List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[WalshistheGOAT]

No overreaction required.

I've said more than 5 times on posts here that Kemp is being thrown to the wolves. At best he should be groomed for Newman when he retires where Kemp will get a weight adv/height adv.

Kemp cant hold down the number 1 or 2 lockdown role.

So that in itself is the point. Panic is ensuing because he cant hold his feet (for good reason). This pressures him and leads to mistakes elsewhere. His mistakes/nerves run over to others...

Only Saad and Weitering win consistent one-on-ones. Think everyone has forgotten the level required...e.g. Docherty before knees who pretty much won every contest.

Boyd did just have one bad game i agree. But in the scheme of defence; i dont really get his role. Lockdown but his one skills is elite kicking...or is it rebound but then he doesnt get in chains anywhere enough. The MC needs to solve this pjzzle and give them clear defined roles that suit the traits they have.

Each time i post, i reason it out and provide a theme/story. Don't over-react... simply just state your points clearly. i'll listen. And if they are good, i'll probably re-use them and claim them.

Boyd has the 3rd best one on one win rate in the competition.

Delist!!!

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I'm normally the one getting told off for over reactions in this very thread but seriously the melts after this game are next level.

We are 2nd on the ladder and widely seen to be one of the best teams in it. We played two bad games and have a couple of weaknesses on the list... So does everyone else bar Sydney right now.

When we play well we apply enough pressure to mask our flaws, we need to continue to do that. Not look for replacements within that don't exist or start experimenting with Kemp on a wing or forward with only a handful of games left in the season.

 

[JustOneTime]

Boyd has the 3rd best one on one win rate in the competition.

Delist!!!

It's a good point to a degree. What makes that stat less great is Boyd contests only half the one-on-one of his peers, e.g. Quaynor.

So it is a good and bad stat.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

It's a good point to a degree. What makes that stat less great is Boyd contests only half the one-on-one of his peers, e.g. Quaynor.

So it is a good and bad stat.

Quaynors a fat spud who plays for the biggest rabble in the league. Boyd has played his role perfectly fine for 90% of the season and while I'm sure most of us would love to get the ball in his hands more, clearly the coaches have decided that Newman, Saad and Gov are their preferred users out of defense.

If it's fitness or just a difference in their ability to defend, we don't know. Right now Boyds playing the lockdown role well and generally using it very well when he gets his turn to go.

 

[JustOneTime]

I'm normally the one getting told off for over reactions in this very thread but seriously the melts after this game are next level.

We are 2nd on the ladder and widely seen to be one of the best teams in it. We played two bad games and have a couple of weaknesses on the list... So does everyone else bar Sydney right now.

When we play well we apply enough pressure to mask our flaws, we need to continue to do that. Not look for replacements within that don't exist or start experimenting with Kemp on a wing or forward with only a handful of games left in the season.

We have been riding a crap team since 2001. We have had false dawns many a time. Cripps 200th, a strong list and a panic performance...surely posters are allowed to get pissed off a little.

I totally agree with your next two points. I dont want anyone personally delisted and i agree we can only mask it this year. But in this list mgmt thread, I post because I want austin to look at solving what I personally see as weak defenders. The act of defending....not other traits which they do have.

 

[JustOneTime]

Quaynors a fat spud

I think Austin would take him in a heartbeat. I think you should exit the list mgmt thread as you sincerely don't know talent when you see it.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I think Austin would take him in a heartbeat. I think you should exit the list mgmt thread as you sincerely don't know talent when you see it.

Says the guy who thinks we can't defend one on one yet we're ranked number 1 in the competition as a team for defending 1 on 1 contests. We get heavily scored against at stoppage, that's our biggest issue. From both centre bounce and defensive 50 stoppage.

And Quaynor is obviously a fine player, but hes horrendously out of form and packing too much weight. Pies fans are calling for his head on their board so I'd rather pass and address our actual issues as a team. Replacing Newman or Boyd with Quaynor isn't going to do bugger all to change our fortunes.

