This
. This loss is on the MC and selectors. Playing Cottrell was never going to work.Autopsy 2024 Rd 17 Blues take a giant step backwards
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. This loss is on the MC and selectors. Playing Cottrell was never going to work.
- Mar 24, 2018
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i first thought it was bedford also but pretty sure 31 was the little rat involved
Gethelred
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First things first.
We've played at Sydney Showgrounds - whatever ENGIE is - seven times in our history, coming away with two wins; all 7 of those games have been against GWS, with our only two victories being last year and 2022. For most of the grounds usage, we've struggled up there: we average 70 points there, where our opposition (GWS) averages 110 against us. Guess who has played the most games there? Callan Ward. Prior to tonight, we'd cracked 100 points there once, in 2022; our winning score there last year was 74. This is also the second time in history we've ever played up there at night; we lost our first time in 2021 by 36 points, and I remember feeling similarly frustrated by the degree to which they seemed to handle the ball and conditions better than we did.
We don't play this venue well, and you'd have thought that - by now - y'all would know that.
In 2017 in Round 16, Richmond lost a game at Marvel by 67 points to St Kilda, their near perfect zone penetrated by perfect footy. The defensive system that had worked so well across the season - and into subsequent years - was split wide open, beaten by a side that did not miss a disposal and did not miss a tackle. In Round 9 2008, Geelong got absolutely obliterated by Collingwood by 86 points; this a Geelong side that lost a total of two games all season (one of them substantially more important than the other). In Round 18 2013, Hawthorn lost to Richmond by 41 points. In 2019, Richmond got demolished by Geelong to the tune of 67 points.
Good teams lose games of footy by big margins sometimes. They get blown out of the water.
If you focus on our record at SS, what you notice is that beyond struggling to score ourselves, we struggle most at preventing them scoring. It's usually the KPF who gets us there: Jeremy Cameron kicked 7 in 2015 and 3 in 2016, Finlayson 5 in 2020 and 2021; hell, even in the games we won, Riccardi and Himmelberg got 2 each in 2022 and Hogan/Riccardi 2 apiece last year. What this is intended to show is that at this ground, we struggle to hold them because they play very fast very precise footy there, and this leads to marks inside front half; this bore out tonight.
Now, all this is not to serve as an excuse. This is the history with the ground, and past performance is no guarantee of future returns. Voss and the coaching staff went into the game knowing all of this, and made very definitive decisions which had a profound influence on the match:
I think that TDK needed more protection than he got. Harry handled Briggs better than Tom did; perhaps a potential switch could've worked here, TDK to FF and Harry to ruck. This is also a sign of what will happen in finals: regardless of the footy Tom has played at different times this season, Tom is ostensibly still a lighter bodied ruck. If he's not leaping over his opponent and/or gathering the loose ball like an extra mid - and do not get me wrong, he is still doing the latter - he's getting bullied, and we are just so, so reliant on first use.
I question how much training we do with a wet ball in dewy conditions. We are the most slip prone side in the AFL, and while we switched to a wet weather game it took us ****ing 2 and a half quarters to do it; by that point, we had done so much chasing that it was too ****ing late and they were simply too far away. We fumbled where they were clean, dropped marks they took easy in defense and in attack. I also think we try to swashbuckle entirely too often sometimes; we keep the ball in and moving when we could simply just get it out, go for marks and corridor plays when we should play percentages.
I've one final thing to say. I'm willing to look at tonight's game as an aberration for a single reason: for most of the season, we've been the best side in the comp at stringing offensive chains from back half. Tonight, we continuously broke down through midfield, allowing them to launch attack after attack from half back or midfield, and that brought them score after score after score. That we were able to arrest that trend and forced things back onto our own level is to our credit - I could, in addition to collecting stats the way I did above, demonstrate that the truly strong sides don't lose big, always finding ways to ensure that even when they lose they fight it out to the end - but this is one that got away.
