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NoobPie said:
You have to wonder if the NRL has put way too much weight on maximising its TV dollars in the shorter term to its long term detriment. The 6 oclock Friday game, particularly for Sydney games, seems almost like self-sabotage. Presumably Foxtel paid some premium for that game, but will it really be worth it in the long term?
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precarious said:
Agree. It seems wise of the AFL to place a priority on attendance. Low crowds feed on themselves, and may eventually have ramifications for ratings and the game more generally.

Maybe the NRL execs are thinking (i) they can get a bounce with crowds once the stadium refurbishments are done and build some momentum from there, and (ii) they will have greater control of the fixture (though not time slots) from next year onward, which would enable them to place their bigger match-ups in more popular time slots (at the cost of some ratings).

Seems a risk even allowing for stadium refurbishment. Then there's NSW governments' poor track record on following through with infrastructure promises.
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Its funny how Foxtel has finally got full control of the NRL tv rights. Now they Already are doing the exact same thing the AFL is doing.'

-Foxtel have all the NRL games live
-Like the AFL, NRL are having Thursday night games
-Like the AFL, NRL have their own 24/7 foxtel channel.
 

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Freomaniac said:
You have to assume mainly NSW watched that.
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Why? There were only 18k watching it on FTA in Sydney. It was the Saturday twilight game that usually rates well given it's later in the day and there is no competing AFL match. There's nothing in the ratings history to indicate that NSW have ever been the main viewers of AFL games or Giants games in particular.
 
BobbyMorri said:
i dont think the FFA aim was to grow the sport. Frank Lowy had a dream and that was to host the world cup. i think it was just that simple. it was a nice dream but i kinda happy we didnt win with hindsight. Qatar will be the best karma for Sepp and his buddies at FIFA. and it will let out stadiums grow naturally.

that last point is completely unrealistic in Australia. not even the AFL own their stadiums or have full ownership. every sport in this country rents a stadium. very few own it. that is because most stadiums are built with public money.

any world bid, be it Olympic, rugby, cricket or soccer, needs the support of the other codes in some way or another. the AFL tried to protect its shareholder's interests so you cant hate them on that. i just wish they went another way about it. the same goes with the FFA handling of the whole affair as well. it was just messy.

it will be interesting to see if the FFA have learnt anything regarding demands for the upcoming Women's world cup bid for 2023. IMO, we should team up with NZ just to make it easier for us.
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Regardless of the A-leagues current shape, It has been better now than what it was back in 2011. But there was a difference Between Russia hosting it in 2018 and Qatar in 2022. Russia has some positive points on the board. They have history in their national side and league. Their national team is good, Their league is good and has been around for decades. They are a European country and their location will be good for Europeans and Asians because they don't have to watch the world cup games at 3am. Because they have a good strong league, they already have got some good stadiums too. So they use the stadiums that are home to their top Russian clubs, not just their national stadium in Moscow.

Qatars national team is crap, Their league is crap, They don't have a strong and passionate history like the Russians. Plus they didn't have any stadiums, they had to make them. They did host the 2011 Asian cup and that was crap besides Australia getting into the final.

NoobPie said:
Hilarious false equivalence

It was the ffa that created the mess. It was their World Cup that they wanted to host in the afl's season using the afl's grounds requiring for the afl to suspend their season and relinquish long term contract rights to stadiums they have built. They conducted themselves appallingly to this end, with a disturbing lack of respect and entitlement

To equate this with the afl standing its ground accomodating another sports World Cup bid is almost to engage in self parody

What is certainly parodic is the 2022 World Cup now being played in November December. This after the cultural cringers assured us that the all important European soccer leagues couldn't shut down their seasons while demanding the afl shut down theirs
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For all the arguments I have had with you Noob pie, I agree with your post. And you made good points with some of them too. 1st off the world cup bid was a mess, not because of Qatar winning it by questionable means but also the fact that the Australian government lost 40 million on it. FFA didn't have 40 million back in 2009. Not like now when next seasons tv rights deal is pulling 51 million a year for the next 6 years.

See if the FFA wasted the 40 million themselves rather the Government doing it. The government would be less pissed obviously. Australia did host the 2011 Asian cup and only used 4-5 stadiums. how many of them were oval shaped grounds? None of them as it was the rectangular arenas like SFS and Suncorp hosted the games.