 

[RAPPA]

Says the guy who thinks we can't defend one on one yet we're ranked number 1 in the competition as a team for defending 1 on 1 contests. We get heavily scored against at stoppage, that's our biggest issue. From both centre bounce and defensive 50 stoppage.

And Quaynor is obviously a fine player, but hes horrendously out of form and packing too much weight. Pies fans are calling for his head on their board so I'd rather pass and address our actual issues as a team. Replacing Newman or Boyd with Quaynor isn't going to do bugger all to change our fortunes.

Quaynor will add some IQ to the defence

 

[jpfalvo]

Couldn't stop our 7 goals x 2 quarters against the Giants last week.

Or the 7 goal 2nd quarter by the dogs

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

 

[Benga]

I'm not saying to push them out the door but there is a chance one of those two seek a more regular role elsewhere. I think it's quite clear now that the 3 of Cerra, Hewett and Kennedy won't play in the same mix.

Not that either would be worth much, I'd prefer them stay for valuable depth unless we had another player lined up to take their spot who provides something else.

Trent Rivers tonight showed the exact 'type' of player we'd love to have roll through there, powerful and explosive but capable defensively and plays an accountable brand of footy when he needs to.

Cowan and Cincotta

 

[BluStreak]

we are ranked highly for Team defense but are ranked very low for one on one inside defense 50, at stoppages.
I believe we are eith 15th or 17th in this measure.
Which is our player losing contact with their opponent at stoppages

 

[BlueJet]

Our midfield is defensively porous and a lack of pace means we struggle to recover.
Our defence works well as a team however it is made up of players that are more suited to assertive roles than as a traditional stopper.
If we can get pressure on the ball, our defence can read & intercept which plays to their strengths a bit more than expecting them to win 1v1s.
A second KPD would be great & I've been slightly frustrated we haven't been developing one but behind a slow, selfish midfield, even the best defences can be cut to ribbons by unpressured f50 entries.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Our midfield is defensively porous and a lack of pace means we struggle to recover.
Our defence works well as a team however it is made up of players that are more suited to assertive roles than as a traditional stopper.
If we can get pressure on the ball, our defence can read & intercept which plays to their strengths a bit more than expecting them to win 1v1s.
A second KPD would be great & I've been slightly frustrated we haven't been developing one but behind a slow, selfish midfield, even the best defences can be cut to ribbons by unpressured f50 entries.

All good points. I still think top quality half forwards are a need, Fogarty is fantastic at applying pressure further a field which is why he's such a crucial cog in our line up but the rest are relatively ordinary in that part of the game. Giants had Jones, Daniels and Bedford up around stoppage the other week causing chaos when we had the ball and we couldn't handle it. Garcia, Switkowski, Konstanty etc might be options to help with that.

I just don't see a solution to the KPD conundrum without shifting a player or two to make room in the cap and have the picks to do so. Hopefully Austin has something up his sleeve for that

 

[BlueJet]

All good points. I still think top quality half forwards are a need, Fogarty is fantastic at applying pressure further a field which is why he's such a crucial cog in our line up but the rest are relatively ordinary in that part of the game. Giants had Jones, Daniels and Bedford up around stoppage the other week causing chaos when we had the ball and we couldn't handle it. Garcia, Switkowski, Konstanty etc might be options to help with that.

I just don't see a solution to the KPD conundrum without shifting a player or two to make room in the cap and have the picks to do so. Hopefully Austin has something up his sleeve for that

I completely agree mate. We need improvement in all 3 thirds & given where our list is at in terms of development & cost, addressing the forward/mid balance is the most logical & cost effective step from here.
I feel the expectation at times is that one or two are expected to do the lions share of the grunt work, the next stage in the evolution of our side as it matures is a willingness to sacrifice for one another.

 

[TENACIOUS]

I like the idea of getting a second KPD but think it’s a bit of a red herring, I see our defence struggling due to high numbers of inside 50s and the speed in which the entries come.

