenty of upside left in Mots and Durdin

With Dustin Martin spending fair amounts of time in the forwardline making a big difference. Understandable that he's not the norm and is a great for a reason, but he was arguably the best ground ball forward in the comp at the time and kicked 2 bags of 4 in Grand Finals, so Costagna wasn't ever supposed to be the star small fwd.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Way I look at it, how many small forwards from flag winning sides, are considered elite before their teams flag

Castagna won 3 flags, has he ever been considered elite before or after these flags?

Our xfactor is probably more likely to be Harry, Charlie, Martin and our small forwards are just reliable role players

But, plenty of upside left in Mots and Durdin

I would go as far to say that the Richmond small forwards were ridiculed as being sub standard prior to them going on their flag run. Jason Castagna kicked 9 goals in 12 finals including 2 in 3 premiership wins. Dan Butler kicked 1 in his solitary grand final. . Josh Caddy and Jacob Townsend were also widely ridiculed as being sub standard mid forwards (Caddy was at his 3rd club and Townsend ended up playing at 4 clubs) prior to playing in premierships. Josh Caddy kicked one goal in his 2 premiership wins. Jacob Townsend kicked 2 in his one premiership win.

The Tigers were able to win three flags with two really good key forwards (not great but really good) and a dynamic bull that could really turn it on in the big games backed up by a motley collection of average mid and small forwards and a distinctive game plan (get it in quick regardless of quality and do whatever you can to slow it down going the other way).

Not saying that we can do that but to suggest that we can't have success due to the lack of quality of our small forwards (whilst having better key forwards than the Tigers had) seems incorrect to me.

 

[BlueJet]

Carlton will never have a 50 goal a year small forward whilst we have Charlie and Harry kicking 120+ between them.

We do need to continue developing more avenues to goal but no side will ever be perfect. Would like to see how we look with Martin and Motlop first, I think they are more than enough and contribute 20-30 each, but then the question becomes can we rely on them over 25 games of a season.

I completely agree.

Where I'm especially interested in seeing growth is in who can step up and kick 2 or 3 in a tight game to get us over the line aside from the two primary targets.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

We can admire Fogarty and Owies endeavour and they are our current best small fwd options, but let's not delude ourselves they are premiership class. They don't crumb goals like a bobby hill, charlie cameron and stengle. We need them to cash in on the crumbs Charlie and Harry create if or when we play off in the grandfinal

Charlie Cameron is good despite a few yips in front of goal but Owies kicked the same amount of goals as Stengle last year from fewer games. He's such a reliable shot at goal.

Fog I'll admit is really bad. Can't kick over a jam tin and misses a lot even when in range. It's a sign of the times that he's valued as a small forward despite only kicking 4 goals all of last season.

 

[DangerousD]

Just like Fish was a surprise last year, we will probably have another, players want to play and if guys are spending most of the season in the 2s when they are 4-5 years in to their career, then most will test the water.

Kemp has a right in this spot imo, Carrol as well and there will be a small forward by seasons end that is on the outer.

Not many are critical of Fisher, Dow or Setterfield, if players aren’t getting games, they will look elsewhere.

 

[Burgers45]

As a good small crumbing forward, I was disappointed we didn't have a crack at Liam Henry last trade period. Sos liked him so much he unsuccessfully tried to get him to us in his draft year. He was elite in his junior years. Was played out of position at Freo, looked the goods in his early games in the forward line with StKilda. Ah, well, we missed out again.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Maybe.

We've got our first and second rounders, and we've essentially swapped our third and fourth rounders for fourth rounders from GC, Freo and WB.

Hard to judge this early, but after compo picks and the like I'd have us with something like Pick 18 (Car R1), Pick 40 (Car R2), Pick 66 (WB R4), Pick 68 (GC R4) and Pick 70 (Freo R4).

A third rounder for Cunners (assuming his contract places him in the top 70% of players, which seems reasonable to assume) would be around Pick 58.

We then need to assume we'd probably need to trade some of these picks early, given we're unlikely to have a bunch of open list spots. Picks 58, 66 and 68 could get us up around 50-52 if another club needs some points. Head to the draft with 18, 40, 50.

I reckon our first rounder covers Ben, maybe a slight downgrade on our second at most.

Let's say it gets to the early 30s, no bid for Lucas yet, we could offer up Pick 40, with a swap of future picks in the other club's favour, to get another bite in the 30-35 range before matching a bid for Lucas with Pick 50 and some carry-over points in the third round next year. Can even trade out a late future pick for some extra points this year on draft night - gets to Pick 40, there's bound to be a few clubs who've seen players they were considering get snapped up earlier than expected, and are then open to trading a third rounder for a future third or something of that nature.

We'd most likely try to trade up our first rounder to get ahead of wherever the first Campo is due to go. That may not be possible if his form warrants a pick closer to the top 10. Forecasting it now is pointless. He could go pick 3 or 43. Depends on how his SA games go.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I think we should use this season to decide on the best 2 small forward options that we already have + Fog for pressure, and cull the rest.
Wouldn't mind another one that is also an aerial threat like Elliott or even Bobby in the GF

 

[macky99]

Elliot kicked 40 goals and averaged more tackles inside 50 than our entire list other than Fogarty. Whether thats "elite" or not is really not important, it's still miles better than any smalls we have.

Elliot is a small marking forward, not a traditional small crumbing forward, a much better comparison would be Jack Martin, comparing him to Fogarty etc is ridiculous.

 

[BigFrizz36]

As a good small crumbing forward, I was disappointed we didn't have a crack at Liam Henry last trade period. Sos liked him so much he unsuccessfully tried to get him to us in his draft year. He was elite in his junior years. Was played out of position at Freo, looked the goods in his early games in the forward line with StKilda. Ah, well, we missed out again.

