List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.2

[akaifu]

Then you have blokes like Henry at centre square, and Stocker doing the tagging job. Frees up Windy to play a mid role.
We have a large amount rotating through the mids, the question is do we need McRea and Kennedy when we should be having a natural progression of Pou, Windy, Wilson etc stepping up.

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We don't need either of those players, but imo Macrae kind of optimises our list. Balances it out with experience and maturity while we still have so many inexperienced bodies playing against men

Ultimately, I'd much prefer Macrae over a third round pick. People will argue we picked Hugo and Arie around this point but there's a certain point where you can have way too many kids at once without enough leadership to mentor them. It'd put way too much pressure on the likes of Steele Row Sincs Wilks to be the only real leaders in a 45-man squad

 

[Max the great]

hawks brought in the iffy mitchell who then won a brownlow.

Lions brought in an iffy neale who did the same, twice.

There are truckloads of examples of teams trading in 'iffy' mids and having success- those are just the headline grabbing ones where it was a gigantic homerun.
Lots of less dramatic (but still successful) examples exist also.

Hell, carlton brought in a very iffy goat from freo- and that turned out pretty well for them

View attachment 2115474

Those 2 were never 'iffy' and they were both young with a ton of upside.

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[jimmytigs]

i will throw in one defence of kennedy & i dont really like the guy(for non football reasons,this atheist dont believe in any hell,but same time i dont like sanctimonious axxholes telling me thats where im going)but im willing to put that aside if it makes the saints better

but my defence is that he never really has got that chance,he has always been the next guy in at both clubs,i think the main question here is would he take games and progression from our kids?on the other hand we cant go on endlessly about our midfield(lack of)then not try to improve it

as opposed to other guys,he really has never been put into a midfield and told"your the man till you prove you cant be"we have the midfield that can make that happen,personally i would be interested to see what hes got if given that chance

 

[BrutThough]

Those reasons include he's slow, kicks lack penetration and is beaten on the spread.

Does it really matter if he is slow? We are recruiting him to be on the bottom of the pack, not to add to our outside run.

As long as he can run to an acceptable AFL standard and get the ball to Hill/Henry/Sinclair/NWM running past him, he will be a great addition.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Curtis Taylor

5

Curtis Taylor

Age

24

Ht

188cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.0

1star

No current season stats available

D

6.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.0

1star

delisted by lol Norf

 

[Saintos The ITK]

We should be looking at delisted untried ruckman Hamish Free from North Melbourne.
I’m assuming he wouldn’t cost us much?

 

[akaifu]

Those reasons include he's slow, kicks lack penetration and is beaten on the spread.

Kennedy is a no brainer if we can get him for a 3rd round pick, late 2nd. Much better player than Dow, Jones, Byrnes, Stocker etc.

Jack Steele is slow and he goes alright

Kennedy for a late 2nd would be the biggest scam of all time. Why do you focus on Macrae's downfalls and not Kennedy's? Terrible kick, slow, and doesn't have any standout attributes that would make him better than a C+ player

 

[Joffaboy]

Jack Steele is slow and he goes alright

Kennedy for a late 2nd would be the biggest scam of all time. Why do you focus on Macrae's downfalls and not Kennedy's? Terrible kick, slow, and doesn't have any standout attributes that would make him better than a C+ player

3 time AA is a C+ player?

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[BrutThough]

3 time AA is a C+ player?

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Kennedy, not Macrae

 

[akaifu]

3 time AA is a C+ player?

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Didn't realise Kennedy was a 3xAA soz

 

[ThomasR]

Totally ignoring the depth we already have sure Steele and or Macrae might get injured or need load management but then

Windy, Jones, Clark, Dow, Wilson, Garcia. If Kennedy is gonna sit in this group (which he will) whats the point?

I dont particularly care TBH, we just dont need him and hes not A grade (on output or potential), the only two reasons i think you trade for someone.

This nails it for me. Final game of the year, Phillipou had zero CBAs, Garcia was sub and Jones got pushed out to a wing. This is despite Windy & Henry being injured, Ross & Crouch already on the outer. We went with Steele / Clark / Dow / Stocker.

