List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[Bletch]

Does that include rookies? Irish?

No, 3-5 new players plus Duffy & Monahan.

 

[Lukeblueboy]

What would it take to get smith for bulldogs
He is the exact type of midfielder we need
Or do we just not have the cap space
Our list is at the point of being really particular in who we bring in with the players we look like losing our depth is going to take a good hit this off season which really worries me if we are hit with injuries nexr yr

Agree! Would 100% love smith!
Not sure about this trade period tho? Maybe next

 

[Coops93]

Forgot ins and outs. Start with a clean sheet and pick the team.

However you word it someone is out at the expense of Williams

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

I’m a believer in One ruck because of the extra flexibility and run it gives us

I strongly believe TDK will go to another level next year and Pittonet will be back up. Not a bad position to be in.

Where we could really improve is McKay doing some ruckwork and/or Lemmey & O’Keefe stepping up

I rate both an

I’m a believer in One ruck because of the extra flexibility and run it gives us

I strongly believe TDK will go to another level next year and Pittonet will be back up. Not a bad position to be in.

Where we could really improve is McKay doing some ruckwork and/or Lemmey & O’Keefe stepping up

I rate both and although raw if they step up we are going to be much better

I'm still not really convinced that TDK is ready to be number 1 ruck yet. Though I think carrying both of them leaves us unbalanced. Unless one of Harry or Charlie adds a ruck chop out to their bows, I'd still be inclined to leave Pitt as number 1 and rotate TDK through the ruck and the forwards when resting Harry and Charlie

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

What's his injury reoccurring likelihood?

Cant be any worse than Cuningham and Marchbank who appear destined for another contract.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

What would it take to get smith for bulldogs
He is the exact type of midfielder we need
Or do we just not have the cap space
Our list is at the point of being really particular in who we bring in with the players we look like losing our depth is going to take a good hit this off season which really worries me if we are hit with injuries nexr yr

You would have to think our 1st this year and our 1st next year as bare minimum and still probably + more

 

[JustaBattler]

I tried to say something like this after the Swans game in support of bringing in Boyd but got told apparently our kicking efficiency and contested marks percentage didn't support the argument

He ahs the leg speed to play back pocket and a good kick on him - but it is the second kick that kills us - the one between the arcs

 

[LFTWNG11]

Cant be any worse than Cuningham and Marchbank who appear destined for another contract.

Phlip is no comparison to these guys, who have shown something at AFL level since day 1. Phlip looks mediocre at VFL level. Can’t believe he hasn’t been cut yet.

 

[WyntersGame_]

He’s 20 years old. Pretty sure even some of the all time greats were struggling to get games at that age

I struggle to see what others do in Carroll. He has never had a game where I've gone that is something we can build on. I think he's a delisting next year.

He maybe young but there other players who at that age showed more and now people want them traded. Maybe something clicks with him next year but I just see a VFL player when I watch him and an average one at that.

‘IF’ Fully fit don’t underestimate the difference Zac Williams makes next year.


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I hope we aren't getting ahead of ourselves with him especially with talk of moving him into the midfield.

It may have been the lack of fitness but he failed miserably when he was there when he came across. He has been his most deadly off Half Back and I'd love him in the team there next year.

Maybe move Boyd into the wing position so he doesnt come out the team and continues his drive. I'd almost prefer that

I was a Constable fan, but when you can see a lack of improvement in strengths and weaknesses from junior footy, you reassess a situation honestly

Thats a pretty harsh comparison on Dow. It's obvious to all Dow improved 10 fold in his weaknesses this year. I even thought the last few games of his really highlighted this by getting to contests and intercepting the ball via contested marks.

Not saying there's not more improvement to be had but I think saying he has lacked improvement is a harsh statement

 

[marleyblue]

Who's going out for him? Boyd? Though he was good in the final

There's a lot to play out before R1 including whether Williams even slots back into the backline or maybe he is viewed as the answer on HFF rotating through the midfield.

Boyd looked the goods last week (and earlier in the season) and hopefully takes another step next year and Cowan will also improve. Cincotta looks the most likely to be under pressure but given he's only had the one year in a professional environment, who knows what a full preseason will do for him?

We have a good list and there should be plenty of competition across all lines...

