USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[IlovethePies]

Thing is, I did know this was your overall long term vision for the world, and yes it would be a good end result to have a version of that.

However I think we disagree on how we get there. I think you need to take people on a journey to mentally get their heads around it. Otherwise it is just rejected outright.

Thanks for this, a good suggestion. Initially, I have been just trying to explain that the perspective of World Socialist Revolution is the only way out of the crisis we confront. By "we", I mean literally, the entire world.

The result (or non-result) of the US election, either way, will create a shock wave throughout the entire world.

But yes, maybe I should start explaining how I think this perspective could be developed and ultimately carried out.

 

[IlovethePies]

And so if this is the sun setting on an empire, why not enjoy the show? I say let’s pick the most entertaining option.

Imagine Harris as the smooth-talking preacher, selling a message everyone knows is empty and hypocritical, but she delivers it with polish. Trump, on the other hand, is the blunt, elderly uncle in the back row, cracking jokes, letting out a loud fart, and suggesting a night at the strippers.

Suddenly, the church catches fire. Harris, standing at the altar, says, “Actually, if you look closely, this fire isn’t so bad. In fact, if you consider these statistics, we’re safer now than ever. If anyone’s responsible, it’s him,” nodding toward Trump.

From the back, Trump shouts, “This place wouldn’t be burning if I were still running things. Forget the strippers—who’s up for a night at the casino?”

Meanwhile, outside the church, an orphanage is engulfed in flames to the east and a hospital burns to the west. Harris and Trump eventually leave the church with their pockets stuffed with money from the collection plate. They use it to buy gasoline, which they throw onto the flames at the orphanage and hospital.

Inside the church, the regular people are too wrapped up in fierce arguments over trans people in sports to notice the fire closing in on them.

In this somewhat cynical depiction of reality, you have indeed captured an essential element of reality. Your portrayal of Harris and Trump involves a very clear and accurate metaphor.

However, I must oppose the defeatist tone of your post. How can we just sit back, crunching popcorn and "enjoy the show"? The fate of the entire world is entirely dependent on the historic crisis now unfolding within the cockpit of world imperialism, the US.

The fate not just of the population within the US, but that of the entire world, is in the balance. What unfolds next in the US will send shock waves across the entire global political and economic system.

The standpoint of simply observing what is happening is bankrupt. It simply allows the existing ruling elite to sort out the crisis in their own interests.

Instead, the standpoint of seeking a means for intervening and changing reality, in the interests of the vast majority of the world's population, is the only salvation for mankind.

 

[DaTBird187]

Calm down, here is a cheery song for you

The total boss move would be for Trump to win the election and then deport all three of them.

 

[Blue1980]

Thanks for this, a good suggestion. Initially, I have been just trying to explain that the perspective of World Socialist Revolution is the only way out of the crisis we confront. By "we", I mean literally, the entire world.

The result (or non-result) of the US election, either way, will create a shock wave throughout the entire world.

But yes, maybe I should start explaining how I think this perspective could be developed and ultimately carried out.

That’s the thing, we are at point 0, and to get to point 100 there are a lot of little steps which need to be made.

Mind you if people can be duped into fascism incrementally, surely they can also likewise be convinced of something good the same way.

 

[OneGreatClub]

That’s the thing, we are at point 0, and to get to point 100 there are a lot of little steps which need to be made.

Mind you if people can be duped into fascism incrementally, surely they can also likewise be convinced of something good the same way.

Unfortunately Trump and Musk’s plans to totally crash the economy will end very badly for most people, including us.

 

[IlovethePies]

That’s the thing, we are at point 0, and to get to point 100 there are a lot of little steps which need to be made.

Mind you if people can be duped into fascism incrementally, surely they can also likewise be convinced of something good the same way.

They will not be "duped" into socialism "incrementally". Profound shocks are about to descend upon us, even deeper than the genocide in Gaza, - to which all western "democracies" have given the green light.

Even more devastating than the current cost of living crisis which is burning the vast majority of Australian households right now.

