List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.2

[SaintKing23]

Just realised bonner played 19 games this year.

That makes me very nervous about battles compo not being pick 8.

Us playing bonner so much this year (despite him not being very good) tells me that ross thinks there is plenty of room in our side for another half back (alongside nas and sincs).

Us seemingly dropping out of the race for houston a week or two ago could well be off the back of getting informal word from the AFL that it's not band 1 for battle.

Hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't add up that we wouldn't be (at very least) putting our hand up for houston if we thought we were a good chance at having pick 8.

That's a very long bow to draw. We might not get pick 8 but not going for Houston wouldn't be related to anything like that. Going for Houston would be stupid imo

 

[beside the seaside]

I was reading how a committee works out the compo pick, but can then recommend a different pick based on other factors.

My feeling is the compo pick will go our way. AFL will acknowledge that we're losing an important player on large coin.

 

[snails13]

Well it’s the perspective of a footy fan who can see North are a basket case. Plenty of other places he can go beyond the big 4. I’m simply saying if I was in his shoes I wouldn’t in a million years go to North. Why leave a top 4 team for a bottom 3 team, unless it’s for more playing opportunity or eye watering money (doubling your annual salary). Neither of which are true

I am sure with Houston,Parker and Darling they will improve a couple of spots on the ladder

 

[The Punter]

Parker is definitely only going to North if he leaves Sydney.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Omg
****en hilarious
Soldi only wants to move to Melbourne because his glamour partner (previously pictured) considers Adelaide the most boring city in the world and won’t live there.

Absolute Gold

 

[Ricmel]

Can only be judged under his time with Ross at the helm.

Well that is a very handy way of turning potatoes into chips. We can excuse his first 5 years then.

Well it would be handy if his output under Ross was better than his output under Ratts. It isn't, it is about exactly the same. The one thing you can say about Clark is that he is very consistently mediocre.

 

[Ricmel]

I wonder if pushing Marshall forward falls in with the club planning to develop Caminiti at CHB. Even so we still need another backup tall defender to complete our list. Cordy s not up to it and would be delisted if he wasnt contracted for another year.

To me that is the obvious. Personally think Caminiti has huge defender potential. Said it before, he reminds me of Liam Jones and is attractive as a replacement for Battle just on the basis that he adds height.

 

[Ricmel]

I was reading how a committee works out the compo pick, but can then recommend a different pick based on other factors.

My feeling is the compo pick will go out way. AFL will acknowledge that we're losing an important player on large coin.

I think so too. Or it should go our way. Saints right now, other than newer clubs Freo and Gold Coast, are in the longest premiership drought. We have had a couple of very short windows in the last 58 years but 40+ of those years we have been at the wrong end of the ladder. The last draft compo we got was I think 2004(?). I mean North got a flag just 25 years ago....we can only dream. Foundation club, biggish latent supporter base etc etc.

That is the message I would be pumping at the AFL if I was running the club

 

[Coconut_twirl]

I think so too. Or it should go our way. Saints right now, other than newer clubs Freo and Gold Coast, are in the longest premiership drought. We have had a couple of very short windows in the last 58 years but 40+ of those years we have been at the wrong end of the ladder. The last draft compo we got was I think 2004(?). I mean North got a flag just 25 years ago....we can only dream. Foundation club, biggish latent supporter base etc etc.

That is the message I would be pumping at the AFL if I was running the club

Bassat would be advocating very hard behind the scenes. This is why I’d be expecting band 1.

 

[L_W_P]

FB: Webster - Caminiti - Wilkie
HB: NWM - Howard - Shoenmaker
C: Sinclair - Steele - Hill
HF: Owens - King - Butler
FF: Higgins - Marshall - Sharman
R: Soldo - Windhager - Phillipou
I: Macrae - Wood - Henry - Wilson
S: Clark/Dow/Byrnes/Stocker/Garcia

Even if we only bring in Macrae, Soldo and two top 10 picks, this looks pretty solid.

Hammer will get all the support he needs in defence. Howard out to CHB where he plays his best footy. Pump the Bonner games into Arie and between he and Nas we will just kick over the top of zones if we can't run through them.

Owens, Steele and Pou to rotate on ball and forward. Sinc, Hill and Nas to rotate wing/HB. Wood, Wilson and Henry to rotate wing/HF.

Soldo and RoMa to tag team in the ruck and play the FF bomb option. This gets Max up the ground and on his bike, something we have all been calling for. Sharman to go full Howe/Capper when those long bombs come in.

Im still a bit iffy on our crumbing forwards. Higgins is either white hot or ice cold and Butler is more of a pressure option than a regular goal kicker. Probably why we are looking at Taylor from North but even he is more Butler than Higgins. Do we roll the dice on Jack Martin

21

Jack Martin

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

?