 

[Blue Reaper]

Set aside everyone's opinion here regarding Dow and absorb the opinions with people entrusted within clubland

Dow has been a fringe/injury depth player for a couple years, has been offered a short-term low salary contract and opposition clubs (most of which finished below us) aren't jumping over each other in a bidding war to obtain his services

Whether Dow stays or goes, I hope he can carve out some sort of career, even better become a best 22 player

Think our club's focus will be elsewhere to extract the slight improvement needed for next year

I have a different view to you on Dow. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is the highlighted bit.

 

[Arr0w]

Thats a pretty harsh comparison on Dow. It's obvious to all Dow improved 10 fold in his weaknesses this year.

Obvious to all, would be your opinion

I even thought the last few games of his really highlighted this by getting to contests and intercepting the ball via contested marks.

How many intercept contested marks did he take

Not saying there's not more improvement to be had but I think saying he has lacked improvement is a harsh statement

I will be clearer

Dow has made slight progress on his deficiencies, but not enough to warrant being anywhere close to a best 22 lock when we have the majority of our mids on the park

And can't see that changing if he is at another club

 

[gbatman]

Gman, you seem to have gone full circle on Voss and the coaching group as well as fixated on Dow

I can understand the sentiment before we started our run, but to use the term "lucky" to describe our 2nd half of the season, winning two finals, seems very strange

We didn't lose against Brisbane due to not picking Dow, nor was it due to the overall pace of our midfield group, especially considering our wins 2nd half of the year

We went from a winning well balanced side with the right mix in the middle of the ground and in defence and when finals hit we threw our cards up in the air and did it differently. We went back to what we were doing in the first half of the season in regards to team structure and what followed was stagnant ball movement.

Charlie Curnow went into finals in red hot form, he could hardly kick a goal. I tell you what, that's not on him it's on the team's in ability to run the ball, move the ball and feed the forwards.

We lost to Brisbane because we were far too slow and immobile around the ball and on the half back line. We got out run massively.

We took tractors to a car race and got run rings around us.

It wasn't the same team structure that turned our season around. It was the same team structure that had us 15th on the ladder mid way through.

We were a better team when we had Dow in the middle who has pace and agility and Fisher at half back generating run and carry and direct play than what we presented in finals with 1 running defender and big heavy blokes in the middle and Walsh. Lack of agility in close was exposed but what I thought was worse was the lack of rebound. Plenty of teams have won flags being average clearance sides but being great on the outside and great with their ball movement, especially off half back.

We can shut our eyes and pretend we went into finals well coached and with a great team when really we didn't. We changed what was working and what was winning games for us. We got lucky the first two weeks then played a team you couldn't beat on luck alone.

We would have been better against the Lions with another runner in defence, not Just Boyd but Fisher as well and Dow on the ball. Take out a very cooked Cincotta who was providing some run and dash but last month of footy wasn't. Keep Dow in who was in real good form with his clearance and ball winning. Probably best agility in our side in the middle there and break away speed. Put Cerra half forward and part time mid, Cerra had come back and was struggling to run out games. Put him in the Fogarty role. Do this and make it more about run than just solely focused on contested ball and we get really really close to Brisbane IMO.

I was happy when we were playing a well balanced midfield with big heavy bodies and some pace and agility as well and we had guys in defence who could run with the ball, be aggressive and hit difficult targets. I thought we turned a corner then. When we lost those traits and went back to our old methods which had failed us, that lose me.

So keep Dow and we make the 2024 grand final.

Yea na.

More leg speed and more agility in the middle. More leg speed, footy smarts to find the ball, run and carry and good kicking from out half backs and the Brisbane game is 50/50. Not saying we would have won it but that was the difference. A bit of speed and agility in the middle and good run off half back was all that was in that game. Cincotta out for Fisher. Boyd comes in against GWS in the last round and settles in and Cerra replaces Fogarts as the forward/mid and Dow, who was working very very well for us, stays in. I think there would be a good chance we would be watching Carlton in the grand final this week. I think our team selection and obsession with big bodies and contested ball cost us a chance. Maybe not the win but it cost us a chance at playing in a grand final.

Our game plan. Our team structure is OUTDATED! It wasn't in the second half of the season. But first half and finals, it was the same slow as treacle team, same structure, same outdated game plan, same ball movement, same old forwards can't kick goals.

