Expansion A third team in Queensland? AFL acknowledges QLD3 as a 20th licence option

[Coolangatta]

Proximity to the Riverina region is potentially a massive positive for the Canberra bid, if they can utilise it correctly. We've all seen/heard of the ridiculous talent that's come from the Riverina (Bunton, Carey, Crawford and the Danihers just to name a few) and if they could combine that rich Riverina footy history with the local Canberra footy scene to create a seamless zone that's seen as the one area by players and fans alike, then you're loooking at a pretty strong supporter base + academy zone.

If Canberra is chosen as the 20th AFL licence, then I'd certainly be insisting on at least two of their games being played in Wagga Wagga every year so majority of Riverina footy fans can get to the games to support them and watch some of their local hereos play at the highest level in front of a 'hometown' crowd. Then you'll have hardcore Riverina fans that will be willing to drive the 3h to watch home games in Canberra because it's legitimately close enough to do that, but the masses need at least a couple with an hour or two of their hometown to get onboard.

Why so sure the Riverina would support Canberra? They’d watch them play but that doesn’t mean they’d support them (see Giants and Canberra).

Canberra would probably be one of the most hated teams in the game, but they could use that to their advantage.

I’m not sure they should risk Canberra splitting games like the Giants are. Play all 11 at Manuka.

And I’ve been told Wagga Wagga doesn’t have an AFL standard ground. They need that first.

I can see players from the Riverina playing for Canberra because they’re close to home but I don’t think that would translate to Riverina fans of the club.

 

[Walshawk]

Why so sure the Riverina would support Canberra? They’d watch them play but that doesn’t mean they’d support them (see Giants and Canberra).

Canberra would probably be one of the most hated teams in the game, but they could use that to their advantage.

I’m not sure they should risk Canberra splitting games like the Giants are. Play all 11 at Manuka.

And I’ve been told Wagga Wagga doesn’t have an AFL standard ground. They need that first.

I can see players from the Riverina playing for Canberra because they’re close to home but I don’t think that would translate to Riverina fans of the club.

Eventually it would if they have a southern NSW academy. Country folk are very parochial.

Also, Wagga doesn’t have a ground but Albury does. Maybe one game there.

 

[Coolangatta]

Eventually it would if they have a southern NSW academy. Country folk are very parochial.

Also, Wagga doesn’t have a ground but Albury does. Maybe one game there.

Perhaps you’re right, but the team would still be called “Canberra.” I just can’t see parochial country people going to bat for the cap… unless you call them the Canberra-Riverina Rams. Might work.

 

[terrybull]

I wonder if any VFL, SANFL or WAFL clubs would considering moving to get into the AFL?

East Brisbane Royals
South Sydney Panthers
Darwin Boroughs
Canberra Lions
Perth Bullants

 

[GC2015]

Why so sure the Riverina would support Canberra? They’d watch them play but that doesn’t mean they’d support them (see Giants and Canberra).

Canberra would probably be one of the most hated teams in the game, but they could use that to their advantage.

I’m not sure they should risk Canberra splitting games like the Giants are. Play all 11 at Manuka.

And I’ve been told Wagga Wagga doesn’t have an AFL standard ground. They need that first.

I can see players from the Riverina playing for Canberra because they’re close to home but I don’t think that would translate to Riverina fans of the club.

I'm not confident that they would initially embrace Canberra as their own team, but if it's a combined zone and the best Riverina talent ends up playing for Canberra in the AFL then a good portion of footy followers in the Riverina will eventually support them (probably as their second team to begin with) and see it as a team that represents their community at the national level.

They could even do what the NRL does and combine the two areas with a hyphen like Canberra-Riverina Football Club. I know they don't border each other, but it would be a great way to really capture that whole southern NSW + ACT area and make the majority of footy fans in that area feel like they are a part of it through the naming convention. If it doesn't work, then there's always the option to just change the name to Canberra Football Club.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I think the branding has to be Canberra. GWS is a good example of overcomplicating things trying to please everyone.

And again, the Giants are a good example of how playing too many games away can disrupt things for the core base.