I doubt that we missed out. Doubtful that we had salary cap space to bring him over. Currently out for up to 6 weeks with a hammy and hasn't played more than 17 games in a season with only 7 games in 2022.

He's got some traits but if he was playing for us he would be the subject of a "why do we always recruit continually injured players" thread.

 

[katmanblue]

Maybe Fogarty’s lack of goals aren’t a result of skill/ability, but of less opportunity.

Because he plays a mid/forward pressure role, not the role of a crumbing small forward…

How dare you bring reason into this? This is football forum and there's no place for it here.

Sent from my SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Blue__Balls]

We'd most likely try to trade up our first rounder to get ahead of wherever the first Campo is due to go. That may not be possible if his form warrants a pick closer to the top 10. Forecasting it now is pointless. He could go pick 3 or 43. Depends on how his SA games go.

Can see that being a goal, but not sure how we do it without mortgaging next year's first or trading out a "best 22" player.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Fog I'll admit is really bad. Can't kick over a jam tin and misses a lot even when in range. It's a sign of the times that he's valued as a small forward despite only kicking 4 goals all of last season.

If you are judging Fog on his goals you haven’t got a clue.

FWIW
4.7 score involvements (2nd highest of our small forwards)
2.0 goal assists (highest at the club)
4.7 I50’s (2nd highest at the club)

Of course he could improve by getting into more scoring positions, so could all of our small forwards, but this is a guy that literally transformed our shocking forward line after the bye last year and people want to turf him for some flashy X factor type who might kick a bag of 3 once a month.

Is he underrated because he is considered a Geelong reject? Or because Teague wrote him off and Voss didn’t give him a chance until we got absolutely desperate? Premierships are built on this type of player.

 

[macky99]

As a good small crumbing forward, I was disappointed we didn't have a crack at Liam Henry last trade period. Sos liked him so much he unsuccessfully tried to get him to us in his draft year. He was elite in his junior years. Was played out of position at Freo, looked the goods in his early games in the forward line with StKilda. Ah, well, we missed out again.

Alot of people on here are forgetting Motlop was a relatively high draft choice and is still only 20.
He has alot of upside and expect him to be a quality small forward, yet to play a game this season due to injury.
l would expect him to be our best small forward, but no reason why Durdin & Owies cannot be solid contributors.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Well I feel like it's consensus that we'd like a really dangerous and dynamic small/mid sized fwd to add to our mix if Motlop and Durdin can't put it together this season to compliment the likes of Fogarty whos more a pressure type.

The real question is who are they and how do we get one with the Campo twins both due this year?

Stengle the only one I can see possible, purely because of his free agent status

Elijah Hollands / Moir ideally. If we really go down that path then maybe go for Hayward.

If you are judging Fog on his goals you haven’t got a clue.

FWIW
4.7 score involvements (2nd highest of our small forwards)
2.0 goal assists (highest at the club)
4.7 I50’s (2nd highest at the club)

Of course he could improve by getting into more scoring positions, so could all of our small forwards, but this is a guy that literally transformed our shocking forward line after the bye last year and people want to turf him for some flashy X factor type who might kick a bag of 3 once a month.

Is he underrated because he is considered a Geelong reject? Or because Teague wrote him off and Voss didn’t give him a chance until we got absolutely desperate? Premierships are built on this type of player.

1st in the league for tackles inside 50.
8th in the league for tackles inside 50 while only playing half a season last year.

 

[Stamos]

but this is a guy that literally transformed our shocking forward line after the bye last year

It was Fog, was it?
Nothing to do with Martin, who came back the week before? Or Cunners, who came back that same Gold Coast game? Or Motlop, who came back and starred in our 4th win of the turn-around after having a break and getting his fitness and energy up?

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

It was Fog, was it?
Nothing to do with Martin, who came back the week before? Or Cunners, who came back that same Gold Coast game? Or Motlop, who came back and starred in our 4th win of the turn-around after having a break and getting his fitness and energy up?

Of course they all contributed to the rise playing together for the first time in a while. But let’s not pretend Martin, Motlop and to a lesser extent Cuners haven’t been key parts to the side when it was underperforming in the past.

Fog has a win rate of 60% since joining the club. Carlton have won 52% of games over that period. It is clear he makes us a better team. None of our other forwards can pressure like he does and if they could they’d probably kick half the goals.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

1st in the league for tackles inside 50.
8th in the league for tackles inside 50 while only playing half a season.

I would argue he is already an elite small forward, or at least an elite pressure forward. Not everyone needs to be the goal kicker and not many are Cyril or Eddie who can do it all.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

I'm not sure that is true really. Dangerous small forwards are something found in just about every grand final team in recent memory.

Geelong won with Stengle playing a season of career best footy.
Collingwood won with Elliott and Hill who dominated
Richmond won with an army of small forwards
Melbourne had Pickett kick 40 goals in their prem season, along with Fritsch - more medium size but still.

Even losing grand final teams have had them
Lions with Charlie Cameron and McCarthy (more the pressure type, like a Fogarty but with a bit more big play ability)
Going back Adelaide with Betts
Sydney with Papley

Consistent and score threatening small forwards is a common part found in Grand Final teams. Not many win with just a couple role playing pressure smalls who aren't dangerous scoring threats. I think Fogarty is solid, but alongside him we need someone capable of turning in 35-40 goals.

An x-Factor small forward would be huge for us. Hopefully that's Motlop though he's not shown that consistency yet.

Counter point - none of those aforementioned teams fielded a McKay/Curnow tandem. Jezza/Hawk the closest but neither offer much in terms of defensive pressure.

I definitely think our small forward stocks are an area of relative weakness within the side. But I dont think they are so bad as to be a barrier to a flag, particularly given they do their job defensively.