Yeah we choked. Should have kept our structure for the last month and a half. Beaten Sydney comfortably. Beaten Melbourne the same as we did in the home and away season with Dow and Fisher in who were amazingly not a problem and actually a strength and going in 50/50 against Brisbane and actually been good enough to keep the foot on the throat after being 5 goals up at quarter time.

Changing the team structure and how the team plays when it was winning and beating everyone back to what had failed us was ****ing stupid. Hope we learnt our lesson.

 

[Aphrodite]

Hey Aphrodite

For some reason Lore's Provisional 2023 AFL Draft Picks spreadsheet doesn't seem to be stickied at the top of the page.

BH

Added it to my OP but forgot to sticky the post.

Done now BH

 

[gbatman]

Set aside everyone's opinion here regarding Dow and absorb the opinions with people entrusted within clubland

Dow has been a fringe/injury depth player for a couple years, has been offered a short-term low salary contract and opposition clubs (most of which finished below us) aren't jumping over each other in a bidding war to obtain his services

Whether Dow stays or goes, I hope he can carve out some sort of career, even better become a best 22 player

Think our club's focus will be elsewhere to extract the slight improvement needed for next year

Whether he stays or goes, we need to find a midfielder with those qualities or we aren't going to go too far. We border on too slow and too immobile in there.

Those are the very traits modern football uses to generate pressure and good ball movement. Modern football is all about speed and intensity which is driven on good leg speed and agility. Which we don't get from Cripps, Kennedy, Hewett and even Cerra brought none of that when he came back later in the season.

Docherty, Dow and Walsh did. Docherty doing a shoulder and playing wing moved him out. Dow dropped. Walsh, well teams figured him out, block his forward run and run through stoppages, they don't have anyone else, that's how you stop Carlton.

We all have this idea that because Dow is not elite he can't be in a premiership midfield. Same with Fisher. It's not true. They have to play a role. Dow's role is to get 20-25 possessions, plenty of clearances and a bit of run and carry. Fisher's job is to keep his man quiet, get 20-30 possessions and be really damaging with possessions. They did that and were dropped for players who couldn't do what they were doing. So we went backwards. Not even the Coleman medalist could kick goals in that team.

Dow has been where he has been because he's been a slow developer. Not uncommon at all in footy, particularly with inside mids. The coach is the other part of why he has been fringe/depth.

Other sides will go past us very quickly if we do not adopt modern football game plans and structures.

Voss is obsessed with big bodies and contested ball. AFL football is more of an outside game and running game and more so now since the anti-congestion rules came in. That is what keeps killing us. He was forced to play Dow, forced to play Fisher and we beat some really good teams.

Then finals camed and the obsession with big slow immobile mids and defenders came back. I don't get it. Everyone is patting us on the back for making prelims, reality is we were lucky to win any of our finals. We did things a lot differently in finals and it failed.
A generational talent in Charlie Curnow who was fit and in red hot form could not even kick a goal, that's how bad we did things when we hit finals. Thursday came and we choked.

Form players out, fast players out. Out of form and unfit slow players in.

 

[WyntersGame_]

Obvious to all, would be your opinion


How many intercept contested marks did he take


I will be clearer

Dow has made slight progress on his deficiencies, but not enough to warrant being anywhere close to a best 22 lock when we have the majority of our mids on the park

And can't see that changing if he is at another club

I don't disagree on the best 22. I think at this moment the best "certainty" you could provide for him is that he's the SUB option

To say he's only made a slight improvement almost feels like your set in writing him off because he doesn't fit your narrative.

I remember a young 18- 20year old player who was exciting on attack when he came in but defensive acts were non existent outside the CB. I have seen enough this season to say he has improved and would be a great player to have, keeping in mind we have three players approaching their 30s in the midfield who play a crash and bash style on their body.

I dont know exact numbers but i remember moments in games where he came across and intercepted or spoiled an opposition player. I remember you commenting on it in the game day thread too.

I'll be VERY clear, at the start of the year I had him as wasted potential and a delisting at the end of the season. However I have seen improvement and I think the more games he played the clearer it became on what he had been working on and I wanted him to succeed.

I however know we disagree on the best midfield personnel. I don't like Kennedy and Hewitt in there together, individually I think they are best 22 players but I don't think they are the best mix playing together. Sometimes it's who gels the best rather than who you think should be in.

