USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[Happy Mastenator]

These points can't be stressed enough. The current levels of inequality in the US would have caused a revolution long before now in most countries.

It's a trend which has been worsening for 40 years. Dem voters found no love under Bill 'it's the economy stupid' Clinton or Obama, which fundamentally disfigured the political landscape.

Biden tried to do more to help the hard-up than his predecessors, but didn't make a dent in the wealth gap.

Harris? Harris flashes her Republican credentials and tells us that she'll likely have a Republican in her cabinet. She threatens Iran and shows no sign of limiting arms to Israel or seeking restraint in the Middle East.

My conscience would not allow me to vote for Harris. If I consider international law to be 'a thing' (which I do), and if I consider the wealth gap to be the biggest single threat to democracy (which I do), then the differences between Harris and Trump are not enough to give her my vote.

What a massive load of bullshit.

Whatever you want to think mate but you're so far wrong on this it's unbelievable.

The Dem's have instituted "obamacare", have fought to protect Medicaid and social security, have sought to cut taxes for the poorer instead of the wealthy, all in direct contrast to the GOP. Not to mention they are on the side of protecting workers rights. The idea that the wealth gap hasn't been accelerated by every GOP president and reigned in by every Dem president is insane.

Also Lol on Harris telling us she'll have a republican in cabinet. She'll give some minor position to a republican that has been kicked out of the current GOP like Kinzinger. It's purely an appeal to the sane middle/right.

 

[GreyCrow]

One of the good PA watchers. Dems need to build the lead in early voting as per below.



Current status. Apparently looking good so far.

The earlier stuff posted is what convinced me Harris/Walz is squeaking in.

Pennsylvania does look Blue

My only caveat is the requirement for on the day voting as well because these kinds of numbers engage oppositions to put more resources into something they would hope to win themselves

 

[spinynorman]

Just throwing spaghetti at a wall here.

 

[GreyCrow]

How this plays out will be key but generally, Whites are a bigger demographic and are more likely to vote.

Which way are key demographic groups leaning in the 2024 election?

Polling averages of Kamala Harris's and Donald Trump's support among Black, Hispanic, white, young, old, male, female, college-educated and non-college-educated voters.

abcnews.go.com

Ironically because voter suppression laws are targeted at Black and Latin voters

 

[Gough]

Just throwing spaghetti at a wall here.

He's overdone the bronzer a bit.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Just throwing spaghetti at a wall here.

I wonder what big car manufacturer would benefit from this?

 

[JB1975]

What a massive load of bullshit.

Whatever you want to think mate but you're so far wrong on this it's unbelievable.

The Dem's have instituted "obamacare", have fought to protect Medicaid and social security, have sought to cut taxes for the poorer instead of the wealthy, all in direct contrast to the GOP. Not to mention they are on the side of protecting workers rights. The idea that the wealth gap hasn't been accelerated by every GOP president and reigned in by every Dem president is insane.

Also Lol on Harris telling us she'll have a republican in cabinet. She'll give some minor position to a republican that has been kicked out of the current GOP like Kinzinger. It's purely an appeal to the sane middle/right.

I give Joe some credit. History will judge him genocidal, but it'll also find he was a decent President who did more for workers than any of his immediate predecessors.

But Harris is certainly making an appeal to the right, so much so that it's reasonable to ask, 'what's left?'

I'm not about to deny the fine intentions behind efforts to create greater health coverage, but I can also see that Democrat politicians over the past 30 years have been hopelessly complicit in propping up the system which creates fundamental inequality.

Either that or they've been so spectacularly unsuccessful that the US may as well have been a one-party state for all those years.

Don't get me wrong, I love me a Wall St bailout as much as anyone, but the strugglers in the US have good reason to believe that it took more than Republican devil-spawn to create their conditions.

And now they look upon a candidate who cultivates a 'cross-party' appeal, a military booster who will continue to support a genocide while making noises about a larger war in the Middle East. Under her, the US will have the most lethal fighting force the world has ever known.

