2024 VFL Season - Finals

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AussieNick1999 said:
I would have preferred we play against at least one of the better reserves teams. Port and Williamstown will still provide good opposition but I see little benefit in playing the Bullants unless it's for getting some match experience into the academy players.

It is true that the VFL is just inherently unbalanced, and I think it's gotten worse over the past decade or so. I think it was more manageable in the early years when the AFL had only just become fully professional in terms of wages, but not so much culture (e.g. Fevola smashing a Maccas feed before the Millenium match.) Now that AFL clubs have moved toward being truly elite sporting enviroments, the divide between them and the standalone clubs has grown. I'd love to know what Port, Williamstown, and Werribee do to get the quality of players that we miss out on (possibly a mix of geography, competing with a strong local comp, and our own history of mediocrity and instability that works against us.)

I don't think there is a good solution as long as this hybrid league remains. Yes, the tweaked draw only adresses the symptom rather than the underlying issue. But the underlying issue is that part-time football programs can't realistically compete against elite level clubs who are regularly fielding professionals in their reserves teams. Perhaps I should be grateful we've been able to field reasonably competitive teams these past few years.
Click to expand...
Those three clubs still manage to get the quality because...

Port Melbourne: they're not the powerhouse they once were and most likely won't be again, but everyone knows they're a club that have been historically successful. Plus been in an attractive location helps. $$$ too

Williamstown: $$$ and lots of it, plus a highly regarded coach whos had success at state league level and has contributed to a successful AFL program. Like Port Melbourne, historically successful. Plus plenty of off field stability too with nearly half a dozen full time staff members.

Werribee: $$$ and plenty of it(especially from non footballing streams), full time coach, strong culture with historically high levels of player retention. Plus, its the closest stand alone club to the Geelong and Ballarat regions which are strong football areas. Enough full time staff too including a CEO who has been there for 20 years.
 
Last edited:
AussieNick1999 said:
I would have preferred we play against at least one of the better reserves teams. Port and Williamstown will still provide good opposition but I see little benefit in playing the Bullants unless it's for getting some match experience into the academy players.

It is true that the VFL is just inherently unbalanced, and I think it's gotten worse over the past decade or so. I think it was more manageable in the early years when the AFL had only just become fully professional in terms of wages, but not so much culture (e.g. Fevola smashing a Maccas feed before the Millenium match.) Now that AFL clubs have moved toward being truly elite sporting enviroments, the divide between them and the standalone clubs has grown. I'd love to know what Port, Williamstown, and Werribee do to get the quality of players that we miss out on (possibly a mix of geography, competing with a strong local comp, and our own history of mediocrity and instability that works against us.)

I don't think there is a good solution as long as this hybrid league remains. Yes, the tweaked draw only adresses the symptom rather than the underlying issue. But the underlying issue is that part-time football programs can't realistically compete against elite level clubs who are regularly fielding professionals in their reserves teams. Perhaps I should be grateful we've been able to field reasonably competitive teams these past few years.
Click to expand...
Why the three non pokie income stand alones struggle to attract the big names/quality players:

Frankston: no doubt they're a better run club than what they were pre 2016. While they've prided themselves on being entirely stand alone since the VFL was merged with the VSFL in 2000 historically they've never been successful before that with their only premiership being a second division one in the 70s with many near misses in the 90s despite being a top side. The location shouldn't be the biggest issue given they're based in and around the stronger talent league zones: Dandenong Stingrays and the Sandy Dragons, could even argue its a consideration for Gippy Power, Eastern Ranges or Oakleigh Chargers alumimi/graduates. While there is talent in the local Morn Pen comp, most capable of VFL are driven by the money at local, they either give it a go or don't. If they do, they'll join an AFL aligned side.
Jackson Kornbergs relationship with the ex Sandy Dragons alumini and potentially any ex Suns players he had involvement with may hold him in good stead re recruitment. Regardless coaching full time or not, the jury is still out. They have had stability pre and post COVID with the coaching and CEO appointments. Gary Buckenara and Adrian Lloyd were great CEOs and Fraser Bayne looks to be a sound appoinement. Danny Ryan did a great job too as coach making them competitive again and having a hand in players been drafted. Although no doubt had a full season of VFL being played in 2021, I would have loved to see if Frankston would make finals, or fall short.

