USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[CM86]

What is a single issue or reason to not vote against Trump, that won't end up objectively worse under Trump?

What's the most important issue for anyone, that makes them feel they cannot vote for Harris, that won't be objectively worse under Trump?

 

[GreyCrow]

I think the Democrats have done the math and are not overly concerned - yes concerned but not overly

Dearborn​

• 44,997 ballots cast
• Biden -- 30,718 votes (74.20%)
• Trump -- 13,239 votes (24.23%)

How Dearborn voted in 2016:

• 40,116 ballots cast
• Trump -- 12,171 votes (30.72%)
• Clinton -- 24,940 votes (62.96%)

https://www.clickondetroit.com/deci...burbs-voted-in-2020-presidential-election/#//

Dearborn, Michigan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Arab American National Museum (AANM) opened in 2005, the first museum in the world devoted to Arab American history and culture. Arab Americans in Dearborn include descendants of Lebanese Christians who immigrated in the early twentieth century to work in the auto industry, and more recent Arab immigrants and their descendants from other, primarily Muslim nations.[11]

On February 2, 2024, the Wall Street Journal published an opinion piece titled "Welcome to Dearborn, America's Jihad Capital", claiming that there were a large number of supporters of Islamic extremism in the area. Mayor Abdullah Hammoud said the article was inflammatory and was responsible for increased online hate speech against the city's citizens, so he increased police patrols.[12]

The city's population includes 40,000 Arab Americans. Per the 2000 census, Arab Americans totaled 29,181 or 29.85% of Dearborn's population; many are descendants of families who have been in the city since the early 20th century. The city has the largest proportion of Arab Americans in the United States.[28] As of 2006 Dearborn has the largest Lebanese American population in the United States.[29]

 

[GreyCrow]

If they believe these attacks are motivated by hate speech by MAGAs they should endorse Harris

Or I guess they can just not vote

On February 2, 2024, the Wall Street Journal published an opinion piece titled "Welcome to Dearborn, America's Jihad Capital", claiming that there were a large number of supporters of Islamic extremism in the area. Mayor Abdullah Hammoud said the article was inflammatory and was responsible for increased online hate speech against the city's citizens, so he increased police patrols.[12]

 

[CM86]

They find this almost impossible, beyond voter shaming and "the other guy is bad".

That's not true. It's the rhetoric, but it isn't true.


There are a lot of important and clear policies that will help many Americans. And they're advertising and pushing it firmly.

On top of that in terms of within America, Biden's administration has done an incredible job for Americans.


On top of that, the other guy is bad...

But what policy or anything does the 'other guy' have?
All the 'other guy' does is tell us how bad Biden, Harris, Walz etc are.


How does what you've just said, not encapsulate Trump and MAGA?
Giving hope from lies, that's the positive for Trump?

 

[JB1975]

Hang on...

If Trump had succeeded, if Pence hadn't certified the election results, if a handful or people hadn't blocked the fake electors plot, etc etc, what do you think it would have meant for the vote of each 81 million+ people? 51.3% of the people who voted.

What is a democracy if the votes don't count???



You ask how he's going to end the rule of the Constitution. Who's going to stop him?


He was almost successful in overturning the last election results.
How could you possibly say that the democratic system was still functioning if he had succeeded?
Systems don't stop people who work outside of them.
It wasn't the systems that stopped him. It was the few people who put their country, the constitution and the people ahead of themselves, ahead of Maga and ahead of Trump.


Actively not voting against this, actively pushing reasons why other's shouldn't vote against this.
It's the same lines and same results from MAGA.

Not to mention that you could make the argument that much of the global unrest leading to the outcomes you're stating as reason to avoid voting against Trump, are due to Trumps term in office.

A few good men holding back the hordes? No, not really.

Pence was advised that he didn't actually have the power to block certification, even if he wanted to.

“If the Vice President implemented Professor Eastman’s proposal, he would likely lose in court,” Jacob concluded. “In a best-case scenario in which the courts refused to get involved, the Vice President would likely find himself in an isolated standoff against both houses of Congress, as well as most or all of the applicable State legislatures, with no neutral arbiter available to break the impasse.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3520160-pences-lawyer-told-him-blocking-vote-certification-would-likely-lead-to-court-loss-standoff-with-congress/

Whatever else you might say about the US system, there are plenty of bulwarks against the excessive exercise of individual power.

Without ignoring the disturbing tendencies of SCOTUS, there are an array of courts and legislatures which stand against the downfall of democracy, and the Constitution doesn't just go away because of a few questionable decisions.