The explosion of economic and political shocks in the near future will generate a receptiveness to socialist ideas of a level not seen since the aftermath of the Russian Revolution.

There will be no "duping" involved either. There will be a massive uptake in the idea that socialism is not just a "good Idea", but is essential for human survival.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Unfortunately facts don't care about your feelings

We know what trump supporters feel about facts
“Mah feelings >> your facts”

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Not denouncing this is endorsing being "gay" as something to laugh at....like they do in Michigan. Because that's what he said.

I thought it was pretty ordinary.

That's pathetically hypocritical, as well as being a disingenuous assessment of his use of the term 'gay'.

But this is to be expected from the Trumpies.

Slurs for thee but not for me.

 

[OneGreatClub]

They will not be "duped" into socialism "incrementally". Profound shocks are about to descend upon us, even deeper than the genocide in Gaza, - to which all western "democracies" have given the green light.

Even more devastating than the current cost of living crisis which is burning the vast majority of Australian households right now.

The explosion of economic and political shocks in the near future will generate a receptiveness to socialist ideas of a level not seen since the aftermath of the Russian Revolution.

There will be no "duping" involved either. There will be a massive uptake in the idea that socialism is not just a "good Idea", but is essential for human survival.

Are you talking about the Creative Society project?

 

[Blue1980]

They will not be "duped" into socialism "incrementally". Profound shocks are about to descend upon us, even deeper than the genocide in Gaza, - to which all western "democracies" have given the green light.

Even more devastating than the current cost of living crisis which is burning the vast majority of Australian households right now.

The explosion of economic and political shocks in the near future will generate a receptiveness to socialist ideas of a level not seen since the aftermath of the Russian Revolution.

There will be no "duping" involved either. There will be a massive uptake in the idea that socialism is not just a "good Idea", but is essential for human survival.

Do you think Trump winning could speed up such a collapse?

 

[IlovethePies]

Are you talking about the Creative Society project?

No, I am talking about the ICFI (International Committee of the Fourth International.)

The only party on the planet which upholds the true socialist program of world socialist revolution.

wsws.org

 

[Blue1980]

That's pathetically hypocritical, as well as being a disingenuous assessment of his use of the term 'gay'.

But this is to be expected from the Trumpies.

Slurs for thee but not for me.

I so want JD Vance and/or Trump to lean into this and criticise Tim of being homophobic. Would go down great at their rallies “we would never do that in MAGA world, we love our gays”

 

[IlovethePies]

Do you think Trump winning could speed up such a collapse?

No, not particularly.

As I said in a post before, the US working class in this election is given the choice of two paths, both of which lead to catastrophe:

Fascism
Genocide and war.

The program of genocide and war also leads to fascism.

The program of fascism also leads to nuclear war.

So no difference.

What matters now is not who wins the election, but instead the development of a revolutionary party in the working class.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

His behaviour is off. He isn’t boasting as much. Perhaps even he knows he is losing?
Jail time incoming?

Re jail time, that thing he practised on the microphone will come in handy.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Keep an eye on Nebraska in the Senate according to Chas from Fireside chat.
If Harris wins but loses Nebraska, she won't have a senate majority.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

The three most important states in the house are Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin.

 

[IlovethePies]

Keep an eye on Nebraska in the Senate according to Chas from Fireside chat.
If Harris wins but loses Nebraska, she won't have a senate majority.

Numbers in Congress are utterly meaningless, given that Trump - should he be in danger of losing - intends to create chaos through political intimidation and violence, prearranged court cases to challenge the certification of votes, and likewise the mobilisation of fascist state governors to interfere in the selection of electors.

Don't get sucked into this meaningless number counting.

Trump is invoking the methods of civil war.

And the Democrats are allowing him to.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Numbers in Congress are utterly meaningless, given that Trump - should he be in danger of losing - intends to create chaos through political intimidation and violence, prearranged court cases to challenge the certification of votes, and likewise the mobilisation of fascist state governors to interfere in the selection of electors.

