Play Nice 47th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 20: Here we go again!

[Gethelred]

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USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

USA - Kamala Harris Concedes. God Help America

www.bigfooty.com

< - Trump 19 is back there.

 

[Partridge]

Grandiose and ridiculous statements here. It's not perceived character, it's his character. He revels in this awfulness. He plays off it. Trump is every bit as hypocritical as them all

A large part (50%ish) care a great deal about his character.

Quite possibly. The tiny problem is the people that voted don't care.

 

[zumahawk]

Glad you asked this question. Here is a quote from the article I linked earlier (and have linked again below) which answers this very question:


"It would have been entirely in order for Biden to declare that as long as he remains president, for the next 70 days, Trump is on political probation, and that the “peaceful transfer of power” requires guarantees of the peaceful and democratic exercise of power after January 20. This would include Trump making public who he will nominate as his principal cabinet officers, particularly those in charge of the military-intelligence apparatus.

In the meantime, Biden would be entitled as president to consult with Democratic governors and members of Congress on ways to protect the rights of the majority of Americans who did not vote for Trump, including the 70 million who voted for Harris, the tens of millions who refused to vote for either candidate, and the many millions whose anger and frustration was exploited by Trump’s right-wing populist demagogy, but have no desire to install a dictator-president. Instead, Biden gives Trump carte blanche.

In his posture and actions, Biden resembles an outgoing Democratic president of more than 150 years ago, James Buchanan, usually ranked by historians—until Trump—as the worst president in American history. After the victory of Abraham Lincoln over Buchanan in the 1860 election, the pro-slavery Democrat effectively gave a green light to the gathering Confederate insurrection. He took no action to protect federal military installations and stockpiles in the South, allowing the secessionists to seize them and gain an initial military advantage."

Democrats grovel before Trump

President Biden and Vice President Harris have pledged full cooperation with the incoming fascist president-elect, while issuing no warning to the American people of the dangers of mass repression and rule by force.

www.wsws.org

That would have made things even more divided. That would have played into 'Trump as a victim' narrative. They did the right thing.

 

[Royces Hart]

Glad you asked this question. Here is a quote from the article I linked earlier (and have linked again below) which answers this very question:


"It would have been entirely in order for Biden to declare that as long as he remains president, for the next 70 days, Trump is on political probation, and that the “peaceful transfer of power” requires guarantees of the peaceful and democratic exercise of power after January 20. This would include Trump making public who he will nominate as his principal cabinet officers, particularly those in charge of the military-intelligence apparatus.

In the meantime, Biden would be entitled as president to consult with Democratic governors and members of Congress on ways to protect the rights of the majority of Americans who did not vote for Trump, including the 70 million who voted for Harris, the tens of millions who refused to vote for either candidate, and the many millions whose anger and frustration was exploited by Trump’s right-wing populist demagogy, but have no desire to install a dictator-president. Instead, Biden gives Trump carte blanche.

In his posture and actions, Biden resembles an outgoing Democratic president of more than 150 years ago, James Buchanan, usually ranked by historians—until Trump—as the worst president in American history. After the victory of Abraham Lincoln over Buchanan in the 1860 election, the pro-slavery Democrat effectively gave a green light to the gathering Confederate insurrection. He took no action to protect federal military installations and stockpiles in the South, allowing the secessionists to seize them and gain an initial military advantage."

Democrats grovel before Trump

President Biden and Vice President Harris have pledged full cooperation with the incoming fascist president-elect, while issuing no warning to the American people of the dangers of mass repression and rule by force.

www.wsws.org

On what basis, would Biden have been entitled to do that?

 

[zumahawk]

Yes, the disgusting identity politics of the Democrats (gender, race, sexual orientation) are repulsive to those whose families are threatened with destitution due to inflation and the suppression of wages.

Racism and xenophobia of the GOP is horrid. Blaming everything on minorities is surely the answer to inflation and suppression of wages.

 

[zumahawk]

Quite possibly. The tiny problem is the people that voted don't care.

Agree, which sad but that's the reality.

 

[Gethelred]

Yes, the disgusting identity politics of the Democrats (gender, race, sexual orientation) are repulsive to those whose families are threatened with destitution due to inflation and the suppression of wages.

... the struggle of minorities is the struggle of the movement, ILTP. You ignore the groups that make up your little worker's coalition, your revolution fails because they can't trust you to follow through.

The point of it is that because we are workers vs owners, we are all the same regardless of culture, religion, social background or class; united in the struggle. Deciding to cut off parts of that struggle because it's 'identity politics' will destroy your movement, because you don't outnumber the owners without all those minority groups.

 

[Partridge]

Agree, which sad but that's the reality.

I remember from 2016, in the aftermath Bernie Sanders did a Town Hall in maybe Michigan (it was somewhere in a Rust belt) with four people plucked from the audience. All voted for Trump. Unlike the majority in the mainstream media, Sanders to his credit didn't mock them, didn't abuse them, just spoke to them, asked them about their individual circumstances and concerns, and surprise surprise, they weren't morons or bigots, just normal people who felt they had no choice and were completely ignored by the Democrats. What's lost is the willingness of (most) politicians and parties to do that - speak to people and actually find out what they're thinking.