I'm in a position where it seems like I'm downplaying the danger of Don. In one sense I am, but in another real sense I can assure you that I'm hardly unconcerned by what might happen.

I know enough about the evangelicals to be worried for women's autonomy over their own bodies. This is something which troubles me a lot.

But I've measured the damage being done under Biden/Harris/Walz against the possible damage of another term of Trump. I've concluded that civilisation didn't collapse during his first term. I've also concluded that civilisation won't collapse in a second term, and that whatever institutional damage he might cause will not be irrevocable.

It's not a simple decision, but nevertheless I'd be comfortable in staying home on election day.

Elections will not stop, they hold elections in Russia and China afterall. The same methods of gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement already used, but super charged, plus fraud in vote counting, media oppression and jailing/banning of opponents. All aided by a subservient supreme court, 90% plus results can be obtained for the dear leader.

There are more institutional bulwarks against most of these things than you're acknowledging, the power of States being the biggest of them.

The Congress also has a proud and not-so-proud history of protecting its own power.

I think that American democracy is unhealthy, to put it mildly, but it will take more than Don to put it in the ground.

 

[darrenmorgan]

Do the Math: Trump Is Toast

If everyone does their part in the next few weeks, Trump is going down in flames. So say I.

www.michaelmoore.com

(btw MM was one of the very few who predicted a Trump victory in 16).

 

[Celebrity 101]

Dems in full panic mode. Polls really looking bleak, can’t win without Pennsylvania and looks like they have no hope there.

Trumps female vote isn’t particularly strong but his male vote is off the charts.

Instead of convincing male voters to vote for her Kamala and her mates at CNN, MSNBC and other Mainstream platforms are pushing the whole men need therapy, too many listen to Joe Rogan and they are all fascists line. Unfortunately this rhetoric doesn’t work. It only further alienates people to vote for you.

Kamala and her spin isn’t working. The last minute swap for a candidate in Kamala who received zero votes compared to the 14 million corpse Biden got hasn’t worked. And won’t work. Unlucky, the world needs Trump more than ever.

 

[Baldur]

Let us be real here, admit the truth. If Biden and Harris went all anti-Israel, the result would be an easy Trump victory. Support for Israel is a bi-partisan thing backed by most voters.

If Harris went anti-Israel, some Republicans who are going to abstain out dislike for Trump would vote because of hate for the Harris policy. Many democrats who intend to vote for Harris would abstain and yes, a small number of left leaning people who intend to abstain would vote.

Being anti-Israel in the US is political suicide, it matters not that you dislike this fact. In the real world we have to learn to accept unpleasant realities.

 

[JB1975]

They find this almost impossible, beyond voter shaming and "the other guy is bad".

Then they act surprised when people who have been literally 'shushed' by Harris don't turn out to vote for her.

 

[pjcrows]

Dems in full panic mode. Polls really looking bleak, can’t win without Pennsylvania and looks like they have no hope there.

Trumps female vote isn’t particularly strong but his male vote is off the charts.

Instead of convincing male voters to vote for her Kamala and her mates at CNN, MSNBC and other Mainstream platforms are pushing the whole men need therapy, too many listen to Joe Rogan and they are all fascists line. Unfortunately this rhetoric doesn’t work. It only further alienates people to vote for you.

Kamala and her spin isn’t working. The last minute swap for a candidate in Kamala who received zero votes compared to the 14 million corpse Biden got hasn’t worked. And won’t work. Unlucky, the world needs Trump more than ever.

No mention of P Diddy - disappointing.

 

[Spearman]

Again, totally disingenuous because on the Israel / Iran issues, Trump is no different and possibly worse. We all hate what is happening in the Middle East, but it's not something that differentiates the candidates.

So again, that issue doesn't "move the needle" so it just looks like people justifying hidden Trump support (I include those who liked your post).

Not just Trump, the GOP in general are more pro-Israeli. Look at how they jump at any criticism of Israel, on any issue, as being anti-Semitic. For as long as the Palestinian issue has been in my consciousness, 1970s PLO, I can't remember any GOP substantive pro-Palestinian policies.
If I were such a single-issue voter (as infantile as it is), I'd still prefer the Dems because they would some conscience that could kick in somewhere along the line. The GOP as a party don't and won't.

 

[JB1975]

Let us be real here, admit the truth. If Biden and Harris went all anti-Israel, the result would be an easy Trump victory. Support for Israel is a bi-partisan thing backed by most voters.

