Yep.
2024 Rolling ALL-Australian Team
- Thread starter PowerfulPies2023
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Purple7x08_24
President: Galactic Federation
49 clangers for an inside mid is elite.
Rozee Butters and JHf 53 64 and 65
This is what Im trying to say when disposal count is useless if you dont delve into it. Serongs disposal is effective and clean.
By hand he is at 86 percent I think with the most ground ball gets, his kicking has not been highly effective but it seems as though he is not turning them into clangers and hurting his team.
Hayden young is going pretty amazing as well for the season he averages 43 percent of his kicks are going inside 50 and he is is kicking at 72 percent as well total efficency.
13 kicks a game and 6 inside 50's that's close on half of his kicks going inside 50, only Dangerfield has a better ratio but Youngs kicking efficency percentage is 12 percent higher.
13 kicks a game and 6 inside 50's that's close on half of his kicks going inside 50, only Dangerfield has a better ratio but Youngs kicking efficency percentage is 12 percent higher.
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Zorko - Weitering - Clark
Dale - Andrews - Whitfield
Gawn - Daicos - Serong
Gulden - Heeney - Sheezel
Warner - Curnow - The Bont
Stengle - Hogan - Moore
Bench:
Treloar - Neale - Cripps - Flanders/Butters
Dale - Andrews - Whitfield
Gawn - Daicos - Serong
Gulden - Heeney - Sheezel
Warner - Curnow - The Bont
Stengle - Hogan - Moore
Bench:
Treloar - Neale - Cripps - Flanders/Butters
Again, Cripps marginally ahead as an inside mid. 1st vs 5th for clearances, 1st vs 6th for contested possessions.
Goal and goal assists combined Neale is ahead 29 to 26.
Neale averages more disposals at a much higher efficiency (75.3 vs 69.5) with less clangers and averages double the goal assists that Cripps has despite having less inside 50's and a worse forward line.
Neale is also a lot quicker.
Personally, playing Brisbane or Carlton as a neutral supporter I'm more worried about Neale than Cripps.
Both should be selected this year but if you're picking one, Neale has been better overall.
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Says the person that follows Norf
- Mar 25, 2019
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Right... So Cripps leads him in nearly every key metric for an inside mid, is kicking more goals, doing more defensively... And he currently leads him in the coaches votes + is the current Brownlow favorite...
But Neale's been better because his DE% is a bit higher and he's had more goal assists... Oh and he runs a bit faster too!
Do you see how this doesn't make an iota of sense?
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i think Josh Dunkley should be in all of these conversations. A genuine inside mid who is probably the best tackler in the AFL. And I mean his tackling technique, not just raw numbers. Throw in the fact that he is significantly better on the outside than guys like Serong, Sam Walsh, Cripps etc. who can't find marks around the ground like Dunkley can. If this team was genuinely pitted against another countries best AFL team then Dunkley would be one of my first chosen. He's much more well rounded.
1. We're not picking the best inside mid, we're picking the best midfielder so 'the best inside mid metrics' are only one relevant part of discussing the player. He's worse in most other areas for a midfielder.
2. Him leading the coaches votes by 5 votes doesn't mean anything.
3. 6% higher disposal efficiency is a massive amount, especially while also having a higher disposal average too.
4. its 9 goals to 15, neither are noted goalkickers so it's not like you're comparing an elite statistic with both players going at less than a goal a game. goal assists + goals is a metric they often use to measure forwards for AA and Neale is currently top 10 in the competition for goal assists which is elite.
5. Being a more dynamic player is absolutely something that should be taken into account when valuing a player.
by your logic James Worpel is a better player than Butters, Sheezel, Flanders etc. because he beats them in inside midfield statistics.
but you're obviously not capable of looking at this through an objective lens, despite the fact I've openly stated that I think both should be in the team.
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He’s been better then Merrett, Daicos and been more consistant then Warner.
It’s because he plays for Nortb he gets criminally underrated.
Out of all the names youlve mentioned he’s by far the best ball user.
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Your argument is literally 'yes he is performing better in all of these major categories but Im dismissing that because his DE% is 6% lower and he's not as fast'.
Can you list all the areas Cripps is behind in?