Northern Bullants: since Carlton broke off the alignment because they wouldn't be able to 'fund' the operations of the Preston Football Club (Northern Blues/Bullants) yet were able to get the $$$ to fund their own stand alone reserves side, really its remarkable that the Ants have lasted as long as they have in the competition as we know it. Obviously though they were partnered with Carlton for most of that time who had the worst and least successful period in their history, they would have lost generations of support given Preston and the surrounding suburbs were made up of Collingwood supporters, plus the demographics of the area was changing. While they did go deep in a few finals series and played in a few Grand Finals during the alignment they never played in a finals series when known as the Blues. Also worth mentioning Carlton didn't do much to ensure the Preston/Northern entity became better as a whole. Before then, while they were a strong side in the 1980s in the 1990s they nearly folded, lets not forget they had to be renamed the Preston Knights to ensure they got by financially, something which still remains a problem to this day
The fact Preston City Oval needs a redevelopment and the club has had unwanted stability since going it alone (3 GMs/CEOs and 4 senior coaches in 4 seasons) along with inconsistent player retention obviously is not appealing, failing to build on the promise from 2021. And for the time being, only one full time staff member is there. The Council they belong to, football is not a huge priority for them. Rohan Welsh is a great appointment as coach, but lets not forget he hasn't coached for 6 years.

Coburg: its a similair story down the other side of Bell Street. Being aligned to Richmond for 13 years made them lose plenty of support in area usually occupied by Carlton, Essendon and maybe even North Melbourne supporters, especially when Richmond were poor on the field and just as bad off field. As soon as Richmonds fortunes on and off the field started to turn a corner, it was the beginning of the end for the alignment. Historically they've been seen as an iconic club of the VFA and while they were successful in both divisions especially the 70s and late 80s, since 1990 they've had no success although during the Richmond aligned years they did play finals, including reaching a Grand Final since the odds, but only played in one final since. Since going standalone they've been very lucky to have outstanding people and operators lead the club and that has included a much needed redevelopment of the Coburg City Oval which was something we thought never would occur. COVID no doubt hurt any chance of them sustaining the momentum from the end of 2019 leading into 2020, and had the close losses from 2021 (4 of the 7 losses were by 4 points or less) been wins, they would have finished that unfinished season in 6th. Who knows, could it have attracted better players and seen them taken seriously? Then again, need to remember, they're in an LGA with Soccer been the dominant code and arguably one of the worst Councils in Metro Melbourne, if not the worst. The coach Jamie Cassidy McNamara being an ex Collingwood football department staff member, not even his association with some of the delisted pies from 2023 or the alumini running around at state league level was enough for them to come across to join him, which would have been a massive help. Prior to and after COVID for a bit there looked to have been stability in the club, however whats more concerning is there has been little noise from the club around the replacement for their former CEO Sebastian Spagnuolo. Who has been calling the shots there on a full time basis like he had, since he departed in June 2023?
 
Flyingleslieskite said:
Why the three non pokie income stand alones struggle to attract the big names/quality players:

Frankston: no doubt they're a better run club than what they were pre 2016. While they've prided themselves on being entirely stand alone since the VFL was merged with the VSFL in 2000 historically they've never been successful before that with their only premiership being a second division one in the 70s with many near misses in the 90s despite being a top side. The location shouldn't be the biggest issue given they're based in and around the stronger talent league zones: Dandenong Stingrays and the Sandy Dragons, could even argue its a consideration for Gippy Power, Eastern Ranges or Oakleigh Chargers alumimi/graduates. While there is talent in the local Morn Pen comp, most capable of VFL are driven by the money at local, they either give it a go or don't. If they do, they'll join an AFL aligned side.
Jackson Kornbergs relationship with the ex Sandy Dragons alumini and potentially any ex Suns players he had involvement with may hold him in good stead re recruitment. Regardless coaching full time or not, the jury is still out. They have had stability pre and post COVID with the coaching and CEO appointments. Gary Buckenara and Adrian Lloyd were great CEOs and Fraser Bayne looks to be a sound appoinement. Danny Ryan did a great job too as coach making them competitive again and having a hand in players been drafted. Although no doubt had a full season of VFL being played in 2021, I would have loved to see if Frankston would make finals, or fall short.

Northern Bullants: since Carlton broke off the alignment because they wouldn't be able to 'fund' the operations of the Preston Football Club (Northern Blues/Bullants) yet were able to get the $$$ to fund their own stand alone reserves side, really its remarkable that the Ants have lasted as long as they have in the competition as we know it. Obviously though they were partnered with Carlton for most of that time who had the worst and least successful period in their history, they would have lost generations of support given Preston and the surrounding suburbs were made up of Collingwood supporters, plus the demographics of the area was changing. While they did go deep in a few finals series and played in a few Grand Finals during the alignment they never played in a finals series when known as the Blues. Also worth mentioning Carlton didn't do much to ensure the Preston/Northern entity became better as a whole. Before then, while they were a strong side in the 1980s in the 1990s they nearly folded, lets not forget they had to be renamed the Preston Knights to ensure they got by financially, something which still remains a problem to this day
The fact Preston City Oval needs a redevelopment and the club has had unwanted stability since going it alone (3 GMs/CEOs and 4 senior coaches in 4 seasons) along with inconsistent player retention obviously is not appealing, failing to build on the promise from 2021. And for the time being, only one full time staff member is there. The Council they belong to, football is not a huge priority for them. Rohan Welsh is a great appointment as coach, but lets not forget he hasn't coached for 6 years.

Coburg: its a similair story down the other side of Bell Street. Being aligned to Richmond for 13 years made them lose plenty of support in area usually occupied by Carlton, Essendon and maybe even North Melbourne supporters, especially when Richmond were poor on the field and just as bad off field. As soon as Richmonds fortunes on and off the field started to turn a corner, it was the beginning of the end for the alignment. Historically they've been seen as an iconic club of the VFA and while they were successful in both divisions especially the 70s and late 80s, since 1990 they've had no success although during the Richmond aligned years they did play finals, including reaching a Grand Final since the odds, but only played in one final since. Since going standalone they've been very lucky to have outstanding people and operators lead the club and that has included a much needed redevelopment of the Coburg City Oval which was something we thought never would occur. COVID no doubt hurt any chance of them sustaining the momentum from the end of 2019 leading into 2020, and had the close losses from 2021 (4 of the 7 losses were by 4 points or less) been wins, they would have finished that unfinished season in 6th. Who knows, could it have attracted better players and seen them taken seriously? Then again, need to remember, they're in an LGA with Soccer been the dominant code and arguably one of the worst Councils in Metro Melbourne, if not the worst. The coach Jamie Cassidy McNamara being an ex Collingwood football department staff member, not even his association with some of the delisted pies from 2023 or the alumini running around at state league level was enough for them to come across to join him, which would have been a massive help. Prior to and after COVID for a bit there looked to have been stability in the club, however whats more concerning is there has been little noise from the club around the replacement for their former CEO Sebastian Spagnuolo. Who has been calling the shots there on a full time basis like he had, since he departed in June 2023?
Click to expand...
I wasn't really involved with Frankston in 2016, but I feel like something must be seriously wrong if you're losing money by having pokies like we were at the time. I found an article from around that time citing lack of parking options and a lack of knowledge that the clubrooms were open to the public, but maybe it's a mistake anyway to rely on pokies when other venues around town can build larger and better gaming facilities.