Does the FFA have money to bid for the 2026 or 2030 world cups? Possibly they could fork it out with their new 6 year tv rights deal starting next season. But its too much to waste away another 40-50 million. As for the Europeans refusing to take a break... World cup is usually around june-july. MLS in the US and Asian Leagues such as Korea and Japan play their league between March-November. They take 3-4 weeks off during the world cup.

BringBackTorps said:
How could soccer (or RL or RU) control their own stadiums? Their crowds are so poor, they are in no financial position to control anything re stadia.

It also raises the issue, with such poor & declining RL & RU crowds, & stagnant A League, of how the NSW govt. can justify spending $1,600,000 on Parramatta -& refurbishment of ANZ & SFS?

Edit: $1.6 billion
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Adelaide united are not doing too bad despite struggling at Hindmarsh this season.
 
The ARU has released its regd. participation nos. for 2016.

Total regd. nos.273, 095 (+2.1% cf 2015. Regd. participant is defined as playing 5 or more games, or "structured sessions" -inc. Game On program).

Contact 7's is up 37%, non-contact Viva 7's up by 11,400. Women's up strongly in all segments. The 5 week " Game On" Intro. RU program for 5y.o -11 y.o had big increase to 54,890 (Double 2015).

Adult contact RU XV regd. nos.: -0.43% (but all states up, except NSW)

U12 -U18 contact XV RU regd. nos.: -7.5%

U6 -U11 modified RU regd. nos.: +3.5%
This is NOT only RU jnr. players in a comp. The 3.5% increase appears to include 25,000 Game On participants, a 5 week "in-house" primary school intro. RU program.
Some might suggest the ARU are including these Game On ( non-comp.) players with U6 -U11 comp. RU players to "inflate"their total U6 -U11 nos.

http://www.rugbynews.net.au/aru-release-rugby-participation-figures-ahead-of-agm/
(then click on search, then input "2016 participation")
 
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Garlic muncher said:
IMO there are millions of people in Sydney who have no interest in Rugby League or RU or any sport for that matter and probably don't know or whatsmore care about the difference between the poor mans rugby and the rich one.
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Actually, I think most people (including non-sporting people) in Sydney do know there's a difference largely because of the class division aspect.

Sydney is stratified and divided. The establishment here operates differently than in Melbourne. To put it mildly, the Sydney establishment is not exactly into "nation building".

The mindset often seems to be: popular = low brow; niche/unpopular = refined. Ergo RU > RL. Let the rabble do their thing out in the boondocks and keep the better things in life for ourselves.

Because of this, you find quite a bit of prejudice/snobbery towards RL from middle/upper-middle class people and also wannabes/aspirationals.

This partly explains the RL chip on the shoulder.

It has implications for AFL in Sydney, as others here have noted. In particular, GWS has strategic importance in trying to break down the Sydneysider's perception of AFL as a "white collar" sport. The demographics of the swans' fan base feeds into this. The suburbs where AFL is strongest have traditionally been private school/RU areas.

Also, because AFL transcends class boundaries, it has political and corporate contacts similar to rugby union, and this also feeds into the impression that AFL is a game for the top end of town rather than the battler.
 
Freomaniac said:
Its funny how Foxtel has finally got full control of the NRL tv rights. Now they Already are doing the exact same thing the AFL is doing.'

-Foxtel have all the NRL games live
-Like the AFL, NRL are having Thursday night games
-Like the AFL, NRL have their own 24/7 foxtel channel.
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That's true, although I think points 1 and 3 are pluses for fans of both codes. I more had in mind the 6pm Friday game and Thursday night games being almost every round..

Having said that, early signs suggest that, used wisely, the 6pm slot may end up working much better for supporters (and attendees) than I expected.

Personally, I also like Thursday Night sport -- it is just my impression that this is a minority preference, especially with families.
 
"For all the arguments I have had with you Noob pie, I agree with your post. And you made good points with some of them too. 1st off the world cup bid was a mess, not because of Qatar winning it by questionable means but also the fact that the Australian government lost 40 million on it. FFA didn't have 40 million back in 2009. Not like now when next seasons tv rights deal is pulling 51 million a year for the next 6 years.