 

[IlovethePies]

Quoting from the same article:

The re-entry of Donald Trump into the White House, regaining the most powerful political office in the world, is anything but a normal political occasion. Four years ago, Trump staged a violent political coup, attempting to overturn the outcome of the 2020 election and maintain his grip on power.

The US president, when inaugurated, swears the Oath of Office:

"I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Biden is still the President. He is still bound by this oath. Therefore, if he is convinced that there is a political threat to the constitution, he is bound by this oath to take measures to protect it.

 

[zumahawk]

Quoting from the same article:

The re-entry of Donald Trump into the White House, regaining the most powerful political office in the world, is anything but a normal political occasion. Four years ago, Trump staged a violent political coup, attempting to overturn the outcome of the 2020 election and maintain his grip on power.

The US president, when inaugurated, swears the Oath of Office:

"I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Biden is still the President. He is still bound by this oath. Therefore, if he is convinced that there is a political threat to the constitution, he is bound by this oath to take measures to protect it.

How do you think this would go down? It would unleash hell.

 

[IlovethePies]

How do you think this would go down? It would unleash hell.

It would expose before the working class Trump and the Republicans conspiracy to impose authoritarian forms of rule, which would incite the class struggle.

I don't know how it would go down....but the Democrats won't ever do that, because it invites the participation of the masses from below, which is what they fear above all else (and the Republicans as well, for that matter).

You are the one so big on "character". I am surprised that you now argue that Biden should not perform his constitutional duty because it "might not go down well".

 

[IlovethePies]

... the struggle of minorities is the struggle of the movement, ILTP. You ignore the groups that make up your little worker's coalition, your revolution fails because they can't trust you to follow through.

The point of it is that because we are workers vs owners, we are all the same regardless of culture, religion, social background or class; united in the struggle. Deciding to cut off parts of that struggle because it's 'identity politics' will destroy your movement, because you don't outnumber the owners without all those minority groups.

The struggle of minorities can only be carried forward as part of an international, unified movement of the working class. This movement will be based on class, not on gender, sexual orientation, or race. These are reactionary categories which simply do not describe social reality. The Democrats, and here in Australia, the ALP and the Greens, all utilise identity politics to divide the working class and prevent a unified response to the social calamity that they are enforcing.

 

[QuietB]

Yes, the disgusting identity politics of the Democrats (gender, race, sexual orientation) are repulsive to those whose families are threatened with destitution due to inflation and the suppression of wages.

Well then the obvious thing to do is make the man who doesn’t pay his contractors at all president - maybe Trump will ban wages all together. We know Elon Musk would

 

[zumahawk]

It would expose before the working class Trump and the Republicans conspiracy to impose authoritarian forms of rule, which would incite the class struggle.

I don't know how it would go down....but the Democrats won't ever do that, because it invites the participation of the masses from below, which is what they fear above all else (and the Republicans as well, for that matter).

You are the one so big on "character". I am surprised that you now argue that Biden should not perform his constitutional duty because it "might not go down well".

From how that system currently functions Biden doing that would be a shitshow and would backfire.

 

[zumahawk]

It would expose before the working class Trump and the Republicans conspiracy to impose authoritarian forms of rule, which would incite the class struggle.

I don't know how it would go down....but the Democrats won't ever do that, because it invites the participation of the masses from below, which is what they fear above all else (and the Republicans as well, for that matter).

You are the one so big on "character". I am surprised that you now argue that Biden should not perform his constitutional duty because it "might not go down well".

Biden's constitutional duty was followed through unlike Trump's 4 years ago.

 

[QuietB]

The Democrats, and here in Australia, the ALP and the Greens, all utilise identity politics to divide the working class and prevent a unified response to the social calamity that they are enforcing.

How precisely do they “utilise identity politics to divide the working class“?

When do they use identity politics at all?

 

[IlovethePies]

Well then the obvious thing to do is make the man who doesn’t pay his contractors at all president - maybe Trump will ban wages all together. We know Elon Musk would

The divisions of society are based on class, and nothing else.

The poltics of gender, sexual orientation and race all appeal to the upper middle class, who lead a very comfortable material existence and do not have to worry about matters of social equality.

In fact, they are hostile to social equality, because they would view a struggle for social equality as dangerous to their highly significant ownership of wealth and privileges.

Therefore, it is impossible to mobilise opposition to capitalism on the basis of identity politics, which is precisely the reason why the Democrats have adopted it.

They use it, in much the same manner as the ALP/Greens here in Australia use it to promote a fake "left" veneer.

The only way that the democratic rights of all people, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, can be guaranteed, is through an international socialist movement based on the class interests of the international working class.

In other words, the struggle to defend social rights (the right to quality public education, the right to quality public health, the right to decent accommodation ...) is the only way to fight for democratic rights (such as the right to pursue your own chosen sexual orientation, cultural differences, etc).

 

[Vassp]

Word salad ha!. Are you trying to say a far right loony mentioned something that's probably false about Obama on the internet at some stage?