My impression is that the club's Functions by the Bay business is one of the big sources of non-football revenue now. And it's fairly well-regarded, so I think financially the club's come miles since 2016.

Jackson Kornberg's ties to Sandy Dragons are a plus for me. Player retention and recruiting has improved from last year, but others have pointed out the losses are still larger than the gains. What's important is that these positive signs become a trend over the next couple years and not the exception, and that our player retention can extend to the core of our team or that we can at least lure over players who can step up in their place.
 

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Round 1 Fixture
  • Index

    • Smithy’s VFL Round 1​

    Friday 22 March
    Sandringham vs. Collingwood, RSEA Park, 4:05PM *
    Frankston vs. Williamstown, Kinetic Stadium, 7:35PM
    Saturday 23 March
    Gold Coast SUNS vs. Richmond, Heritage Bank Stadium, 11:05AM
    Southport Sharks vs. Port Melbourne, Fankhauser Reserve, 12:05PM
    Essendon vs. Brisbane Lions, NEC Hangar, 1:05 PM *
    Geelong Cats vs. Werribee, GMHBA Stadium, 2:05PM *
    North Melbourne vs. Northern Bullants, Arden Street Oval, 3:05PM
    Sunday 24 March
    Sydney Swans vs. Coburg, Tramway Oval, 12:05PM
    Footscray Bulldogs vs. GWS GIANTS, Whitten Oval, 12:05PM
    Casey Demons vs. Box Hill Hawks, Casey Fields, 2:00PM (Ch7)
    Bye: Carlton
    All times local

    VFLW Round 1​

    Friday 22 March
    Southern Saints vs. Collingwood, RSEA Park, 7:05 PM *
    Saturday 23 March
    Essendon vs. Port Melbourne, NEC Hangar, 10:05 AM *
    Geelong Cats vs. Carlton, GMHBA Stadium, 11:15 AM *
    Western Bulldogs vs. North Melbourne, Whitten Oval, 12:05 PM
    Darebin Falcons vs. Williamstown, La Trobe University, 5:05 PM
    Sunday 24 March
    Casey Demons vs. Box Hill Hawks, Casey Fields, 11:05 AM *

    *Denotes VFL/W double-header
     
  • Index
    • AnUltimateRessie said:
    After leaving VFL football. Coburg's Luke Nelson and Frankston's Bailey Lambert have now both joined Carlton's VFL side.

    That just about sums up the state of those bottom three VFL sides.
    Click to expand...
    Lambert was also set to join Noble Park before he got the spot with Carlton.

    This is what annoys me most when we lose players. Seeing them be drafted and play in the AFL? That's cool. Seeing them go to a local league where they're more likely to be part of a successful side? Well that sucks, but understandable. Seeing them go to another VFL team and become our opposition? That stings.

    When your players are leaving and going to opposition teams, clearly something is not right. What do we need to change in order to retain our best players each year?
     
    AussieNick1999 said:
    Lambert was also set to join Noble Park before he got the spot with Carlton.

    This is what annoys me most when we lose players. Seeing them be drafted and play in the AFL? That's cool. Seeing them go to a local league where they're more likely to be part of a successful side? Well that sucks, but understandable. Seeing them go to another VFL team and become our opposition? That stings.

    When your players are leaving and going to opposition teams, clearly something is not right. What do we need to change in order to retain our best players each year?
    Click to expand...
    Lambert was set to play for Noble Park on a full time basis before he got the spot with Carlton, you mean? He already had been registered to play for them for the last few years.

    Regarding the last paragraph, you could also refer to what I wrote regarding why the three non-pokie stand alones struggle to attract big names.
     
    AussieNick1999 said:
    When your players are leaving and going to opposition teams, clearly something is not right. What do we need to change in order to retain our best players each year?
    Click to expand...
    You need to win games to help retention but you need to retain to win games.

    The art of list management.
     

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    Yeah I'm rapt that Max Williams is staying. After it took so long and not seeing him at the first couple sessions this year I'd lost hope.