Let me tell you, American dreams of equality are not made from these.

 

[Mofra]

These points can't be stressed enough. The current levels of inequality in the US would have caused a revolution long before now in most countries.

It's a trend which has been worsening for 40 years. Dem voters found no love under Bill 'it's the economy stupid' Clinton or Obama, which fundamentally disfigured the political landscape.

Biden tried to do more to help the hard-up than his predecessors, but didn't make a dent in the wealth gap.

Harris? Harris flashes her Republican credentials and tells us that she'll likely have a Republican in her cabinet. She threatens Iran and shows no sign of limiting arms to Israel or seeking restraint in the Middle East.

My conscience would not allow me to vote for Harris. If I consider international law to be 'a thing' (which I do), and if I consider the wealth gap to be the biggest single threat to democracy (which I do), then the differences between Harris and Trump are not enough to give her my vote.

Trump's tax policies are rooted in trickle-down economics though. Massive tax breaks for billionaires and slugging people earning under US$75k more in personal tax isn't much of a solution.

Every Republican voted against raising the minimum wage in 2021.

Dems just didn't do enough to highlight the GOP policies that exacerbate wealth inequality.

 

[swingdog]

I give Joe some credit. History will judge him genocidal, but it'll also find he was a decent President who did more for workers than any of his immediate predecessors.

But Harris is certainly making an appeal to the right, so much so that it's reasonable to ask, 'what's left?'

I'm not about to deny the fine intentions behind efforts to create greater health coverage, but I can also see that Democrat politicians over the past 30 years have been hopelessly complicit in propping up the system which creates fundamental inequality.

Either that or they've been so spectacularly unsuccessful that the US may as well have been a one-party state for all those years.

Don't get me wrong, I love me a Wall St bailout as much as anyone, but the strugglers in the US have good reason to believe that it took more than Republican devil-spawn to create their conditions.

And now they look upon a candidate who cultivates a 'cross-party' appeal, a military booster who will continue to support a genocide while making noises about a larger war in the Middle East. Under her, the US will have the most lethal fighting force the world has ever known.

Let me tell you, American dreams of equality are not made from these.

I agree with all of that but it takes a massive leap of logic to think her opponent is the answer and this is still a two-horse race.

The principled stand, if these were your beliefs, would be not to vote at all OR organise for an alternative candidate.

 

[GreyCrow]

Ron says both Presidents offered the help when required

 

[JB1975]

Trump's tax policies are rooted in trickle-down economics though. Massive tax breaks for billionaires and slugging people earning under US$75k more in personal tax isn't much of a solution.

Every Republican voted against raising the minimum wage in 2021.

Dems just didn't do enough to highlight the GOP policies that exacerbate wealth inequality.

There's no doubt that Trump's first (and next) cuts are a grotesque extension of it, with the added point of interest that they are to the direct disadvantage of most of his supporters.

I'm not arguing that this isn't a significant difference between Harris and Trump.

It's a broader point that the system is mired in inequality, and that Dems have been unable or unwilling to challenge it, and have often been an accomplice.

In relation to Harris more specifically, there is an absence of promising signs.

 

[Satan]

Lets hope it is AI created, as it certainly is a worry if there are people like her walking around

Sadly some are on here

 

[Happy Mastenator]

I give Joe some credit. History will judge him genocidal, but it'll also find he was a decent President who did more for workers than any of his immediate predecessors.

But Harris is certainly making an appeal to the right, so much so that it's reasonable to ask, 'what's left?'

I'm not about to deny the fine intentions behind efforts to create greater health coverage, but I can also see that Democrat politicians over the past 30 years have been hopelessly complicit in propping up the system which creates fundamental inequality.

Either that or they've been so spectacularly unsuccessful that the US may as well have been a one-party state for all those years.

Don't get me wrong, I love me a Wall St bailout as much as anyone, but the strugglers in the US have good reason to believe that it took more than Republican devil-spawn to create their conditions.