We've played at Sydney Showgrounds - whatever ENGIE is - seven times in our history, coming away with two wins; all 7 of those games have been against GWS, with our only two victories being last year and 2022. For most of the grounds usage, we've struggled up there: we average 70 points there, where our opposition (GWS) averages 110 against us. Guess who has played the most games there? Callan Ward. Prior to tonight, we'd cracked 100 points there once, in 2022; our winning score there last year was 74. This is also the second time in history we've ever played up there at night; we lost our first time in 2021 by 36 points, and I remember feeling similarly frustrated by the degree to which they seemed to handle the ball and conditions better than we did.
We don't play this venue well, and you'd have thought that - by now - y'all would know that.
In 2017 in Round 16, Richmond lost a game at Marvel by 67 points to St Kilda, their near perfect zone penetrated by perfect footy. The defensive system that had worked so well across the season - and into subsequent years - was split wide open, beaten by a side that did not miss a disposal and did not miss a tackle. In Round 9 2008, Geelong got absolutely obliterated by Collingwood by 86 points; this a Geelong side that lost a total of two games all season (one of them substantially more important than the other). In Round 18 2013, Hawthorn lost to Richmond by 41 points. In 2019, Richmond got demolished by Geelong to the tune of 67 points.
Good teams lose games of footy by big margins sometimes. They get blown out of the water.
If you focus on our record at SS, what you notice is that beyond struggling to score ourselves, we struggle most at preventing them scoring. It's usually the KPF who gets us there: Jeremy Cameron kicked 7 in 2015 and 3 in 2016, Finlayson 5 in 2020 and 2021; hell, even in the games we won, Riccardi and Himmelberg got 2 each in 2022 and Hogan/Riccardi 2 apiece last year. What this is intended to show is that at this ground, we struggle to hold them because they play very fast very precise footy there, and this leads to marks inside front half; this bore out tonight.
Now, all this is not to serve as an excuse. This is the history with the ground, and past performance is no guarantee of future returns. Voss and the coaching staff went into the game knowing all of this, and made very definitive decisions which had a profound influence on the match:
- one ruck, TDK, against Briggs. Briggs was arguably best on, with 22 disposals to compliment his 40 hitouts which were designed not to go to a player but to clear the first ring and get the ball out to space, negating our strength and turning every clearance into a footrace. Notice though that Voss worked this out some; at different times, we had Fogarty and Elijah working through there with Cerra/Kennedy. This is not necessarily a bad thing, letting your opponent win some to test things out.
- Choosing to play Charlie through a rolled ankle. If he's damaged it worse, that's ****ed.
- Kemp on Hogan. I'd have gone Gov, because Gov has superior straight line speed than Kemp does and Hogan hates being hunted. Having said that, Hogan was ****ing on tonight and even with Weitering at 100% I don't think there's much of a way to stop him. He's a good player, and your opposition are allowed to play well.
- The ****ing blue off button, shown as a clear signal in the second term. Whatever it ****ing means, it never seems to ****ing work. If it's play tempo footy, slow the game down, we seem to get sucked into playing at our opponent's tempo every single time it happens; if it's switch off, we do exactly that. I'd be interested in knowing precisely what it means, so that I know what to get frustrated at.
- Cincotta to Coniglio rather than Whitfield. Wrong choice.
- several selection decisions over the past few weeks that have flirted with our form. I like Cotts, I really do; I like Cerra as well. Hewitt is in much better form, and so is Owies; if you were going to run a tag against a dinosaur in Coniglio, Hewitt was the better selection and you are free to send Cinc to Whitfield. We've had a really good defensive balance round the ball and in front half, and they ****ed it.
I think that TDK needed more protection than he got. Harry handled Briggs better than Tom did; perhaps a potential switch could've worked here, TDK to FF and Harry to ruck. This is also a sign of what will happen in finals: regardless of the footy Tom has played at different times this season, Tom is ostensibly still a lighter bodied ruck. If he's not leaping over his opponent and/or gathering the loose ball like an extra mid - and do not get me wrong, he is still doing the latter - he's getting bullied, and we are just so, so reliant on first use.