I think Robertson Oval in Wagga is perfectly sized for one preseason and one AFLW match a year. At absolute most, one regular season match. But I'd be cautious of taking too much from Canberra, especially while they're establishing.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I wonder if any VFL, SANFL or WAFL clubs would considering moving to get into the AFL?

East Brisbane Royals
South Sydney Panthers
Darwin Boroughs
Canberra Lions
Perth Bullants

I wouldn't imagine so. Subiaco are Subiaco, their fans aren't going to want to be Canberra and lose access to the club which would have to essentially take a new identity. Its not their club entering the big league if they have no access to it.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I think the branding has to be Canberra. GWS is a good example of overcomplicating things trying to please everyone.

And again, the Giants are a good example of how playing too many games away can disrupt things for the core base.

I think Robertson Oval in Wagga is perfectly sized for one preseason and one AFLW match a year. At absolute most, one regular season match. But I'd be cautious of taking too much from Canberra, especially while they're establishing.

Tend to agree. At worst, something like Capital Districts to not exclude Queanbeyan and smaller surrounding towns; but just plain Canberra makes the most sense.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Tend to agree. At worst, something like Capital Districts to not exclude Queanbeyan and smaller surrounding towns; but just plain Canberra makes the most sense.

I think most in the surrounding towns would be fine with it being called Canberra.

I think calling them ACT would be limiting, but the "Canberra Region" is often used to describe the surrounding area. The Raiders played their first eight seasons out of Queanbeyan and were still called Canberra.

 

[terrybull]

I wouldn't imagine so. Subiaco are Subiaco, their fans aren't going to want to be Canberra and lose access to the club which would have to essentially take a new identity. Its not their club entering the big league if they have no access to it.

Yeah probably true with the others as well…

But in the case of the Lions I was thinking Fitzroy… but even they may not be interested anymore. But it would be nice of the AFL to offer them a return as an apology of what they did to the club and it’s supporters.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Yeah probably true with the others as well…

But in the case of the Lions I was thinking Fitzroy… but even they may not be interested anymore. But it would be nice of the AFL to offer them a return as an apology of what they did to the club and it’s supporters.

Its hard to see that happening, especially given according to the AFL (and disputed by many) Fitzroy merged. To then say Fitzroy relocated would be a bit of a backflip. Although AFL with double-speak .....

 

[GC2015]

I think the branding has to be Canberra. GWS is a good example of overcomplicating things trying to please everyone.

And again, the Giants are a good example of how playing too many games away can disrupt things for the core base.

I think Robertson Oval in Wagga is perfectly sized for one preseason and one AFLW match a year. At absolute most, one regular season match. But I'd be cautious of taking too much from Canberra, especially while they're establishing.

Genuine question - do rugby league fans living in the Riverina region follow the Raiders more than any other NRL teams? I'm guessing there's a smattering of different NRL clubs that are supported throughout the Riverina depending on players from those towns (e.g. Wagga Wagga may have more Parramatta fans due to Peter Sterling) but is there a higher number of Raiders fans than other parts of country NSW that don't have an NRL team themselves? The reason I ask is because I'm trying to establish whether Riverina residents are naturally drawn more to Canberra purely due to proximity.

 

[Daka]

Queensland can barely support two teams; Lions have done well in a resurgence, but they were struggling heavily for a few years with poor Gabba crowds.

The Gold Coast Suns cannot sell out their own 22k Stadium.

Even if the AFL acknowledges them as an option, they would be last behind every other state.

 

[Bjo187]

I'm not confident that they would initially embrace Canberra as their own team, but if it's a combined zone and the best Riverina talent ends up playing for Canberra in the AFL then a good portion of footy followers in the Riverina will eventually support them (probably as their second team to begin with) and see it as a team that represents their community at the national level.

They could even do what the NRL does and combine the two areas with a hyphen like Canberra-Riverina Football Club. I know they don't border each other, but it would be a great way to really capture that whole southern NSW + ACT area and make the majority of footy fans in that area feel like they are a part of it through the naming convention. If it doesn't work, then there's always the option to just change the name to Canberra Football Club.