Don't get sucked into this meaningless number counting.

Trump is invoking the methods of civil war.

And the Democrats are allowing him to.

Biden will squash any insurrection this time, he'll use the army if he has to. If Harris wins narrowly she will win through the courts eventually then they can lock up trump.

 

[GreyCrow]

Keep an eye on Nebraska in the Senate according to Chas from Fireside chat.
If Harris wins but loses Nebraska, she won't have a senate majority.

She may have an Independent though

Dan Osborn the Independent is neck and neck with Republican Fischer - though Fischers own polling suggests 8% - not that I think its suss at all

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

She may have an Independent though

Dan Osborn the Independent is neck and neck with Republican Fischer - though Fischers own polling suggests 8% - not that I think its suss at all

Like I've said before, we need an American hero in the secret service, to be prepared to go to jail for 30 years, and whack trumpf.

 

[IlovethePies]

Biden will squash any insurrection this time, he'll use the army if he has to. If Harris wins narrowly she will win through the courts eventually then they can lock up trump.

Using the army is not a democratic response.
It signals the institution of a military dictatorship.

When the army decides the outcome of an election, we are in the realms of Latin American miltary juntas.

This only confirms the point I have made above, that the program of the Democrats: support for genocide and imperialist war abroad, will lead to dictatorial measures at home.

Likewise, your suggestion that Harris will "use the courts" is totally unrealistic.

The entire judicial system has already shown beyond doubt its willngness to tolerate fascism.

there are six robed fascists currently occupying positions in the US Supreme Court.

 

[GreyCrow]

Using the army is not a democratic response.
It signals the institution of a military dictatorship.

When the army decides the outcome of an election, we are in the realms of Latin American miltary juntas.

They are not deciding the outcome

They are protecting the peace

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Using the army is not a democratic response.
It signals the institution of a military dictatorship.

When the army decides the outcome of an election, we are in the realms of Latin American miltary juntas.

This only confirms the point I have made above, that the program of the Democrats: support for genocide and imperialist war abroad, will lead to dictatorial measures at home.

So you want to let racist trump scum to run wild and sack the white house?

 

[IlovethePies]

They are not deciding the outcome

They are protecting the peace

Read Lenin: "The State and Revolution"

The capitalist state is not some "benevolent, neutral arbitrator".

The military isn't "defending the peace", it is defending the interests of the capitalist class at all costs.

In such a scenario, where the military was mobilised to stop the paramilitary fascists of Trump, the next target would be the millions of workers and young people who would mobilise at the same time to express their outrage against the entire political system.

 

[GreyCrow]

Given women are supposed to be deciding this election I thought I would look for the data that supports the idea women are turning out in large numbers

Women outpacing men in early voting, boosting Harris campaign's optimism

The Harris campaign and Democrats are encouraged by strong turnout so far from women. The Trump campaign says it isn't worried.

www.usatoday.com

Women have outpaced men in early-voting turnout by nearly 10 percentage points − a trend the Kamala Harris campaign and Democrats see as reason for optimism.

But Republican nominee Donald Trump's campaign insists it isn't concerned, arguing the gap is simply the result of male Democratic voters so far staying home.

Four days from Election Day, 53% of early voters nationally as of Friday have been women and 44% men, according to TargetSmart, a Democratic-aligned firm that tracks early voting data.

(noting the source is a Democrat backed firm)

The margin is about the same as the 2020 election won by Joe Biden, when the gap at this same point in early voting also rounded to 53%-44%. But Democrats are bullish because women − who polls show back Harris over Donald Trump by a sizable margin − have maintained the 9-point edge even though Republican voters have formed a larger share of the preliminary vote this year.

More than 67 million Americans have voted early as of Friday afternoon, according to the University of Florida's Election Project, which tracks voting figures. TargetSmart's gender breakdown, which is based on publicly available data, is taken from the initial 55 million early votes. More than 100 million Americans voted early in 2020.