I question how much training we do with a wet ball in dewy conditions. We are the most slip prone side in the AFL, and while we switched to a wet weather game it took us ****ing 2 and a half quarters to do it; by that point, we had done so much chasing that it was too ****ing late and they were simply too far away. We fumbled where they were clean, dropped marks they took easy in defense and in attack. I also think we try to swashbuckle entirely too often sometimes; we keep the ball in and moving when we could simply just get it out, go for marks and corridor plays when we should play percentages.
I've one final thing to say. I'm willing to look at tonight's game as an aberration for a single reason: for most of the season, we've been the best side in the comp at stringing offensive chains from back half. Tonight, we continuously broke down through midfield, allowing them to launch attack after attack from half back or midfield, and that brought them score after score after score. That we were able to arrest that trend and forced things back onto our own level is to our credit - I could, in addition to collecting stats the way I did above, demonstrate that the truly strong sides don't lose big, always finding ways to ensure that even when they lose they fight it out to the end - but this is one that got away.
I didn’t understand rushing Cottrell straight back in after long break
Motlop needs to come in for Fantasia. He will make a difference
Cuningham adds what we need. Issue is he never does it consistently or for long enough
BlueBlood15
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Easy to say in hindsight but we would have been much better off bringing Cottrell back via the 2s, playing Cincotta on Whitfield (who Cottrell was notionally on), getting a full game into Owies who isn’t a good sub option and having Hewett as our sub especially given we were crying out for a mid to win a contest that wasn’t Crippa. Got a bit too cute at selection unfortunately.
The Old Dark Navy's
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I would have preferred to see Cincotta playing his own game, using his pace and mongrel to win the ball and effect turnover, rather than concentrating on one opposition player instead of the ball. With Kelly missing, I'm not sure we needed to tag Coniglio with our quickest midfielder. He would have been handy in holding their run up if he was allowed to play the ball.
Cincotta, Fogarty, Cottrell, Boyd, Cowan and Ollie Hollands are largely role players than prime movers within the side. When things go wrong, these players don't have the class to help turn it around. They need the leaders to show the way.
This is where I look at the likes of Martin and Motlop coming into the side, because they have the ability to be a catalyst for turning our fortunes around. Class and effort > role player and effort. Hewett needs to play in that he is a pure footballer and while not a catalyst player, is a wise head who makes good decisions. He is the type of player who can remain consistent when momentum is against us.
IMO we play our best players, but cater for their pace deficiencies by having a couple of role players around them.
Cincotta, Fogarty, Cottrell, Boyd, Cowan and Ollie Hollands are largely role players than prime movers within the side. When things go wrong, these players don't have the class to help turn it around. They need the leaders to show the way.
This is where I look at the likes of Martin and Motlop coming into the side, because they have the ability to be a catalyst for turning our fortunes around. Class and effort > role player and effort. Hewett needs to play in that he is a pure footballer and while not a catalyst player, is a wise head who makes good decisions. He is the type of player who can remain consistent when momentum is against us.
IMO we play our best players, but cater for their pace deficiencies by having a couple of role players around them.
This
Cottrell wasn’t the reason we lost
Attitude and effort was the issue. IMO it’s that simple
Hurricane Murphy
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His performances/efforts havent passed the eye test for a while. Moments of brilliance sure, but I don't think I can say hes had a 100% game yet?
I don't think throwing names of old players to compare him against random historic stats is the right thing to do either. If we just say 'good enough is enough' for 23 rounds this year and then all of a sudden it isn't good enough in finals, then that's a significant blunder on our part.