A second key defender helps stem the bleeding but doesn’t fix the cause.

So whether it’s the half forwards aren’t capable of stopping transition or our mids don’t defend, targeting players who address this issue, will help us more with our defence.

Our Midfield and Defence combine to be the 15th worst defence in the league… We are a 13 point per game, worse defence than last year…

We have the 2nd best attack in the league…
We are a 15 point per game, better attack than last year…

Clarke and Hamill need to combine to fix our defence before finals or history shows we will not win the flag…

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Our Midfield and Defence combine to be the 15th worst defence in the league… We are a 13 point per game, worse defence than last year…

We have the 2nd best attack in the league…
We are a 15 point per game, better attack than last year…

Clarke and Hamill need to combine to fix our defence before finals or history shows we will not win the flag…

Our half forward line also contribute to our defence, but given our issue is primarily a stoppage craft based one, I agree that it's on Clarke and Hamill to get the defensive stoppage set ups right ASAP.

 

[Coona Blues]

Our Midfield and Defence combine to be the 15th worst defence in the league… We are a 13 point per game, worse defence than last year…

We have the 2nd best attack in the league…
We are a 15 point per game, better attack than last year…

Clarke and Hamill need to combine to fix our defence before finals or history shows we will not win the flag…

I am less concerned with the statistics than most on here.

I believe Voss and the team have targeted 2025 as our serious flag assault. This is why we are currently changing up our combinations and structures, which has our supporter group spooked and angry. They will revert to the “one wood” soon enough, but are continuously working to upskill and improve the mental and physical fitness if the group.

We are subtly working a number of players through games, looking to having as many as possible fit and firing in September.

We have vulnerabilities, which make us gettable to pacy and disciplined teams. Our peripheral game is being grown, trying to limit reliance in the stars. There are a couple of clubs with the defensive tools to “blunt” Charlie and Harry in the forward half. We have had a number of small and medium forwards get off the chain at different times recently, as well as Crippa becoming a regular on the scorecard. Avenues are expanded. Not sure when it will be, but expect Charlie to “get on his bike” sometime soon, to change up the dynamics again.

Our stats aren’t perfect, but our best is irrepressible, we just have to be in the shape to bring it.

 

[ianh]

They'll either have to be young, old, out of favour or willing to take a massive pay cut for some reason. I don't know if there is a way to get one with our list the way it is without making a few changes and letting a player or two go.

Hopes of getting a quality one in their prime is 0 though.

Jeremy McGovern?

 

[JustOneTime]

Says the guy who thinks we can't defend one on one yet we're ranked number 1 in the competition as a team for defending 1 on 1 contests.

This is where it's hard to have an in-depth discussion. You quote Champion data's view on 1 on 1s to prove your point. You quote their stats, and you by default must agree with their definition of a one of one when rating players.

Situation #1 two games ago. Kemp stands Hogan. High ball comes in and both Kemp and Hogan run for the ball that ends up in a pack of 4+ players. As they run towards the ball, Kemps lighter body weight sees him fall over in the run towards the ball. Hogan takes the pack mark due to no close attention from Kemp. Others tried to get there in time but didnt.

Champion data dont record this as a defensive one on one loss. They don't record it anywhere but it is particularly relevant for Kemp who is giving up so much weight (and scores). And over a 2 season sample - to the eye test as that is all we have.

I personally tihink above are one on one losses. Why? Before that play is initiated Kemp is accountable to stop Hogan on that play. To get a fist to the ball. He failed. Newman/others arent 'directly' accountable because they are marking other players so may be able to help but if they dont, it is falling to Kemp in his one on one battle to get there.

To understand whether Kemp is a good player defensively this is not being recorded anywhere by champion data. It is just the eye test that records this.