If Harris went anti-Israel, some Republicans who are going to abstain out dislike for Trump would vote because of hate for the Harris policy. Many democrats who intend to vote for Harris would abstain and yes, a small number of left leaning people who intend to abstain would vote.

Being anti-Israel in the US is political suicide, it matters not that you dislike this fact. In the real world we have to learn to accept unpleasant realities.

Months into the Israel-Hamas war, roughly six-in-ten Americans (58%) say Israel’s reasons for fighting Hamas are valid. But how Israel is carrying out its response to Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack receives a more mixed evaluation. About four-in-ten U.S. adults (38%) say Israel’s conduct of the war has been acceptable, and 34% say it has been unacceptable. The remaining 26% are unsure.

Majority in U.S. Say Israel Has Valid Reasons for Fighting; Fewer Say the Same About Hamas

57% of Americans express some sympathy with both Israelis and Palestinians, including 26% who say their sympathies lie equally with both groups.

www.pewresearch.org

There's more room for some vaguely humanitarian leadership than you suggest.

Over one-third of Americans express concern with the way in which Israel has responded to October 7, and less actively support it. Can you imagine how much different it would be if the current administration had done anything less than enable the butchery?

 

[pjcrows]

Let us be real here, admit the truth. If Biden and Harris went all anti-Israel, the result would be an easy Trump victory. Support for Israel is a bi-partisan thing backed by most voters.

If Harris went anti-Israel, some Republicans who are going to abstain out dislike for Trump would vote because of hate for the Harris policy. Many democrats who intend to vote for Harris would abstain and yes, a small number of left leaning people who intend to abstain would vote.

Being anti-Israel in the US is political suicide, it matters not that you dislike this fact. In the real world we have to learn to accept unpleasant realities.

What you're saying is a political leader can't say anything remotely negative or critical of Isreal otherwise they will be labelled as "anti-Israel" and "anti-Semitic". Which I think perfectly sums up how warped it is.

 

[Baldur]

There are more institutional bulwarks against most of these things than you're acknowledging, the power of States being the biggest of them.

The Congress also has a proud and not-so-proud history of protecting its own power.

I think that American democracy is unhealthy, to put it mildly, but it will take more than Don to put it in the ground.

Trump is not the problem, he is a symptom, but if not handled symptoms can kill. We are just going to have to disagree on just how sick American democracy is. Hopefully neither of us will get to see whom is correct.

 

[JB1975]

Trump is not the problem, he is a symptom, but if not handled symptoms can kill. We are just going to have to disagree on just how sick American democracy is. Hopefully neither of us will get to see whom is correct.

We can agree that he's a symptom, but the rot set in long before now.

I think that this election will see the end of Trump, but the implications of MAGA have a long way to go.

 

[pjcrows]

We can agree that he's a symptom, but the rot set in long before now.

I think that this election will see the end of Trump, but the implications of MAGA have a long way to go.

What's your EV prediction?

 

[Baldur]

Months into the Israel-Hamas war, roughly six-in-ten Americans (58%) say Israel’s reasons for fighting Hamas are valid. But how Israel is carrying out its response to Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack receives a more mixed evaluation. About four-in-ten U.S. adults (38%) say Israel’s conduct of the war has been acceptable, and 34% say it has been unacceptable. The remaining 26% are unsure.

Majority in U.S. Say Israel Has Valid Reasons for Fighting; Fewer Say the Same About Hamas

57% of Americans express some sympathy with both Israelis and Palestinians, including 26% who say their sympathies lie equally with both groups.

www.pewresearch.org

There's more room for some vaguely humanitarian leadership than you suggest.

Over one-third of Americans express concern with the way in which Israel has responded to October 7, and less actively support it. Can you imagine how much different it would be if the current administration had done anything less than enable the butchery?

At best 4% swing on your own figures, enough to give victory to Trump.

 

[CM86]

A few good men holding back the hordes? No, not really.

Pence was advised that he didn't actually have the power to block certification, even if he wanted to.

“If the Vice President implemented Professor Eastman’s proposal, he would likely lose in court,” Jacob concluded. “In a best-case scenario in which the courts refused to get involved, the Vice President would likely find himself in an isolated standoff against both houses of Congress, as well as most or all of the applicable State legislatures, with no neutral arbiter available to break the impasse.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3520160-pences-lawyer-told-him-blocking-vote-certification-would-likely-lead-to-court-loss-standoff-with-congress/

Whatever else you might say about the US system, there are plenty of bulwarks against the excessive exercise of individual power.

Without ignoring the disturbing tendencies of SCOTUS, there are an array of courts and legislatures which stand against the downfall of democracy, and the Constitution doesn't just go away because of a few questionable decisions.