And now they look upon a candidate who cultivates a 'cross-party' appeal, a military booster who will continue to support a genocide while making noises about a larger war in the Middle East. Under her, the US will have the most lethal fighting force the world has ever known.

Let me tell you, American dreams of equality are not made from these.

Must be nice being an idealist.

The reality is that either Trump or Harris will win this election. It's a binary choice.

For those that have a vote if you do not vote for either of these and you elect not to vote, or vote for someone else, you are saying that they are exactly as bad as each other. If you honestly believe that Harris is as bad as Trump. Well then there's not hope.

 

[Zidane98]

Its telling that not 1 former President - apart from Trump - has thrown their support behind DonOld

There's a sizeable republicans against Trump movement.


While there are some who don't support Harris in the dems (there always is someone in a party who won't be happy with their leader) there isn't a wide spread democratic movement openly disagreeing with her being the Democratic leader.

 

[ferball]

Surely AI created

This is a real thing among people in the US.

Its based on this:

US20030085296A1 - Hurricane and tornado control device - Google Patents

A method is disclosed for affecting the formation and/or direction of a low atmospheric weather system. Audio generators are positioned to project sound waves toward a peripheral area of a weather system. The sound waves are generated at a frequency to affect the formation of the weather system...

patents.google.com

BTW I'm prepared to accept it might be possible to manipulate (not necessarily control) the weather and there are elements of the US military on the record as aiming to attempt to do this. The US allegedly did so during the Vietnam war, cloud seeding in an attempt to make monsoon conditions worse. Which is what this woman is claiming happened with Helene in that video.

The Chinese government also claimed it would use its own technology to minimise bad weather during the Beijing Olympics, tho I don't remember back that far these days - did that even happen? If you scratch the surface there's a heap of this stuff and it doesn't necessarily come from Alex Jones or QAnon. Alot of it isn't reported by English speaking media.

But its also pretty obvious that climate change has driven some insane weather and climate events this century and often people use these ideas to invent conspiracies that explain away climate events as some sort of controlled human instigated thing with a nefarious intent.

 

[JB1975]

I agree with all of that but it takes a massive leap of logic to think her opponent is the answer and this is still a two-horse race.

The principled stand, if these were your beliefs, would be not to vote at all OR organise for an alternative candidate.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble thinking about what I'd do if I had a vote in this election.

It isn't that Kamala isn't simply an inspiring candidate. For many, she's a deeply problematic option.

I feel that 'the system' (for lack of a better term) is so fundamentally beyond repair and I despair at the possibility of meaningful change, but I also see that this creates the danger of shrinking the differences between candidates.

Is there a fatalistic impulse? Is it that a second-term Trump gives a 'f*** you' to the entire charade? By not voting Dem in this election, does it amount to the same thing as a vote for Trump in 2016?

I'll keep arguing with myself and let you know the result.

 

[Satan]

This is a real thing among people in the US.

Its based on this:

US20030085296A1 - Hurricane and tornado control device - Google Patents

A method is disclosed for affecting the formation and/or direction of a low atmospheric weather system. Audio generators are positioned to project sound waves toward a peripheral area of a weather system. The sound waves are generated at a frequency to affect the formation of the weather system...

patents.google.com

BTW I'm prepared to accept it might be possible to manipulate (not necessarily control) the weather and there are elements of the US military on the record as aiming to attempt to do this. The US allegedly did so during the Vietnam war, cloud seeding in an attempt to make monsoon conditions worse. Which is what this woman is claiming happened with Helene in that video.

The Chinese government also claimed it would use its own technology to minimise bad weather during the Beijing Olympics, tho I don't remember back that far these days - did that even happen? If you scratch the surface there's a heap of this stuff and it doesn't necessarily come from Alex Jones or QAnon. Alot of it isn't reported by English speaking media.