I also don't like our small defender depth. Webster has been a warrior and Stocker looks the heir apparent but can he do a real lockdown job if he's isolated 1-on-1? Two years ago I would have said it was Paton's spot and JWeb was depth but that leg break (and maybe a change of coach/structure) seems to have had more impact than expected.

Obviously we hunt best availble with our early picks in the draft, probably with our 2nd rounder as well, but Id be looking at every mature age comp for ready made small forward/defender options as rookies or pre-season options. Bring them in living on the edge and see who performs.

 

[stavro#4]

I was reading how a committee works out the compo pick, but can then recommend a different pick based on other factors.

My feeling is the compo pick will go out way. AFL will acknowledge that we're losing an important player on large coin.

I think that they just need to point out that their “public” formula/metric hinders us with respect to random cut offs and caps.

For example, the maximum years in consideration for compo is 5.

Battle gets 6.

Battle will fall into the second tier of age as the cut off for the first tier is a birthday after October 1st.

So same age as McKay. But because Battle is a September baby and McKay is December.

One gets more points.

What will be interesting is if the contract has a built in increase - especially during the last 3-4 years. That would then increase the average that “currently starts with an 8”

 

[akaifu]

FB: Webster - Caminiti - Wilkie
HB: NWM - Howard - Shoenmaker
C: Sinclair - Steele - Hill
HF: Owens - King - Butler
FF: Higgins - Marshall - Sharman
R: Soldo - Windhager - Phillipou
I: Macrae - Wood - Henry - Wilson
S: Clark/Dow/Byrnes/Stocker/Garcia

Even if we only bring in Macrae, Soldo and two top 10 picks, this looks pretty solid.

Hammer will get all the support he needs in defence. Howard out to CHB where he plays his best footy. Pump the Bonner games into Arie and between he and Nas we will just kick over the top of zones if we can't run through them.

Owens, Steele and Pou to rotate on ball and forward. Sinc, Hill and Nas to rotate wing/HB. Wood, Wilson and Henry to rotate wing/HF.

Soldo and RoMa to tag team in the ruck and play the FF bomb option. This gets Max up the ground and on his bike, something we have all been calling for. Sharman to go full Howe/Capper when those long bombs come in.

Im still a bit iffy on our crumbing forwards. Higgins is either white hot or ice cold and Butler is more of a pressure option than a regular goal kicker. Probably why we are looking at Taylor from North but even he is more Butler than Higgins. Do we roll the dice on Jack Martin?

I also don't like our small defender depth. Webster has been a warrior and Stocker looks the heir apparent but can he do a real lockdown job if he's isolated 1-on-1? Two years ago I would have said it was Paton's spot and JWeb was depth but that leg break (and maybe a change of coach/structure) seems to have had more impact than expected.

Obviously we hunt best availble with our early picks in the draft, probably with our 2nd rounder as well, but Id be looking at every mature age comp for ready made small forward/defender options as rookies or pre-season options. Bring them in living on the edge and see who performs.

Sinclair is not a winger. Bring Byrnes in for Arie and move Sinc to full time half back with Byrnes on wing. We don’t need 6 players rotating wing - Wood Hill Byrnes Wilson is enough. We need to keep Nas and Sinc at half back as much as possible for our ball movement

Taylor is a lot more like Higgins than Butler imo - doesn’t apply elite pressure but good overhead and has X factor around goal. Pure depth in case Higgins goes down like he did earlier this year. Can also backup Wood as a winger

We have McLennan and Stocker with Hofmann likely to be drafted, I think we’ll be ok in finding Webster’s replacement. Hastie also an option but he’s more a rebounder

Spot on with everything else though, love Caminiti full back and Row forward

 

[stfan]

You can look at a particular stat, but in general terms, Mitch had an ordinary season and will really need to work on stepping up for next season.

Yes, but as another poster mentioned Owens had massive personal issues (not of his making) this year that most likely would have effected his form.

 

[L_W_P]

Sinclair is not a winger. Bring Byrnes in for Arie and move Sinc to full time half back with Byrnes on wing. We don’t need 6 players rotating wing - Wood Hill Byrnes Wilson is enough. We need to keep Nas and Sinc at half back as much as possible for our ball movement

Taylor is a lot more like Higgins than Butler imo - doesn’t apply elite pressure but good overhead and has X factor around goal. Pure depth in case Higgins goes down like he did earlier this year. Can also backup Wood as a winger

We have McLennan and Stocker with Hofmann likely to be drafted, I think we’ll be ok in finding Webster’s replacement. Hastie also an option but he’s more a rebounder

Spot on with everything else though, love Caminiti full back and Row forward

The rotations are purely hypotheical but I would imagine we want to get Nas, Hill and Sinc delivering the ball inside 50 as much as possible.

