Play Nice 45th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 19: Law and Odour

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Saint said:
You don't think there are people at Trump rallies with binoculars?

It's America, guns are ubiquitous, you can't shoot somebody for having a rangefinder when you can't shoot them for having a gun.

Where those people were standing who saw him, they would have been allowed to be carrying guns, as they're outside the secure perimeter.

The people who knew he was a person of interest were not the same people who saw a person climb on a roof.

  • 5:10 p.m. Crooks was first identified as a person of interest (probably among dozens or hundreds of other people flagged)
  • 5:30 p.m. Person was spotted with a rangefinder
  • 5:52 p.m. Person was spotted on the roof by Secret Service
  • 6:02 p.m. Trump takes the stage
  • 6:12 p.m. Crooks fires first shots
The main outstanding question is "when did they know the person on the roof had a gun, and who he was?" The answer is almost certainly:
"Not until he fired did the SS know he had a gun, and confirmation of who he was would have been long after he was dead, probably half an hour.

Do you think the SS looking at him were watching him with a gun, or do you think they were trying to work out if he was a threat? They spend all day every day pointing their guns at people and looking through their scopes trying to work out if that person is a threat. 1 in 100,000 is a threat. Before that shooting, none of these SS agents had ever seen a potential shooter.
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Who told you a rangefinder looks like binoculars???
 
Seeds said:
Post was about conservatives. Not trump.
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Why do they vote for Trump, then? Biden has more traditional Christian family values than Trump. It's not even debatable.

So while that's what "conservative" voters say they support it. They dont' really. That's just what they say. What they really vote for is entrenching privilege which usually means voting against other people having the same opportunities. The opposite of what the Bible and constitution say.
 
Saint said:
You don't think there are people at Trump rallies with binoculars?

It's America, guns are ubiquitous, you can't shoot somebody for having a rangefinder when you can't shoot them for having a gun.

Where those people were standing who saw him, they would have been allowed to be carrying guns, as they're outside the secure perimeter.

The people who knew he was a person of interest were not the same people who saw a person climb on a roof.

  • 5:10 p.m. Crooks was first identified as a person of interest (probably among dozens or hundreds of other people flagged)
  • 5:30 p.m. Person was spotted with a rangefinder
  • 5:52 p.m. Person was spotted on the roof by Secret Service
  • 6:02 p.m. Trump takes the stage
  • 6:12 p.m. Crooks fires first shots
The main outstanding question is "when did they know the person on the roof had a gun, and who he was?" The answer is almost certainly:
"Not until he fired did the SS know he had a gun, and confirmation of who he was would have been long after he was dead, probably half an hour.

Do you think the SS looking at him were watching him with a gun, or do you think they were trying to work out if he was a threat? They spend all day every day pointing their guns at people and looking through their scopes trying to work out if that person is a threat. 1 in 100,000 is a threat. Before that shooting, none of these SS agents had ever seen a potential shooter.
Click to expand...
He shouldn’t have been able to raise a riffle and take a shot. As soon as the rifle was raised it should have been goodnight.

As soon as he was on the roof trump should have been removed

As soon as he was identified on the roof a drone or agent should have been up there.


If this is the level of sophistication they can’t deal with then what hope does Trump have?
 

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10571z said:
abcnews.go.com

Secret Service spotted Trump rally shooter on roof 20 minutes before gunfire erupted

Twenty minutes passed between the time USSS snipers first spotted Crooks on the roof and the time shots were fired at the former president, new information shows.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
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That article describes some of the key points of failure that you seem to be ignoring.

Crooks' presence in the area of the metal detectors in the minutes before the shooting caught the eye of someone in law enforcement who became suspicious and started to approach him, multiple sources told ABC News. At that point, the would-be assassin backed up and faded into the crowd, according to sources. It was not clear how long before the shooting this happened.
Click to expand...

Between the time he was spotted near the magnetometers and when Crooks allegedly fired at Trump, there were two sets of radio transmissions, one reporting that police were looking for a suspicious person and another more generic warning that officers were following up on something suspicious, sources said.
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As officers began searching for the suspicious person, Crooks made his way to the area of the American Glass Research (AGR) building outside the security perimeter established for the event, the sources said. At the time, the building was being used as a staging area for local police, who were inside the structure, the Secret Service director, Cheatle, told ABC News in an exclusive interview this week.
Click to expand...

More specifically, sources told ABC News that there were local police personnel and counter-sniper units in the AGR building where Crooks eventually took up a position to fire at Trump, sources said.
Click to expand...

Investigators believe that could have led to confusion as Secret Service snipers were trying to determine whether there was a threat to Trump and where it might be coming from, according to the sources.
Click to expand...