As a rule we'll run 4 primary mid rotations, with Steele playing a large % TOG. If we're going to use Windy/Stocker in a run-with role, having Steele/Macrae/Kennedy as the others leaves an extremely limited amount of opportunities available to be shared between Pou Clark Dow Garcia Jones Wilson Henry Owens Sinclair etc. Not to mention the draftees. Even Macrae I am a bit hesitant about, but Kennedy would definitely be one too many and doesn't improve the side enough to justify it (as opposed to Merrett etc).

There are plenty of other areas where we lack depth or quality (ruck, small fwd, key defender) and should be focusing, instead of adding another mid who isn't going to move the needle very far. List spots are scarce, the only way I could see us pursuing Kennedy is if someone else gets traded out, but the only guys with currency are the kids I'd rather keep developing. Pass

 

[Pencil case]

Ultimately, I'd much prefer Macrae over a third round pick.

Macrae will cost pick 24 - midweek tackle

 

[botts]

Macrae will cost pick 24 - midweek tackle

Zero chance

 

[Joffaboy]

Didn't realise Kennedy was a 3xAA soz

Thought you were talking about Macrea, agree about Kennedy

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[Joffaboy]

Macrae will cost pick 24 - midweek tackle

So they are our list managers? Surprised they didn't say pick 7.

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[ThomasR]

Macrae will cost pick 24 - midweek tackle

If that's the case, he'll be adding a Dogs VFL B&F to his 3xAA resume

 

[BrutThough]

Macrae will cost pick 24 - midweek tackle

I doubt it.

Dogs can talk a big game but you cant demand a pick that good for someone who was behind James Harmes in selection for a final.

 

[The_Steadier]

Neale and Mitchell weren’t iffy.

Neale was 2x B&F (and 1x runner up) before he moved.

Tom Mitchell had 26 touches 13 tackles and 2 goals in a grand final his last game for Sydney.

Kennedy is not and never will be on their level.

Plenty of hindsight applied here.

Totally agree that matt kennedy is not and never will be at their level- i didn't say he was.

But mitchell was offloaded by the swans because he was iffy- despite his ability to get 40 touches etc a game, horse didnt rate him and happily sent him packing.

Pretty much the same as what happened (in reverse) with josh kennedy from hawks to swans- he was considered iffy/surplus and traded- then kicked on to be a big success for the swans.

As for neale- again, despite bnfs etc, he wasnt rated highly enough (by rtb) to stop him from leaving while contracted.

The point is- there are plenty of examples of where mids aren't rated high enough to keep by their club (like kennedy is)- and then they go on to hit new heights elsewhere

 

[gringo2011]

Our most successful period as a club was built off the back of drafting midfielders.
Dal Santo- P13 2001
Hayes- P11 1998
Goddard- P1 2002
Ball- P2 2001

All of these guys were contributing by 2004.

I can't name a team who traded in iffy mids and had success as a result. Kennedy takes us absolutely nowhere, he might have a B+ season as a career best.

Those guys were supported by a handy senior group and Goddard was terrible for his first few years and even when he did make it he was more utility than mid. I think that shows that getting drafting right is the most important factor. Collingwood stacked themselves with mature iffy mids that had a high impact around what they already had and won a flag.

 

[gringo2011]

i will throw in one defence of kennedy & i dont really like the guy(for non football reasons,this atheist dont believe in any hell,but same time i dont like sanctimonious axxholes telling me thats where im going)but im willing to put that aside if it makes the saints better

but my defence is that he never really has got that chance,he has always been the next guy in at both clubs,i think the main question here is would he take games and progression from our kids?on the other hand we cant go on endlessly about our midfield(lack of)then not try to improve it

as opposed to other guys,he really has never been put into a midfield and told"your the man till you prove you cant be"we have the midfield that can make that happen,personally i would be interested to see what hes got if given that chance

His first year at the Blues was outstanding but for what ever reason they moved him out of the midfield. Probably because he can play forward as well.