I'm in a position where it seems like I'm downplaying the danger of Don. In one sense I am, but in another real sense I can assure you that I'm hardly unconcerned by what might happen.

I know enough about the evangelicals to be worried for women's autonomy over their own bodies. This is something which troubles me a lot.

But I've measured the damage being done under Biden/Harris/Walz against the possible damage of another term of Trump. I've concluded that civilisation didn't collapse during his first term. I've also concluded that civilisation won't collapse in a second term, and that whatever institutional damage he might cause will not be irrevocable.

It's not a simple decision, but nevertheless I'd be comfortable in staying home on election day.



There are more institutional bulwarks against most of these things than you're acknowledging, the power of States being the biggest of them.

The Congress also has a proud and not-so-proud history of protecting its own power.

I think that American democracy is unhealthy, to put it mildly, but it will take more than Don to put it in the ground.

I'm going to agree to disagree.
I don't think you're being dishonest, but I think we have a very different understanding or perspective on this issue.

Of all the things I mentioned, you replied to one.
And your strongest statement is "likely lose in court".

And I just don't know how to engage with this.

Systems don't work on people who act outside of the systems.
That aspect was only ever about delaying the certification. They knew it wasn't legal and that their actions couldn't be defended.

The delay was to buy time to implement the other plans that were basically to throw out votes for Biden, and have States call the election for Trump.



The whole idea was the tie up the courts, the same way they were with everything else.


I hate feeling lied to or gaslit, so I'm going to take a step away from the thread for now as I don't want to become rude.

 

[JB1975]

At best 4% swing on your own figures, enough to give victory to Trump.

I don't think you're factoring in the Dems who will otherwise be staying home on election day!

 

[JB1975]

I hate feeling lied to or gaslit, so I'm going to take a step away from the thread for now as I don't want to become rude.

I think that this is silly, especially because the discussion has been (a) polite and (b) based on some evidence and argument.

Disengage by all means, and most of us should have better things to do, but there's something petulant about writing off someone's position as a simple troll just because your own position doesn't negate it.

The world's complicated.

 

[JB1975]

What's your EV prediction?

Electric vehicle?

 

[JB1975]

And your strongest statement is "likely lose in court".

You accuse me of dishonesty and yet you reduce my post to this.

Courts. Congress. States. Constitution. These things don't evaporate just because Donald wants them to.

 

[pjcrows]

An important thing to remember when painting a picture of motivating factors on voting intention in the US is that it's not compulsory. I'm not suggesting that posters here don't understand the system or it's setup, but applying an Australian lens on the US electoral landscape can make it murky.

Between 40%-50% of US citizens don't vote.

 

[pjcrows]

Electric vehicle?

No, electoral vote Who do you think wins.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

You're right, the position on genocide doesn't differentiate the candidates. My view is that it goes a long way to defining both of them.

There's nothing 'disingenuous' in my position. Or 'hyperbolic'. The logic of it is clear enough. The Biden/Harris government has enabled the slaughter of tens of thousands of people in Gaza and it has taken a more heavy-handed approach to criticism of its actions at home. It pushes an IHRA definition of antisemitism in order to circumvent discussion/debate and encourages authorities to crush protest. It embraces a war criminal within its halls of power.

That is the reality.

Harris/Walz promises more of the same and more, but you don't think it's okay for people to not support this. You think that they should look past the bodies, ignore the mockery of international law and humanity, close their eyes and kiss Kamala because we all know that Trump is even more repugnant.

No one's denying that Trump is a monster, and yet Biden/Harris/Walz are monstrous (sorry Tim). But instead of criticising the dynamics which have created this horror show, or the actors who are starring in it, you'd rather level your angst at the horrified.

The absence of their vote is the only weapon these people have. If instead they give it to Harris, it amounts to a silencing of the self. How else are they to be heard?

You don't have to agree with the position or the logic which leads to it, and I acknowledge that there is room for discussion around the issues. I'm not inclined to tell people that they shouldn't vote for Harris. But to dismiss the position as 'disingenuous' suggests a serious failure to reckon with the implications of what is happening in Gaza and beyond.

Oh dear, the emotive hyperbole to justify a flawed conclusion.

I already said normal people are horrified by the Middle East crisis, though I don't accept it to be the direct fault of US politicians.

In a two-horse race, if you don't vote against the epitome of an inappropriate, horrendous candidate because you don't like a position that both candidates share, then you are enabling the inappropriate, horrendous candidate.