Secret Service counter snipers positioned on buildings close to the rally stage were aware the AGR building was being used as a staging area by law enforcement, sources said. Investigators believe that could have led to a delay in the Secret Service sharpshooters' reactions because they had to first figure out whether the suspect was a threat, sources said.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like a breakdown of communication as has been said multiple times.

He was acting suspiciously on the outside of the event, managed to slip local police in the crowd.

He got up on the roof of the building that local police - including their own snipers - were using.

The Secret Service weren't aware that there was a random civilian with a gun on the roof of the building police were staging from, so had no idea if they saw him whether he was a local police sniper or not.

Weirdly, despite the claim of the SS spotting him on the roof at 5:52pm, there appears to be no further comment or information provided about that.
 
Mick F said:
Who told you a rangefinder looks like binoculars???
Click to expand...
From hundreds of feet away, you can tell the difference between these two things? Secret Service needs you.

It's one thing for people to say they saw a rangefinder, it's another to confirm what they saw. These are Trump rally attendees. They see children under pizza parlours, you don't shoot people based on what they tell you they saw.

1721264020619.png 1721264042039.png
 
10571z said:
He shouldn’t have been able to raise a riffle and take a shot. As soon as the rifle was raised it should have been goodnight.

As soon as he was on the roof trump should have been removed

As soon as he was identified on the roof a drone or agent should have been up there.


If this is the level of sophistication they can’t deal with then what hope does Trump have?
Click to expand...
Read the article, faible is sharing. SS didn't have people there, they might have thought police were there as requested.
 
10571z said:
abcnews.go.com

Secret Service spotted Trump rally shooter on roof 20 minutes before gunfire erupted

Twenty minutes passed between the time USSS snipers first spotted Crooks on the roof and the time shots were fired at the former president, new information shows.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
Click to expand...

If true, Trump should have been off that stage until the guy was removed from the roof.

Now there are two people dead - I think more injured?

But Trump got his photo op, endangering more lives in the process.

"Wait wait wait!"

He's pretty cunning. Instinct for the crowd - it's what got him the "lock her up" and "build the wall" chants.
 
Chief said:
If true, Trump should have been off that stage until the guy was removed from the roof.

Now there are two people dead - I think more injured?

But Trump got his photo op, endangering more lives in the process.

"Wait wait wait!"

He's pretty cunning. Instinct for the crowd - it's what got him the "lock her up" and "build the wall" chants.
Click to expand...
He had just escaped death … how dare he raise his fist in triumph.
 
Saint said:
You don't think there are people at Trump rallies with binoculars?

It's America, guns are ubiquitous, you can't shoot somebody for having a rangefinder when you can't shoot them for having a gun.

Where those people were standing who saw him, they would have been allowed to be carrying guns, as they're outside the secure perimeter.

The people who knew he was a person of interest were not the same people who saw a person climb on a roof.

  • 5:10 p.m. Crooks was first identified as a person of interest (probably among dozens or hundreds of other people flagged)
  • 5:30 p.m. Person was spotted with a rangefinder
  • 5:52 p.m. Person was spotted on the roof by Secret Service
  • 6:02 p.m. Trump takes the stage
  • 6:12 p.m. Crooks fires first shots
The main outstanding question is "when did they know the person on the roof had a gun, and who he was?" The answer is almost certainly:
"Not until he fired did the SS know he had a gun, and confirmation of who he was would have been long after he was dead, probably half an hour.

Do you think the SS looking at him were watching him with a gun, or do you think they were trying to work out if he was a threat? They spend all day every day pointing their guns at people and looking through their scopes trying to work out if that person is a threat. 1 in 100,000 is a threat. Before that shooting, none of these SS agents had ever seen a potential shooter.
Click to expand...

A proper risk assessment for the Event would have anticipated this as a possible situation.
Amongst other mitigation measures you would think that shutting down the event or getting Trump out of the line of fire until the threat was removed would have been Security 101....................
Should have stuck to being at the 4 Seasons ;)
 
Seeds said:
Post was about conservatives.
Click to expand...

The conservative vs liberal/ Republican vs Democrat/ educated elites vs working poor binary divide gets a bit meaningless when you look back over US history.

The strongest MAGA support comes from states that used to be strongly Democrat - including the so-called Dixie Democrat states in the south who were solidly racist, introduced Jim Crow laws, fought against the abolition of segregation and voting rights for blacks. The same southern Democrats who fought the Kennedy brothers over civil rights legislation every step of the way, with bloody, violent and deadly consequences for blacks and those who stood with then.