Put it this way, he was going better last year than he is this year into finals, and he flunked. Any reasonable person would like to see him getting separation on his opponent, hitting up, chasing and tackling, instead of the floundering/single effort attempts that's become pretty common this year.
Do you think enemy defenders won't run away from him or wrestle him in finals because he's done something Lockett couldn't do?
- Oct 4, 2018
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No it wasn't - we simply didn't bring the pressure and intensity our game is built on for anything close to four quarters. Only costly decision from MC today imo was tagging Coniglio instead of Whitfield
Blaming one player, such as Cottrell, Ollie or even Fantasia, etc is flawed
We were spanked at contests between the arcs/all over the ground for about 50-60 minutes
Main concern was we couldn't match their intensity
We were spanked at contests between the arcs/all over the ground for about 50-60 minutes
Main concern was we couldn't match their intensity
- Oct 4, 2018
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12 players laid two or less tackles today for us tonight
Perhaps not. Selection integrity.
Hewett did not deserve to be dropped. Cottrell has not played in 2 months and you rush him back in to a side that's won 5 games in a row??
Makes no sense. Voss not playing Weitering on Hogan is another head scratcher.
BlueBlood15
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We lost the possessions, contested possessions and tackles. Went away from our DNA of contest and pressure. We won’t win too many games playing with that endeavour. At the moment, it’s a one game aberration out of the last 6, but it has to stay that way, starting from next week.
Gethelred
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It honestly doesn't say to me a lack of effort, not when in addition to that stat you also take into account their +35 mark differential; you cannot tackle a player who has taken a mark.
They moved the ball so quickly and so easily that they found targets who were out constantly. That is more a problem than raw tackle numbers, IMO.
The Old Dark Navy's
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Absolutely. My only issue with those names is that they can't light a fire under us. They can't stem the tide, or do anything to turn around the momentum.
We rely on Charlie, Harry, Cripps, Acres, Weitering, Owies, TDK and Kennedy to do this. Even Walsh isn't a game changer when things are going against us.
Did anybody catch the pressure index numbers for each quarter? That will tell us something.
We question the selections.
- Oct 4, 2018
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Yes I agree - the non-tackle stuff is just as important when it comes to pressure and intensity. We allowed them for instance too many easy exits from stoppage. Felt like a lot of our players got attracted to the ball and left their man hoping for a disposal
Every side in the competition has had poor periods/games
Long season, just need to ensure this doesn't turn into a little slump and we respond next week
Long season, just need to ensure this doesn't turn into a little slump and we respond next week
They had numbers around the drop, and got the ball to the outside so easily.
Our inability to get numbers to the drop, particularly at half forward and inside 50, was a key reason why we lost that game.
Hewett was dropped for lack of pace and form recently had been poor. I have no issue with it
I would have given Cottrell a week in 2s but didn’t effect result
TBH the effort and attitude of Charlie is what worries me
I think all our role players were poor through the middle and forward
Haven't seen the pressure numbers yet, but get the feeling it was sub par for all but the last quarter
Yep, we've been in good form, and started the game in blistering form.
A few things went against us (not least the clearance battle), that we struggled to arrest, against a quality opposition with their backs against the wall.
A reaffirmation of what's important to us - consistency in effort and pressure. More interested in the response than reading too much into one game.
They failed to get involved in the game at all. Unable to apply any pressure or stop the opposition's ball movement.
Hard to say if it's purely effort based or partly tactical. We did well enough to half contests and bring the ball to ground, but Giants often had the outnumber and worked it out far too easily.
The amount of times that Charlie was competing 1v1 and 1v2 at ground level was very unlike us. We're at our best when we've got numbers harrassing the drop, and forcing repeat stoppages or hack kicks outside d50.
I could handle a close loss if we had an off week and fought all night to go down but conceeding essentially 15 goals in a row without response is alarm bells worthy.
Shitload to work on after that, leaders need to have a good hard look at themselves.
Shitload to work on after that, leaders need to have a good hard look at themselves.
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