Same with Wilson, Wood etc pushing forward to kick goals.

Doesn't mean they spend heaps of time on the wing each game, but if we need to give the opposition a different look or shake a tag then we have options to be flexible with our lineup.

Had a quick look at Taylor's stats - Ave about 0.5 goals per game. Less than Butler but he also gets up the ground more. He's not someone I'd be bringing in thinking he will up our scoring rate.

Curtis Taylor and Daniel Butler AFL Stats Comparison

Curtis Taylor and Daniel Butler AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

 

[StCicatriz]

Omg
****en hilarious
Soldi only wants to move to Melbourne because his glamour partner (previously pictured) considers Adelaide the most boring city in the world and won’t live there.

Absolute Gold

but is she wrong?

 

[Klaatu]

FB: Webster - Caminiti - Wilkie
HB: NWM - Howard - Shoenmaker
C: Sinclair - Steele - Hill
HF: Owens - King - Butler
FF: Higgins - Marshall - Sharman
R: Soldo - Windhager - Phillipou
I: Macrae - Wood - Henry - Wilson
S: Clark/Dow/Byrnes/Stocker/Garcia

Even if we only bring in Macrae, Soldo and two top 10 picks, this looks pretty solid.

Hammer will get all the support he needs in defence. Howard out to CHB where he plays his best footy. Pump the Bonner games into Arie and between he and Nas we will just kick over the top of zones if we can't run through them.

Owens, Steele and Pou to rotate on ball and forward. Sinc, Hill and Nas to rotate wing/HB. Wood, Wilson and Henry to rotate wing/HF.

Soldo and RoMa to tag team in the ruck and play the FF bomb option. This gets Max up the ground and on his bike, something we have all been calling for. Sharman to go full Howe/Capper when those long bombs come in.

Im still a bit iffy on our crumbing forwards. Higgins is either white hot or ice cold and Butler is more of a pressure option than a regular goal kicker. Probably why we are looking at Taylor from North but even he is more Butler than Higgins. Do we roll the dice on Jack Martin?

I also don't like our small defender depth. Webster has been a warrior and Stocker looks the heir apparent but can he do a real lockdown job if he's isolated 1-on-1? Two years ago I would have said it was Paton's spot and JWeb was depth but that leg break (and maybe a change of coach/structure) seems to have had more impact than expected.

Obviously we hunt best availble with our early picks in the draft, probably with our 2nd rounder as well, but Id be looking at every mature age comp for ready made small forward/defender options as rookies or pre-season options. Bring them in living on the edge and see who performs.

Don't forget Liam O'Connell for next year i'll predict he will make the most improvemnet during pre-season

 

[stfan]

Just realised bonner played 19 games this year.

That makes me very nervous about battles compo not being pick 8.

Cannot follow your logic at all.

Us playing bonner so much this year (despite him not being very good) tells me that ross thinks there is plenty of room in our side for another half back (alongside nas and sincs).

With Bonner I believe the Club were hopeful that if they could improve his offensive side then it may have freed up Sinclair, to be tried elsewhere which they did with more midfield time this year.

Problems were though:

• Bonner's defensive game did not improve
• Bonner's offensive game was nowhere near as damaging as Sincs or Nas's
• Bonner's very good pre-season form wilted in the higher pressure of the AFL Season.
• Sincs had some injury issues, but even when fully fit I think that it is very clear that he is an elite HBF, but only a capable mid. So he is best at HBF with just occasional runs on the ball.

End result was Bonner was tied, but he could not deliver, and so is now gone.


With HBFs, as in many positions players are often no longer in the traditional roles. Your wingers effectively acting as extra defenders and forward with massive running. You HFs can also run more, and with rotatations you may have more than 2 players sharing the load there.

Club was obviously interested in Houston, but how much is because he is a HDF, and how much is because he was a very rare AA quality player that wanted to come back to Vic and so hence was an available player that could be lured?

 

[Sol Goodman]

"Grundy, a two-time All-Australian, was traded to Sydney in exchange for pick 46 and a future second-round pick."

Soldo is this years Grundy, without the several seasons of elite football behind him.

F3 pick is more than fair.

I think they'll need to give us more than that to take Soldo.

 

[Geezington]

Welcome to st kilda Ivan solderingiron

 

[inntheno]

Yes, but as another poster mentioned Owens had massive personal issues (not of his making) this year that most likely would have affected his form.

Not aware of this, do we know the issue and if ongoing?

 

[akaifu]

The rotations are purely hypotheical but I would imagine we want to get Nas, Hill and Sinc delivering the ball inside 50 as much as possible.