And the President who was perhaps the most liberal of his times, Abraham Lincoln, the man who opposed the extension of slavery and led a war against the South because of it, was a Republican - a fact that surprised Donald Trump when he was told about it in his first year as a Republican candidate.

Take a look at the relatively recent voting history of the states with the highest poverty rates and you get a clear picture of where MAGA support ( a term first used by Reagan remember) is coming from. The so called working poor with very low levels of post secondary education - where the simplistic clarion calls of us vs them from Billionaire Trump and his supporters gets the least scrutiny and the most fanatical support.

For example, the three states with the highest per capita poverty levels:

Mississippi which has a poverty rate of 19.1%

1721265111107.png


Louisiana which has a poverty rate of 18.6%


1721265165084.png


West Virginia which has a poverty rate of 18.0%

1721265213291.png

Put simply, if you do not read and try to understand history you will fail to understand just how utterly ridiculous the binary left vs right commentary is. That applies as much to Australia as it does the US.
 
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Festerz said:
The cancellation was Black being 100% focussed on his US career and possible future ramifications back home.

Has been latched on to by the media here, but don't think it caused much of a ripple from those who were there.
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Mate still hates Tenacious D to this day purely because he wrote off his car uninsured, and for 12 months had to drive his mum's hand-me-down Mazda Tribute; and every time he gave us a lift somewhere, nearing the end of the trip (ie walking distance to destination if we got kicked out) you can bet one of us would say "This is not the greatest car in the world" so that the other passengers could all respond in unison "No, this is just a Tribute".
 

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10571z said:
He had just escaped death … how dare he raise his fist in triumph.
Click to expand...
It was incredibly selfish - when he had people literally using their own bodies to protect him - to stop everyone, and take a few seconds to pop his head up and make a further target out of himself and endanger his staff and anyone in the crowd near him.

All for a clip for his social reels.

There was no way to know there weren't more people in the area ready to finish him off if the first attempt failed. No way at all.

Anyone with a basically objective look at the videos from the event should not have trouble seeing this.
 
Chief said:
It was incredibly selfish - when he had people literally using their own bodies to protect him - to stop everyone, and take a few seconds to pop his head up and make a further target out of himself and endanger his staff and anyone in the crowd near him.

All for a clip for his social reels.

There was no way to know there weren't more people in the area ready to finish him off if the first attempt failed. No way at all.

Anyone with a basically objective look at the videos from the event should not have trouble seeing this.
Click to expand...

Was reported the SS told him to show the crowd he was ok.
 
Achy Blakey Heart said:
Was reported the SS told him to show the crowd he was ok.
Click to expand...
No I didn't see that at all. He told them to "wait wait wait" from what I saw. You can hear it. Nothing about the SS telling him to do it.

Where was that?
 
18:12:06: Female agent 1: “Hawkeye’s here, moving to the spare.”

(“Hawkeye” is the code name for the counter assault team.)

18:12:09: Male agent 4: “Spare get ready, spare get ready.”

18:12:10: Male agent 2: “You ready?”

18:12:16-21: Agents: “Shooter’s down, shooter’s down, are we good to move?”

18:12:21: Male agent: “Shooter’s down. We’re good to move.”

18:12:22: Female agent: “Are we clear?”

18:12:23: Agents: “We’re clear, we’re clear, we’re clear.”

18:12:23: Male agent: “Let’s move, let’s move.”

Agents start to stand up, lifting Trump.

18:12:33: Trump: “Let me get my shoes, let me get my shoes.”

18:12:35: Male agent 2: “I got you sir, I got you sir.”

18:12:36: Trump: “Let me get my shoes on.”

18:12:37: Another male agent: “hold on, your head is bloody.”

18:12:39: Male agent 2: “Sir we’ve got to move to the car sir.”

18:12:42: Trump: “Let me get my shoes.”

18:12:43: Female agent: “OK, [inaudible].”

18:12:47: Trump: “Wait, wait, wait” then fist pumps to crowd. He mouths “fight” three times – a move met with cheers by the crowd.

18:12:54: Agent: “We got to move, we got to move.”

 
Chief said:
It was incredibly selfish - when he had people literally using their own bodies to protect him - to stop everyone, and take a few seconds to pop his head up and make a further target out of himself and endanger his staff and anyone in the crowd near him.

All for a clip for his social reels.

There was no way to know there weren't more people in the area ready to finish him off if the first attempt failed. No way at all.

Anyone with a basically objective look at the videos from the event should not have trouble seeing this.
Click to expand...
ABC's Planet America discussed this in depth last night.

The interview with former Secret Service agent Jeff James, who is highly critical of the actions of Trump, is linked below:

 
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