 

[gringo2011]

This nails it for me. Final game of the year, Phillipou had zero CBAs, Garcia was sub and Jones got pushed out to a wing. This is despite Windy & Henry being injured, Ross & Crouch already on the outer. We went with Steele / Clark / Dow / Stocker.

As a rule we'll run 4 primary mid rotations, with Steele playing a large % TOG. If we're going to use Windy/Stocker in a run-with role, having Steele/Macrae/Kennedy as the others leaves an extremely limited amount of opportunities available to be shared between Pou Clark Dow Garcia Jones Wilson Henry Owens Sinclair etc. Not to mention the draftees. Even Macrae I am a bit hesitant about, but Kennedy would definitely be one too many and doesn't improve the side enough to justify it (as opposed to Merrett etc).

There are plenty of other areas where we lack depth or quality (ruck, small fwd, key defender) and should be focusing, instead of adding another mid who isn't going to move the needle very far. List spots are scarce, the only way I could see us pursuing Kennedy is if someone else gets traded out, but the only guys with currency are the kids I'd rather keep developing. Pass

Sandringham needs mids too. It just means that your depth is better. If Clark is performing poorly he's at Sandy. Jones and Dow are break glass. Kids can develop in the VFL and be put back up when their performance warrants it.

We can't stay in perpetual rebuild mode. At some point we ned to pay some dividends.

 

[ThomasR]

Plenty of hindsight applied here.

Totally agree that matt kennedy is not and never will be at their level- i didn't say he was.

But mitchell was offloaded by the swans because he was iffy- despite his ability to get 40 touches etc a game, horse didnt rate him and happily sent him packing.

Pretty much the same as what happened (in reverse) with josh kennedy from hawks to swans- he was considered iffy/surplus and traded- then kicked on to be a big success for the swans.

As for neale- again, despite bnfs etc, he wasnt rated highly enough (by rtb) to stop him from leaving while contracted.

The point is- there are plenty of examples of where mids aren't rated high enough to keep by their club (like kennedy is)- and then they go on to hit new heights elsewhere

Survivorship bias

SOS recruited Newman, Kennedy himself and Pittonet from other clubs to Carlton and they all became best 22 or thereabouts. Not bad.

He also recruited Gorringe, Matt Wright, Lamb, Phillips, Plowman, Sumner, Smedts, Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett, Rhys Palmer, Lobbe, Darcy Lang, Aaron Mullett, Setterfield, Hugh Goddard, Tom Bugg, Newnes and probably some others I missed. All guys that weren't rated highly enough by their clubs... and Carlton found out why

 

[The_Steadier]

Jack Steele is slow

Is he?

It's hard to be quick when you're buried under 5 blokes or trying to run with the ball while being tackled.

He's certainly played slow the last couple of years.
But that's very different to being slow.

 

[ThomasR]

Sandringham needs mids too. It just means that your depth is better. If Clark is performing poorly he's at Sandy. Jones and Dow are break glass. Kids can develop in the VFL and be put back up when their performance warrants it.

We can't stay in perpetual rebuild mode. At some point we ned to pay some dividends.

Paying dividends is going after a Merrett, LDU, Houston or Petracca, not someone who can barely crack his own side's midfield

 

[The_Steadier]

Survivorship bias

SOS recruited Newman, Kennedy himself and Pittonet from other clubs to Carlton and they all became best 22 or thereabouts. Not bad.

He also recruited Gorringe, Matt Wright, Lamb, Phillips, Plowman, Sumner, Smedts, Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett, Rhys Palmer, Lobbe, Darcy Lang, Aaron Mullett, Setterfield, Hugh Goddard, Tom Bugg, Newnes and probably some others I missed. All guys that weren't rated highly enough by their clubs... and Carlton found out why

The claim was that there are no examples of 'iffy' mids being traded in and having success.

I've listed josh kennedy to swans, tom mitchell to hawks, acres to carlton, neale etc as examples of mids who were cut loose/surplus/undervalued and went on to be a success.
I'm sure there's plenty of other examples too.

I didn't say anything about it being a foolproof method of success (as your strawman implies)- just saying that it can and does happen.