Same with Wilson, Wood etc pushing forward to kick goals.

Doesn't mean they spend heaps of time on the wing each game, but if we need to give the opposition a different look or shake a tag then we have options to be flexible with our lineup.

Had a quick look at Taylor's stats - Ave about 0.5 goals per game. Less than Butler but he also gets up the ground more. He's not someone I'd be bringing in thinking he will up our scoring rate.

Curtis Taylor and Daniel Butler AFL Stats Comparison

Curtis Taylor and Daniel Butler AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Fair but having Arie in kind of forces us to play one of Sinc and Nas permanently up the ground

Taylor is pure depth and agreed, won’t make a massive difference to our scoring. He’s got very similar attributes to Higgins is what I’ve made my assessment on rather than stats

 

[Joffaboy]

Not aware of this, do we know the issue and if ongoing?

Parents separated but father still lives under the same roof. Must have been difficult.
I think moreso it was him overtraining in the pre season. Was put on a modified program of just laps and set shots for over a month.
I reckon he never got going due to the combination of things both physically and mentally.
Still he wasn't a complete write off. His numbers were a bit down but still contributed.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[The Punter]

Parents separated but father still lives under the same roof. Must have been difficult.
I think moreso it was him overtraining in the pre season. Was put on a modified program of just laps and set shots for over a month.
I reckon he never got going due to the combination of things both physically and mentally.
Still he wasn't a complete write off. His numbers were a bit down but still contributed.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

And it was his third season at the club. Turned 21 yesterday. Plenty of reasons for optimism on Owens.

 

[The_Steadier]

Us dropping out of the Houston race is because he would cost too much, regardless of whether we get 8

Cannot follow your logic at all.



With Bonner I believe the Club were hopeful that if they could improve his offensive side then it may have freed up Sinclair, to be tried elsewhere which they did with more midfield time this year.

Problems were though:

• Bonner's defensive game did not improve
• Bonner's offensive game was nowhere near as damaging as Sincs or Nas's
• Bonner's very good pre-season form wilted in the higher pressure of the AFL Season.
• Sincs had some injury issues, but even when fully fit I think that it is very clear that he is an elite HBF, but only a capable mid. So he is best at HBF with just occasional runs on the ball.

End result was Bonner was tied, but he could not deliver, and so is now gone.


With HBFs, as in many positions players are often no longer in the traditional roles. Your wingers effectively acting as extra defenders and forward with massive running. You HFs can also run more, and with rotatations you may have more than 2 players sharing the load there.

Club was obviously interested in Houston, but how much is because he is a HDF, and how much is because he was a very rare AA quality player that wanted to come back to Vic and so hence was an available player that could be lured?

I thought the logic was the most straightforward bit.

Bonner played almost the whole season as a halfback along with nas and sincs.

Bonner wasn't up to it, so he's gone.

The fact that bonner was given so many games this year (playing alongside at least 3 of nas/sincs/webster/stocker/mclennan/ari everyweek), i think makes it crystal clear that ross is of the opinion that he could easily fit another elite halfback (in addition to nas and sincs) into his preferred 22.

This would perfectly explain our initial interest in houston.

Why would we go cold on him though?
Folks on here are saying we went cold because the trade price got too steep

That sounds totally unlikely.
You really think SOS etc would have been surprised to learn that a contracted, dual AA halfback in his prime would cost a top 10 pick or more?

If we have put our hand up for him, but now pulled out of the race- there must be something else going on I think.

*Maybe we've got a better big fish lined up?
*Maybe Houston told us he's not interested in us? (no matter how much money we can offer)
*Maybe it's like I suggested- and we were only interested in Houston if we have pick 8... and a little birdie at AFL HQ told us we wont get it?

I think it's totally illogical to think that we had initially started pursuing houston, then pulled out because:
A. We were surprised he would cost a top 10 pick +; or
B. We changed our minds and decided that we want to go with ari or mclennan or whoever to take bonners spot.

If our strategy really is to fill bonners spot with someone we already have, we never would have started pursuing houston at all.

 

[stavro#4]

Just on the entire Battle compensation scenario. Nathan Buckleys rebuttal on Sen to Tom Morris saying Band 1 would be unlikely was that Free Agency will take into consideration the average salary across the entire deal. (Not what it will be in year 1 as Tom was running with a figure in the 8s)

Assuming that the Hawks offer is a floor of 850k p/y. The salary cap is due to increase by roughly 20% from now until 2028.

Battle would have to have the worst management on the planet to not factor in a yearly wage increase.

An increase as small as 2% each year would then turn his average salary across his deal into 902k. Crossing the rumoured threshold for band 1 (needs to start with a 9).