    He's one of the few who's been around for a few years at this point and that experience is something we desperately need. We've lost so many key players so to see him staying is great news.
     
    Flyingleslieskite said:
    Lambert was set to play for Noble Park on a full time basis before he got the spot with Carlton, you mean? He already had been registered to play for them for the last few years.

    Regarding the last paragraph, you could also refer to what I wrote regarding why the three non-pokie stand alones struggle to attract big names.
    Click to expand...
    He's still on Nobles books, both are
     
    AnUltimateRessie said:

    Smithy’s VFL Round 1​

    Friday 22 March
    Sandringham vs. Collingwood, RSEA Park, 4:05PM *
    Frankston vs. Williamstown, Kinetic Stadium, 7:35PM
    Saturday 23 March
    Gold Coast SUNS vs. Richmond, Heritage Bank Stadium, 11:05AM
    Southport Sharks vs. Port Melbourne, Fankhauser Reserve, 12:05PM
    Essendon vs. Brisbane Lions, NEC Hangar, 1:05 PM *
    Geelong Cats vs. Werribee, GMHBA Stadium, 2:05PM *
    North Melbourne vs. Northern Bullants, Arden Street Oval, 3:05PM
    Sunday 24 March
    Sydney Swans vs. Coburg, Tramway Oval, 12:05PM
    Footscray Bulldogs vs. GWS GIANTS, Whitten Oval, 12:05PM
    Casey Demons vs. Box Hill Hawks, Casey Fields, 2:00PM (Ch7)
    Bye: Carlton
    All times local

    VFLW Round 1​

    Friday 22 March
    Southern Saints vs. Collingwood, RSEA Park, 7:05 PM *
    Saturday 23 March
    Essendon vs. Port Melbourne, NEC Hangar, 10:05 AM *
    Geelong Cats vs. Carlton, GMHBA Stadium, 11:15 AM *
    Western Bulldogs vs. North Melbourne, Whitten Oval, 12:05 PM
    Darebin Falcons vs. Williamstown, La Trobe University, 5:05 PM
    Sunday 24 March
    Casey Demons vs. Box Hill Hawks, Casey Fields, 11:05 AM *

    *Denotes VFL/W double-header
    Click to expand...
    Are you going to go on every clubs AFL board ?
     
    troybe said:
    Both Swans and Giants teams will be playing in the VFLW between Round 3-7. Each playing 5 games.
    Click to expand...
    Not a huge fan of this idea to be honest. I hope it's only a temporary arrangement and that the VFLW isn't about to follow the same multi-state model as the men's league.

    It's probably good for NSW to have experience playing against Victorian teams, but I don't want Victoria's state leagues being the dumping ground for interstate reserves teams just because the AFL can't (or won't) find a better solution.
     
    AussieNick1999 said:
    Not a huge fan of this idea to be honest. I hope it's only a temporary arrangement and that the VFLW isn't about to follow the same multi-state model as the men's league.

    It's probably good for NSW to have experience playing against Victorian teams, but I don't want Victoria's state leagues being the dumping ground for interstate reserves teams just because the AFL can't (or won't) find a better solution.
    Click to expand...
    I would assume it's a temporary arrangement until they get added into the competition full time but I think there is more of a chance of the VFLW being folded and a AFLW reserves competition aligning with the AFLW season coming in once it's full time.
     
    AnUltimateRessie said:
    I would assume it's a temporary arrangement until they get added into the competition full time but I think there is more of a chance of the VFLW being folded and a AFLW reserves competition aligning with the AFLW season coming in once it's full time.
    Click to expand...
    Wonder what that means for Darebin, Williamstown, and Port Melbourne as far as their women's programs go. Also Frankston who are playing at a local grade with plans of joining the VFLW in the future. Are we just going to play local footy forever? Is women's footy just going to lack a genuine second tier in Victoria?
     
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    2024 VFL Season - Finals

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