Your entitled to you opinion I just thought it was a harsh comparison. Constable never put in the hard work to improve and that showed. I don't think the same can be said for Dow

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

Added it to my OP but forgot to sticky the post.

Done now BH

Thanks again Aph

 

[Arr0w]

We went from a winning well balanced side with the right mix in the middle of the ground and in defence and when finals hit we threw our cards up in the air and did it differently. We went back to what we were doing in the first half of the season in regards to team structure and what followed was stagnant ball movement.

No we didn't, we just played stronger sides in finals

This so called better balanced and right midfield mix, won by a kick against the Demons H&A as it did in finals

Charlie Curnow went into finals in red hot form, he could hardly kick a goal. I tell you what, that's not on him it's on the team's in ability to run the ball, move the ball and feed the forwards.

It's on the whole team, not just one player

We lost to Brisbane because we were far too slow and immobile around the ball and on the half back line. We got out run massively.

Every side has lost to the Lions at the Gabba, they are a strong unit, even sides that have a so called quick midfield, so it's a fallacy

It was on the back of not sustaining pressure and not executing under pressure

We took tractors to a car race and got run rings around us.

Those tractors beat quicker sides 2nd half of the season

It wasn't the same team structure that turned our season around. It was the same team structure that had us 15th on the ladder mid way through.

The same team structure that started and ended the 2nd half run

We were a better team when we had Dow in the middle who has pace and agility and Fisher at half back generating run and carry and direct play than what we presented in finals with 1 running defender and big heavy blokes in the middle and Walsh.

Again, not factual

Dow has selective pace and Fisher struggles with defensive strength

Lack of agility in close was exposed but what I thought was worse was the lack of rebound. Plenty of teams have won flags being average clearance sides but being great on the outside and great with their ball movement, especially off half back.

Incorrect, most flag winning sides rate top 6 for contested ball and strong defensive profile

We can shut our eyes and pretend we went into finals well coached and with a great team when really we didn't. We changed what was working and what was winning games for us. We got lucky the first two weeks then played a team you couldn't beat on luck alone.

Any close win especially in finals can be considered lucky

We can either shut our eyes, pretend and continue to double down that Voss can't coach, or accept that we were 1 win away from a GF, when you and others wanted him sacked even after round 15

We would have been better against the Lions with another runner in defence, not Just Boyd but Fisher as well and Dow on the ball.

And we would have leaked more goals

Keep Dow in who was in real good form with his clearance and ball winning.

While turning over the ball and not adhering to defensive positioning

Probably best agility in our side in the middle there and break away speed.

I'd call it Russian roulette, miss and becomes ineffective

Put Cerra half forward and part time mid, Cerra had come back and was struggling to run out games. Put him in the Fogarty role. Do this and make it more about run than just solely focused on contested ball and we get really really close to Brisbane IMO.

Where have I seem this before, move countless magnets to fit in a fringe player.

Drop defender put Doc back, Walsh wing so Dow can play.

Coaching/team selection doesn't work that way

I was happy when we were playing a well balanced midfield with big heavy bodies and some pace and agility as well and we had guys in defence who could run with the ball, be aggressive and hit difficult targets. I thought we turned a corner then. When we lost those traits and went back to our old methods which had failed us, that lose me.

Again our run started and finished without the likes of Dow and Fisher. IMHO, we looked a better side without them and results reflected that

 

[azlou]

He ahs the leg speed to play back pocket and a good kick on him - but it is the second kick that kills us - the one between the arcs

And neither acres or Hollande helps us there

 

[Stamos]

And neither acres or Hollande helps us there

I think it will come with Hollands.
It's more a composure/decision making thing than a skill thing.

 

[Arr0w]

I don't disagree on the best 22. I think at this moment the best "certainty" you could provide for him is that he's the SUB option

Well he has a challenge in front of him

To say he's only made a slight improvement almost feels like your set in writing him off because he doesn't fit your narrative.

Again, I have no narrative or bias, just my balanced opinion, you like others only see strengths and no weaknesses

I remember a young 18- 20year old player who was exciting on attack when he came in but defensive acts were non existent outside the CB. I have seen enough this season to say he has improved and would be a great player to have, keeping in mind we have three players approaching their 30s in the midfield who play a crash and bash style on their body.