Marks, DE%, ground ball gets and goal assists are the only categories he's notably behind Neale on.
Cripps is clearly ahead in Contested Possessions, CP% rate, Clearances, goals, tackles and pressure acts. Essentially he gets more of the ball in tight and thus uses it slightly worse overall. But still leads in SI and goals, and is still better defensively.
Every other category they're either dead tied or so marginally ahead/behind that it evens itself out.
Bont has had a "quiet" few weeks and still averaged 25 and a goal. You aren't taking Serong over him that's madness
Isn’t this pretty much the opposite of what CD are saying about Serong?
He’s amazing inside the contest, but as soon as he gets the ball forward of center he’s one of the very worst users in the competition?
It’s why I don’t think he’s even in their top 20 or 30 players and why Hayden Young is ranked miles ahead of him despite less possessions.
They emphasize damage with the ball above possessions and even stats like clearance and first possession.
They have Hayden Young as their #1 ranked player in the comp over the last 6 weeks and he’s only getting between 22-24 touches a game.
Purple7x08_24
President: Galactic Federation
That particular game I thought Serongs was better. Daicos had a lot of disposals but the overall impact of Serong was better. Overall, they are similar in terms of game impact. Remember, Im only saying that Dacos wont be the GOAT.
People here using CD to determine a players worth need to start watching the game. You cant just grab a bunch of stats and pretend to know how good a player is. You need to watch the game.
Karl Amon is an example. Gets a handball receive, no pressure high DE reasonable stats but has little impact on the total output. Robert Harvey racked up the stats but he didnt hurt yoi. When I see a guy like Zak Butters go in for a hard fought ball, win it, place an effective kick inside 50 leads to a goal. To me thats worth 5 uncontested kicks in the back half
Thats why you cant say, x had 3p disposals so theyre the best player. A kick across half back os worth nothing.
Who gets it to Young in space to deliver it into the forward line? Is their a damaging assist stat?
You are right though, Young should be in line for a spot along with Serong.
That's not what I said though, is it?
No one is disputing Serong's work inside.
I was responding to a poster claiming that Serong is the best ball user of the elite mids.
Which according to the advanced stat keepers, is completely the opposite of what has been occuring the last few years.
He's one of the worst ball users in the comp in the front half. Which is a combination of decision making and kicking skills.
People give CD a lot of shit, which is hilarious because the same people fob off things like supercoach stats. They prioritise damage with the ball above everything, which certainly means their rankings differ from people who just look a a disposal, clanger and clearance stat in the AFL app.
Purple7x08_24
President: Galactic Federation
You cant measure his worth using CD.
his effectiveness is the best in the comp. Last week he was bog and he had one hard fought one on 2 inside 50 which lead to a goal.
HOw much more do you want from him?
To suggest hes outside the top 20 is absurd.
Its Daicos and Serong
Bont and Neale
Butters on peak but has lost consistency
Merrett, Rozee, Sinclair,Tracca, Guldem, Rowell,Cripps,Libba
Prob missed some but these are the best mids in the last 2 seasons
Purple7x08_24
President: Galactic Federation
I doubt youre watching the games.
His ball use is elite. I watch Port and Freo games closely and he and Butters are incredibly damaging.
So do the guys who analyse every single one of his kicks, of every game, for his entire career.
Then double check them weekly.
With no bias.
They disagree.
Butters is in the top 5 users in the forward half in the comp. Serong is not in the same conversation in that regard, given he's in the bottom 5. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
He has had the 5th most effective disposals in the comp and the least clangers out of any top midfielder by a fair stretch. He is definitely not butchering the ball just maybe hitting less people on the lead, maybe because he is the leading ground ball gets player in the league and is executing these disposals under pressure as well, the other one with most ground ball gets is Lachie Neale and his kicking has been amazing this year but he is a 10 + year player.
LongSerong
Team Captain
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CD needs to be taken with a grain of salt, Hoyney on talkback this morning mentions players that miss out on coaches votes because of "their rating for the game" but then they don't come close to polling votes from the coaches. Yes that's one metric but it definitely shows that the eye-test and other metrics can be taken into account for effectiveness and impact