What has got me stuffed is why would any TV outfit pay 50 million for local soccer that is rating at between 40 - 50,000?

It dosent make business sense and advertisers would not be lining up for those paltry figures even CH 31 get better figures for many of their shows!
 
precarious said:
Actually, I think most people (including non-sporting people) in Sydney do know there's a difference largely because of the class division aspect.

Sydney is stratified and divided. The establishment here operates differently than in Melbourne. To put it mildly, the Sydney establishment is not exactly into "nation building".

The mindset often seems to be: popular = low brow; niche/unpopular = refined. Ergo RU > RL. Let the rabble do their thing out in the boondocks and keep the better things in life for ourselves.

Because of this, you find quite a bit of prejudice/snobbery towards RL from middle/upper-middle class people and also wannabes/aspirationals.
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Partly true, but not in all areas. Where I live, on the northern beaches, there is a lot less of the RL/RU divide. A large number of kids play both (as RL is Saturdays/RU is Sundays). The majority of players at my local suburban rugby club are tradies, with a large proportion of PI's.

I only got involved in RU because of my son - I played, coached and umpired AR most of my life from age 14 to 30 (then having a daughter the netball era kicked in). I had him in Auskick as soon as he was old enough, and coached him in Under 9's AR, but he wanted to switch to RU at U10, and has played through to U18's. Interestingly the main reasons he wanted to switch were that he wanted to tackle, and more importantly the sport that played at the oval next to our house happened to be RU.

That clubs registered junior numbers are actually up by over 15% this year - mainly through the introduction of girls only U8 and U9 teams.
 

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TigerCraig said:
Partly true, but not in all areas. Where I live, on the northern beaches, there is a lot less of the RL/RU divide. A large number of kids play both (as RL is Saturdays/RU is Sundays). The majority of players at my local suburban rugby club are tradies, with a large proportion of PI's.

I only got involved in RU because of my son - I played, coached and umpired AR most of my life from age 14 to 30 (then having a daughter the netball era kicked in). I had him in Auskick as soon as he was old enough, and coached him in Under 9's AR, but he wanted to switch to RU at U10, and has played through to U18's. Interestingly the main reasons he wanted to switch were that he wanted to tackle, and more importantly the sport that played at the oval next to our house happened to be RU.

That clubs registered junior numbers are actually up by over 15% this year - mainly through the introduction of girls only U8 and U9 teams.
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Rugby though is a working class sport in the PI's and NZ, here in Perth, kids of SA extraction will go to private schools, whilst PI kids or Kiwis will go to Government schools, whilst the SA kids will play just rugby, the PI kids will play both.

Sounds like a similar situation on the Northern Beaches with PI's.

The real issue with Rugby is that via Australian born rugby families the game is overwhelmingly a private school elite sport.

That is the power base of rugby, the decision makers and bean counters.

That is the way Rugby has wanted it for 100 years and now they get what they want in more ways than one.
 
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Garlic muncher said:
Rugby though is a working class sport in the PI's and NZ, here in Perth, kids of SA extraction will go to private schools, whilst PI kids or Kiwis will go to Government schools, whilst the SA kids will play just rugby, the PI kids will play both.

Sounds like a similar situation on the Northern Beaches with PI's.

The real issue with Rugby is that via Australian born rugby families the game is overwhelmingly a private school elite sport.

That is the power base of rugby, the decision makers and bean counters.

That is the way Rugby has wanted it for 100 years and now they get what they want in more ways than one.
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There is definitely that element. When we go to play teams on the upper north shore or eastern suburbs we are often treated like the poor relations. When we play other northern beaches or Sutherland shire clubs it is different.

I saw the same thing in the UK. In London RU was very upper class, but in Wales and the west country (Bath, Gloucester) it was more of an everyman game
 
Our Game said:
What has got me stuffed is why would any TV outfit pay 50 million for local soccer that is rating at between 40 - 50,000?

It dosent make business sense and advertisers would not be lining up for those paltry figures even CH 31 get better figures for many of their shows!
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Maybe they know something we can't know from the ratings. (?)

As Garlic muncher noted re the most recent swans game, the FTA figure in Sydney basically didn't budge when compared with the away game of the previous round with 35k at the SCG (and so not at home in front of the TV). On the face of it, that makes it seem quite possible than no one at the SCG that night is connected to a (FTA) ratings box.