I was actually the one that initially suggested Canberra riverina rams a few years ago. However since then I realised that Albury wodonga isn't in the riverina so would be excluded and the rams name actually reflects riverina, murrumbidgee, act, southern NSW anyway.

They could be named Canberra SNSW (whatever's) to capture that whole area and it doesn't over power the Canberra name as much, as it's just an acronym at the end.

 

[GC2015]

I was actually the one that initially suggested Canberra riverina rams a few years ago. However since then I realised that Albury wodonga isn't in the riverina so would be excluded and the rams name actually reflects riverina, murrumbidgee, act, southern NSW anyway.

They could be named Canberra SNSW (whatever's) to capture that whole area and it doesn't over power the Canberra name as much, as it's just an acronym at the end.

They could do what the Brisbane Lions (Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club) do and be officially registered as Canberra-Riverina Football Club/Canberra-Southern NSW Football Club but then refer to themselves by their team name e.g. Canberra Rams. I think the Cronulla Sharks do that as well and are officially known as the Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks Rugby League Football Club or CSSRLC for short.

 

[Coolangatta]

Yeah probably true with the others as well…

But in the case of the Lions I was thinking Fitzroy… but even they may not be interested anymore. But it would be nice of the AFL to offer them a return as an apology of what they did to the club and it’s supporters.

They’d have to come back as the Fitzroy Gorillas, their original name.

The Lions aren’t going back to being the Bears.

In any case, there’s zero chance of the 20th club being Victorian.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Queensland can barely support two teams; Lions have done well in a resurgence, but they were struggling heavily for a few years with poor Gabba crowds.

The Gold Coast Suns cannot sell out their own 22k Stadium.

Even if the AFL acknowledges them as an option, they would be last behind every other state.

That’s why the AFL is doing everything they can to manufacture long periods of success for GC, Brisbane, Sydney and GWS - part of ‘growing the game’ in the region is keeping those 4 teams as strong as possible for as long as they can. Draft concessions, ‘proper’ academies, salary cap concessions (they’ll be back), ambassador role money etc etc

Brisbane are the perfect example of why it’s so important to the league to keep them all better than average.

 

[Coolangatta]

Another way history could have gone was the AFL going to 18 teams instead of down to 16.

Brisbane remain the Bears, Roys move to Canberra, Tasmania joins as team 18. Why were Tassie overlooked in the late 90s or early 2000s!?

Then Gold Coast and Western Sydney come in later as teams 19 and 20.

We would not be talking about expansion right now and no Victorian club would have been booted out of the league.

Though I suppose the better one would’ve been the North-Fitzroy merger so at least supporters would see their team play in Melbourne, but they would have lost supporters, for sure.

In that scenario, you’d have had the same as we do now: GC 17, GWS 18, TAS 19 and you would hope ACT 20.

Only difference would be Fitzroy would still be in the comp as a merged entity. Not sure if the North Fitzroy Kangaroos would have had more members and crowds than North do now.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Genuine question - do rugby league fans living in the Riverina region follow the Raiders more than any other NRL teams? I'm guessing there's a smattering of different NRL clubs that are supported throughout the Riverina depending on players from those towns (e.g. Wagga Wagga may have more Parramatta fans due to Peter Sterling) but is there a higher number of Raiders fans than other parts of country NSW that don't have an NRL team themselves? The reason I ask is because I'm trying to establish whether Riverina residents are naturally drawn more to Canberra purely due to proximity.

Tbh, I don't really know about NRL support in the Riverina.

I would say it's probably a smattering, similar to AFL. As far as I can tell, the Raiders haven't actually had much focus on the Riverina until the last half a decade, so that may improve going forward.

I also don't think the Raiders have had that many Wagga players, so there's probably less reason historically for anybody to be drawn to them.

Personally, I know a few people in Canberra that are from Wagga. We definitely seem to be a natural place for them to move to, but not sure that would translate back.

 

[loco3]

Proximity to the Riverina region is potentially a massive positive for the Canberra bid, if they can utilise it correctly. We've all seen/heard of the ridiculous talent that's come from the Riverina (Bunton, Carey, Crawford and the Danihers just to name a few) and if they could combine that rich Riverina footy history with the local Canberra footy scene to create a seamless zone that's seen as the one area by players and fans alike, then you're loooking at a pretty strong supporter base + academy zone.