'Word salad? cant you read my post? Too hard to comprehend?
Dont get caught up on Obama, not worth mentioning-drop it please.

 

[Episode IV]

... the struggle of minorities is the struggle of the movement, ILTP. You ignore the groups that make up your little worker's coalition, your revolution fails because they can't trust you to follow through.

The point of it is that because we are workers vs owners, we are all the same regardless of culture, religion, social background or class; united in the struggle. Deciding to cut off parts of that struggle because it's 'identity politics' will destroy your movement, because you don't outnumber the owners without all those minority groups.

I'm sure you're well aware of the difference between theoretical democracy and the representative democracy we currently have in place.

That being said, at what point do you think a representative democracy becomes overly cumbersome and unwieldy when particular attention is paid to the increasing number of minority groups within an increasingly multicultural society?

 

[Blue1980]

And be astounded at how easily people will dismiss what they do know.

But those same people are baked into vote for him anyway

 

[Blue1980]

Which they didn’t trust the democrat establishment would do.

100%, mainly due to 12-15 million people not giving a **** this time to vote who did last time.

Why that was the case, I have some theories:

A) Current economic situation made people either apathetic or just vote Trump, from the looks of things it was mostly the former

B) Fatigue. We went through this whole dance in 2020, saving democracy, trump is a fascist etc. Then asking them to do the same thing again when they haven’t really done anything positive except say they aren’t Trump, and are just a MAGA lite who will respect democratic norms, who gives a ****.

C) facilitating the war in Gaza, they come off as the party of war, whether that is true or not, they play along with the war machine so don’t really disprove that. I think the no new wars under Trump mantra did cut through.

 

[Blue1980]

Harris and Biden did the right thing to issue gracious statements. Either way they would have been critised. What was the alternative? Storm the capital? I mean in 4 years he's never coming back. They need to bide their time and be better. History has had dozens and dozens of villians- Trump is just the latest.

Be good if they did more in their 4 years to sure up democratic institutions so no one can try what trump did again.

As I said in my mind Jan 6 would be instantly disqualifying for anyone to run for any public office ever and probably would have landed anyone else in jail. I feel I am being gaslit as some kind of cringe lib to even bring that up.

If democracy doesn’t matter anymore, may as well fight fire with fire. That won’t come from a Democratic Party, it will have to be a new movement.

 

[Blue1980]

Yeah doubt very much that's going to happen. All these things were predicted the first time and it didn't happen. Just because people hate him and scream it 100 times doesn't mean it's going to come true. Maybe, but I'd prefer to wait and see.

As has been pointed out, he’s got the whole party as loyalists now, and everyone around him will do whatever he says.

This ain’t 2020, let alone 2017. The Republican Party is unrecognisable from then.

I mean I feel people are only going to be believe he will do these things once he does them, and by then it’s too late.

Best case scenario is he will be happy he’s made his criminal charges go away, play golf for most of his term and go off into the sunset in 4 years time and without him around the sting of rigged elections sorta goes away without a cult of personality.

 

[Blue1980]

I've read too much history. I always expect the worse from people. Politicians are there to get re-elected, or eke out a career and/or get rich. The system is not set up for them to be noble and honest people. They're all dishonest and all liars when it suits them. Pretending one side is holy and virtuous and only the other side is evil is as wrong as it is hilarious.

The point is, the population of the US don't seem to care about perceived character nearly as much as Hollywood and the media think they should. To them, everything is about feelings. Compassion, empathy, we care (they really don't of course). TV chat show hosts - who are all millionaires - pretending they're concerned about the plight of the working class from high atop their mansions in LA or San Francisco. An awful lot of people can see through their bullshit now, realise they're every bit as hypocritical, far more censorious, and they've overwhelmingly rejected their platitudes and what they stand for.

Thing is it IS about feelings and vibes, it’s just very different to those from the Hollywood elite and coastal elites.

I’d argue majority of voters don’t know shit about policy and vote mainly on vibes, that’s the case for everyone. I’ve said many times a large percentage of people wouldn’t even know what left or right wing even mean.

You had people voting for trump then dem governors and senators all over the place, as well as pro trump but pro choice as well. We like to think and create narratives about one election result being ideological to the left/right when it isn’t really that at all.

 

[sdfc]

Thing is it IS about feelings and vibes, it’s just very different to those from the Hollywood elite and coastal elites.

I think it's mainly about the feelings and vibes about falling real income and knowing you're one major illness or injury away from bankruptcy.

I’d argue majority of voters don’t know shit about policy and vote mainly on vibes, that’s the case for everyone. I’ve said many times a large percentage of people wouldn’t even know what left or right wing even mean.

There's no functioning left wing in the US. The majority of voters don't realise that Trump's tariffs will make most of them poorer.

You had people voting for trump then dem governors and senators all over the place, as well as pro trump but pro choice as well. We like to think and create narratives about one election result being ideological to the left/right when it isn’t really that at all.

When people are feeling economically vulnerable populism is a winner.

 

[Blue1980]

On what basis, would Biden have been entitled to do that?

Presidential immunity apparently