Situation #2 vs GWS. Late in the game a GWS small takes a mark 60 metres out. Every man and his dog knows he is 'most likely' going to the top of the square because he cant make the distance. Kemp and Hogan on the goal line. Kemp gets caught flat footed on Hogan and Hogan pushes off him and runs 10metres to the top of the square and takes an 'uncontested' mark. This is not recorded by champion data as a one on one loss because Kemp went backwards and didnt get to the flight of the ball. BUT it is a one on one loss in my books. Got caught napping; got caught flat footed.

Most of these contest losses are because the MC are playing Kemp in a role he doesnt have the weight class to succeed in. The above two types of losses are happening a lot going back 2 seasons. It is also why as soon as Marchbank got ready last season they typically played him over Kemp because they need to solve this problem. This year they have given up on Marchbank (no choice due to injury history) as a preference but it was there last year because of Kemp falling over/misreading plays.

This is probably where you go..i trust CD's view of one on ones, not yours. I can accept that. I just have a different view that adds a layer of more detail than CD does.

I have to reiterate. I like Kemp but feel he should be groomed to replace a Newman type. Lower weight class; less falling over. I'm just highlighting a common problem that occurs defensively and Austin sort of needs to address.

 

[GenYBlue]

I am less concerned with the statistics than most on here.

I believe Voss and the team have targeted 2025 as our serious flag assault. This is why we are currently changing up our combinations and structures, which has our supporter group spooked and angry. They will revert to the “one wood” soon enough, but are continuously working to upskill and improve the mental and physical fitness if the group.

We are subtly working a number of players through games, looking to having as many as possible fit and firing in September.

We have vulnerabilities, which make us gettable to pacy and disciplined teams. Our peripheral game is being grown, trying to limit reliance in the stars. There are a couple of clubs with the defensive tools to “blunt” Charlie and Harry in the forward half. We have had a number of small and medium forwards get off the chain at different times recently, as well as Crippa becoming a regular on the scorecard. Avenues are expanded. Not sure when it will be, but expect Charlie to “get on his bike” sometime soon, to change up the dynamics again.

Our stats aren’t perfect, but our best is irrepressible, we just have to be in the shape to bring it.

I'm very concerned if this is true.

NOTHING is guaranteed. We could have an avalanche of injuries next year or our form could fluctuate too much and miss out on finals.

These things, as well as players being forced into retirement through injury or requesting trades, could also happen in the years after that.

We're in a genuine position to steal a flag this year and we should be behaving as if that's the goal rather than potentially throwing away a qualifying final at home.

 

[Stamos]

We're in a genuine position to steal a flag this year

Steal?
Nonsense. We are (or at least should be) genuine contenders.

 

[Jacks Seething Rage]

This is where it's hard to have an in-depth discussion. You quote Champion data's view on 1 on 1s to prove your point. You quote their stats, and you by default must agree with their definition of a one of one when rating players.

Situation #1 two games ago. Kemp stands Hogan. High ball comes in and both Kemp and Hogan run for the ball that ends up in a pack of 4+ players. As they run towards the ball, Kemps lighter body weight sees him fall over in the run towards the ball. Hogan takes the pack mark due to no close attention from Kemp. Others tried to get there in time but didnt.

Champion data dont record this as a defensive one on one loss. They don't record it anywhere but it is particularly relevant for Kemp who is giving up so much weight (and scores). And over a 2 season sample - to the eye test as that is all we have.

I personally tihink above are one on one losses. Why? Before that play is initiated Kemp is accountable to stop Hogan on that play. To get a fist to the ball. He failed. Newman/others arent 'directly' accountable because they are marking other players so may be able to help but if they dont, it is falling to Kemp in his one on one battle to get there.

To understand whether Kemp is a good player defensively this is not being recorded anywhere by champion data. It is just the eye test that records this.