If Canberra is chosen as the 20th AFL licence, then I'd certainly be insisting on at least two of their games being played in Wagga Wagga every year so majority of Riverina footy fans can get to the games to support them and watch some of their local hereos play at the highest level in front of a 'hometown' crowd. Then you'll have hardcore Riverina fans that will be willing to drive the 3h to watch home games in Canberra because it's legitimately close enough to do that, but the masses need at least a couple with an hour or two of their hometown to get onboard.

I made a similar argument on a different forum a couple of weeks back, and was pretty quickly shut down by a Canberra local. Apparently there is a meaningful divide between Canberra and SNSW that would make it difficult attract a great deal of support in SNSW. The rugby codes have tried and had real trouble over the years. I think he said something like the raiders wouldn’t be in the top 5 most supported NRL clubs in SNSW.

That being said, I don’t think it shouldn’t be entertained, but it sounds like it would be challenging. Maybe starting with branding that appeals to a rural supporter base, and a game in Albury and/or Wagga every year would be a good place to start. But it would probably be a multi-generational project to overcome existing anti-Canberra perceptions in the region.

 

[Coolangatta]

I made a similar argument on a different forum a couple of weeks back, and was pretty quickly shut down by a Canberra local. Apparently there is a meaningful divide between Canberra and SNSW that would make it difficult attract a great deal of support in SNSW. The rugby codes have tried and had real trouble over the years. I think he said something like the raiders wouldn’t be in the top 5 most supported NRL clubs in SNSW.

That being said, I don’t think it shouldn’t be entertained, but it sounds like it would be challenging. Maybe starting with branding that appeals to a rural supporter base, and a game in Albury and/or Wagga every year would be a good place to start. But it would probably be a multi-generational project to overcome existing anti-Canberra perceptions in the region.

It’s not worth it. By all means have a Riverina academy for the Canberra club, it’ll be an attractive destination for local players.

For fans? Just let Canberra do all the heavy lifting. Upgrade Manuka and play all home games there.

 

[Black Haze]

Queensland can barely support two teams; Lions have done well in a resurgence, but they were struggling heavily for a few years with poor Gabba crowds.

The Gold Coast Suns cannot sell out their own 22k Stadium.

Even if the AFL acknowledges them as an option, they would be last behind every other state.

It was only a decade ago when people were saying Brisbane and Gold Coast should merge because Queensland can't sustain two teams. I'd rather see a second team in Geelong than a second team in Brisbane.

 

[GC2015]

I made a similar argument on a different forum a couple of weeks back, and was pretty quickly shut down by a Canberra local. Apparently there is a meaningful divide between Canberra and SNSW that would make it difficult attract a great deal of support in SNSW. The rugby codes have tried and had real trouble over the years. I think he said something like the raiders wouldn’t be in the top 5 most supported NRL clubs in SNSW.

That being said, I don’t think it shouldn’t be entertained, but it sounds like it would be challenging. Maybe starting with branding that appeals to a rural supporter base, and a game in Albury and/or Wagga every year would be a good place to start. But it would probably be a multi-generational project to overcome existing anti-Canberra perceptions in the region.

That's interesting. I suppose it's mostly dependent on what the AFL would want the identity of this hypothetical club to be. Do they want it to be a club that exclusively represents the capital of Australia or do they want a club that represents all of southern NSW, including the ACT?

Likewise, if they started a third Queensland team, they would need to decide what the identity of the club should be. Do they want it to be a second Brisbane club that may occasionally play games in other cities like the Sunshine Coast or do they want it to be a bit more ambiguous like the Dolphins in the NRL (who appear to loosely represent Brisbane, Moreton Bay and the Sunny Coast all at once)?

 

[Seeds]

As a queenslander that is ridiculous. Perth deserves a 3rd team. Not Queensland.

 

[terrybull]

They’d have to come back as the Fitzroy Gorillas, their original name.

The Lions aren’t going back to being the Bears.

In any case, there’s zero chance of the 20th club being Victorian.

Canberra-Fitzroy Gorillas or Maroons then…