His defensive acts/positioning is still poor, his work to stay in chains is poor he only uses his so called burst offensively

I dont know exact numbers but i remember moments in games where he came across and intercepted or spoiled an opposition player. I remember you commenting on it in the game day thread too.

He has taken 1 contested mark for the year, ONE and 4 intercept marks. No idea why you are using those stats to make a case for Dow

I'll be VERY clear, at the start of the year I had him as wasted potential and a delisting at the end of the season. However I have seen improvement and I think the more games he played the clearer it became on what he had been working on and I wanted him to succeed.

Already acknowledged he has made improvements, but not enough to warrant being best 22 at any club, IMHO

I however know we disagree on the best midfield personnel. I don't like Kennedy and Hewitt in there together, individually I think they are best 22 players but I don't think they are the best mix playing together. Sometimes it's who gels the best rather than who you think should be in.

Really getting boring comparing Dow to other players, let's just focus on Paddy

Your entitled to you opinion I just thought it was a harsh comparison.

Reality can be harsh

Constable never put in the hard work to improve and that showed.

How would you know a players work ethic,

I don't think the same can be said for Dow

Not sure why you are now comparing Dow to Constable

 

[smit_is]

gibbons is one of those names that in 12 months will never have existed, might already be there, other than the shadowy depths of blueseum

I was just saying the same thing about Gibbons last weekend.

Had pretty much forgotten about him already.

 

[WyntersGame_]

Well he has a challenge in front of him

Agree and based on an external view only of his last 2 year, I could see him taking that challenge

Again, I have no narrative or bias, just my balanced opinion, you like others only see strengths and no weaknesses

Lets agree to disagree on this one. I believe my previous posting history will show I have never put blinkers on about his weaknesses, merely stated I believe they could be improved on. I have also never stated he is best 22 to validate my opinion.

His defensive acts/positioning is still poor, his work to stay in chains is poor he only uses his so called burst offensively

Never mentioned anything about his burst of speed in my post but since you brought it up there are different types of speed, full throttle and those who use it in congestion or to sprint away from someone. They are different types of athletes and you will find that if you expect the spurt ones to go full throttle they wont be able to play out a full game or put in those defensive acts we want to happen because they are gassed. In my opinion his defensive acts /positioning have improved as per my previous post about the 18-20 kid being exciting going forward but lacking in defensive accountability going backwards. STILL has work to do but definitely improved upon where he use to be.

He has taken 1 contested mark for the year, ONE and 4 intercept marks. No idea why you are using those stats to make a case for Dow

As per my previous comment. I was using it to highlight the improvement he has made defensively. Without researching it myself id like to see how he compared with our other mids in this aspect. Taking into consideration a smaller game sample and playing time

Already acknowledged he has made improvements, but not enough to warrant being best 22 at any club, IMHO

We agree on this for Carlton, I'm not so sure about other clubs. Some clubs have a different mentality about strengths and weaknesses and will work to the strengths of a player rather than highlight the weaknesses on why they cant play them.

Really getting boring comparing Dow to other players, let's just focus on Paddy

Fair Enough, my comment was purely around us have differing of opinions on how our midfield should work.

Reality can be harsh

To use your words, "According to you" Or in this case your perceived reality / opinion

How would you know a players work ethic,

It was one of the reasons he was moved on from Geelong. He wanted games gifted to him and didn't want to put in the work to win a starting position

Not sure why you are now comparing Dow to Constable

In response to my original quoted post of yours, where you compared the two's lack of improvement........?

 

[Arr0w]

It was one of the reasons he was moved on from Geelong. He wanted games gifted to him and didn't want to put in the work to win a starting position

And you know this as being factual?

In response to my original quoted post of yours, where you compared the two's lack of improvement........?

I didn't compare the Constable to Dow, I replied to another poster who mentioned Constable

If I was making a correlation between the 2 players, it was merely highlighting the same sentiment, that some players struggle to improve significantly on their strengths and weaknesses from their junior years, to enable them from being best 22 players

Constable, Dow, Toumpass and many others

 

[Y Goat]

I think our midfield is mostly OK, as long as we're only playing one of Kennedy and Hewett most weeks.

The scope for improvement there comes from upgrading a couple of rotation options. Replace Fogarty with someone with a bit of burst/dash. Get Martin on ball a couple of times a quarter. Find a way to sneak Durdin and/or Motlop into the rotations. Get Williams back into the side

^ This