Situation #2 vs GWS. Late in the game a GWS small takes a mark 60 metres out. Every man and his dog knows he is 'most likely' going to the top of the square because he cant make the distance. Kemp and Hogan on the goal line. Kemp gets caught flat footed on Hogan and Hogan pushes off him and runs 10metres to the top of the square and takes an 'uncontested' mark. This is not recorded by champion data as a one on one loss because Kemp went backwards and didnt get to the flight of the ball. BUT it is a one on one loss in my books. Got caught napping; got caught flat footed.

Most of these contest losses are because the MC are playing Kemp in a role he doesnt have the weight class to succeed in. The above two types of losses are happening a lot going back 2 seasons. It is also why as soon as Marchbank got ready last season they typically played him over Kemp because they need to solve this problem. This year they have given up on Marchbank (no choice due to injury history) as a preference but it was there last year because of Kemp falling over/misreading plays.

This is probably where you go..i trust CD's view of one on ones, not yours. I can accept that. I just have a different view that adds a layer of more detail than CD does.

I have to reiterate. I like Kemp but feel he should be groomed to replace a Newman type. Lower weight class; less falling over. I'm just highlighting a common problem that occurs defensively and Austin sort of needs to address.

Good post.

I'd add he looks short for his height. We seem to attach huge importance to centimetres rather than physical make up. By the eye test he appears to have short-ish levers, and maybe even a long neck...so physically he presents more as sub 190 rather than his listed 192/93cm. We're asking him to fight out of his division.

I think he's AFL quality, just not a KPD.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Who is pushing 'false narratives'? You keep saying 5 years to make him look worse but it is clearly only 4 - Austin started in January 2020.

Cerra was 4th in our BnF last year and is a success by any measure, despite injury this year. Ollie Hollands has played almost every game since being drafted and also has to be a success. If it is about being best 22, then Fogarty probably counts too - he's given decent value.

Williams was a mistake that chewed up our cap room. He's had bad luck, and seems a great bloke to have around the club, so there's worse mistakes but we gave him way too.much on the hope he could be a midfielder.

That's still 9 players currently best 22 in 4 years. Really 3.5 given none of our draftees last year have been tested yet. Seems actually pretty good to me.

Otherwise, Ollie Hollands and Acres are the two best outside runners at the club. Saad and (healthy) Williams are/were fast outside runners off the backline. Cincotta is quick and versatile. There's certainly been efforts to address run.

Drafting - has had one pick in the top 25 in 3 years and that makes it hard to assess.

That seems at least a solid record. Took over a list that was battling, with a heap of underperforming high draft picks, and has turned it into a top 4 squad. The big wuestion is in whether he can bring in a superstar rather than just hitting singles, and i guess we have to wait and see on that.

Claiming Ollie Hollands and Cerra as success stories is the false narrative, I am talking about.
Excusing Austin's draft picks on the basis that they are around pick 30 ignores that he traded away the high picks for the likes of Cerra who is not performing and the essence of my arguement that he has not filled list needs of outside run and carry, burst from stoppage mids and key position backs

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Claiming Ollie Hollands and Cerra as success stories is the false narrative, I am talking about.
Excusing Austin's draft picks on the basis that they are around pick 30 ignores that he traded away the high picks for the likes of Cerra who is not performing and the essence of my arguement that he has not filled list needs of outside run and carry, burst from stoppage mids and key position mids.

Not sure Austin is at fault for trading for a top 5 mid who as you stated, isn’t performing. Take that up with Cerra or the coaching staff.

A mid like Cerra projected to be was definitely the right call to trade for him. We had Cripps, Walsh then nothing.

 

[macky99]

Claiming Ollie Hollands and Cerra as success stories is the false narrative, I am talking about.
Excusing Austin's draft picks on the basis that they are around pick 30 ignores that he traded away the high picks for the likes of Cerra who is not performing and the essence of my arguement that he has not filled list needs of outside run and carry, burst from stoppage mids and key position mids.

Cerra was in our best 5 last year before injury struck him down.
He will be back to good form, just needs a block of training & games.

Hollands is just a kid, he is two years away from having the body to play at this level.
Who would you have taken instead of him in his draft year that was available?