But its also pretty obvious that climate change has driven some insane weather and climate events this century and often people use these ideas to invent conspiracies that explain away climate events as some sort of controlled human instigated thing with a nefarious intent.

sorry you missed my sarcasm , i am fully aware there are believers out there in usa and here

 

[Happy Mastenator]

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble thinking about what I'd do if I had a vote in this election.

It isn't that Kamala isn't simply an inspiring candidate. For many, she's a deeply problematic option.

I feel that 'the system' (for lack of a better term) is so fundamentally beyond repair and I despair at the possibility of meaningful change, but I also see that this creates the danger of shrinking the differences between candidates.

Is there a fatalistic impulse? Is it that a second-term Trump gives a 'f*** you' to the entire charade? By not voting Dem in this election, does it amount to the same thing as a vote for Trump in 2016?

I'll keep arguing with myself and let you know the result.

It's ok. We won't be waiting for the result. If you don't know the answers to the above that you've posed, but now, then there really is no point.

Waiting for FireKrakouer to endorse was more interesting.

 

[GreyCrow]

The Chinese government also claimed it would use its own technology to minimise bad weather during the Beijing Olympics, tho I don't remember back that far these days - did that even happen?

From memory this was more industrial management rather than any machinery

ie they imposed bans on industries 3 months prior to the Olympics - this reduced smog which in turn cleared air quality and - possibly - the lack of atmospheric issues which drive different weather patterns *


* yes I am talking out of my arse

 

[GreyCrow]

It's ok. We won't be waiting for the result. If you don't know the answers to the above that you've posed, but now, then there really is no point.

Waiting for FireKrakouer to endorse was more interesting.

Centrists

 

[Happy Mastenator]

From memory this was more industrial management rather than any machinery

ie they imposed bans on industries 3 months prior to the Olympics - this reduced smog which in turn cleared air quality and - possibly - the lack of atmospheric issues which drive different weather patterns *


* yes I am talking out of my arse

I work in an industry that imports steel from China. There are regularly times where the Chinese government will shut down steel manufacture / smelters / big pollution industry, in various locations to ensure improved air quality. Olympics, other big events, state party meetings etc.,

Not so much changing the weather, but simply reducing the amount of pollution they are pumping out on the daily.

 

[JB1975]

Must be nice being an idealist.

The reality is that either Trump or Harris will win this election. It's a binary choice.

For those that have a vote if you do not vote for either of these and you elect not to vote, or vote for someone else, you are saying that they are exactly as bad as each other. If you honestly believe that Harris is as bad as Trump. Well then there's not hope.

You think it's good to be an idealist in a world where imperfection abounds?

I'm pretty far from an idealist, I think.

True enough that Trump or Harris will win the election, but no, the choice for voters is not 'binary'. Some see their vote as a positive affirmation of one candidate against the other. There might be aspects of that candidate they're not sure about, or which they don't like, but overall they feel satisfied that the choice is a good one.

It is a vote to be 'won'.

In an election where there are two unpalatable options, and which presents the spectacle of a race to the bottom (right), you believe that a person's vote should simply be given by default.

Unfortunately, a vote given by default is counted the same as a vote given in positive affirmation. It acts as a signal of support. For someone who is opposed to/horrified by both candidates, this is a serious problem.

American democracy happily contemplates a third choice: no vote. For a lot of people who are politically active in various ways, this might be their only option.

 

[Satan]

From memory this was more industrial management rather than any machinery

ie they imposed bans on industries 3 months prior to the Olympics - this reduced smog which in turn cleared air quality and - possibly - the lack of atmospheric issues which drive different weather patterns *


* yes I am talking out of my arse

https://www.reuters.com/article/economy/china-to-shut-factories-ahead-of-olympics-sources-idUSSP38342/

 

[JB1975]

It's ok. We won't be waiting for the result. If you don't know the answers to the above that you've posed, but now, then there really is no point.

Waiting for FireKrakouer to endorse was more interesting.

Don't rush me.

 

[OneGreatClub]