Not sure of the exact population figures relevant to Oztam, but speaking roughly, if boxes were distributed randomly, you'd expect on average about 11 people in a crowd of 35k should be connected to a ratings box. (Taking the 5-city metro population, plus Geelong and Gold Coast, as being about 16m and dividing by 5,250 boxes implies 1 box represents about 3000 people).

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@...ummary&prodno=3218.0&issue=2015-16&num=&view=

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Australia_by_population

http://www.oztam.com.au/AboutOzTAMRatings.aspx

As we all know, if the boxes are not distributed randomly, the ratings are basically worthless for our purposes, especially for smaller market segments (e.g. AFL in Sydney or NRL in Adelaide or A-League in Brisbane).

I listened very closely to an interview with an Oztam representative that the Wookie linked to a while back, and no straight answers were given when it came to how the boxes are actually allocated and under what circumstances a box was removed from a household.

I am highly skeptical that a household with non-mainstream viewing habits (such as being heavy viewers of A-League and not much else) would keep its box for long, especially if the household claimed to have guests over, even thought this practice in the case of mainstream viewing appears to occur without similar removal.

Our priority here is to know how many people are watching various sports. We'd be better served, to this end, by an independent government agency conducting the analysis.

Our priority, though, is not at all the priority of the networks or the network-owned Oztam. Their priority is to pump up mainstream programs as good vehicles for advertisers.

I suspect that with technology as it is presently, Fox at the very least and quite possibly the FTA networks may know how many TV sets are tuned in (though not how many people are watching each set). This information would be relevant to subscriptions and TV rights deals and, for all we know, may often contradict the ratings info generated by Oztam.
 
TigerCraig said:
There is definitely that element. When we go to play teams on the upper north shore or eastern suburbs we are often treated like the poor relations. When we play other northern beaches or Sutherland shire clubs it is different.

I saw the same thing in the UK. In London RU was very upper class, but in Wales and the west country (Bath, Gloucester) it was more of an everyman game
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I would appreciate if you could refer to my post #2182 above , re ARU 2016 regd. nos.

You may also be aware of the controversy re the Morgan Poll 2 weeks ago -which stated that, from 2001-2016, regd. contact RU nos. in Aust. have dropped from 148,000 -55,000 for players 14+
(ARU strongly disputed the Morgan poll figures -but Bob Dwyer implied the 55,000 is correct, & called publicly for Pulver & the ARU board to resign 5 days ago!)

Would you like to offer your subjective views re the following:-
For Syd. Clubs only (ie not school) contact RU (not 7's) male nos. in Syd. in 2016:-
1. U 6 -U18, approx. % rise or fall in SJRU, cf 2015
2.Colts & Subbies, approx.% rise or fall

3.2017, ditto U6 -U18
4.2017, ditto Colts & Subbies
( We know Shute Shield has scrapped 5th grade)

5.A stab at what % of Game On U 6-12 players also play in a Club or school RU. comp.(not 7's)?

6.For those leaving Syd. RU, why? And are they transferring to other sports? If so, which ones?

7.Finally, heard any info. pertaining to % + or - in Brisbane club jnr. & snr. contact RU regd. nos.in 2016 & 2017?

Thankyou
 
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BringBackTorps said:
I would appreciate if you could refer to my post #2182 above , re ARU 2016 regd. nos.

You may also be aware of the controversy re the Morgan Poll 2 weeks ago -which stated that, from 2001-2016, regd. contact RU nos. in Aust. have dropped from 148,000 -55,000 for players 14+
(ARU strongly disputed the Morgan poll figures -but Bob Dwyer implied the 55,000 is correct, & called publicly for Pulver & the ARU board to resign 5 days ago!)

Would you like to offer your subjective views re the following:-
For Syd. Clubs only (ie not school) contact RU (not 7's) male nos. in Syd. in 2016:-
1. U 6 -U18, approx. % rise or fall in SJRU, cf 2015
2.Colts & Subbies, approx.% rise or fall

3.2017, ditto U6 -U18
4.2017, ditto Colts & Subbies
( We know Shute Shield has scrapped 5th grade)

5.A stab at what % of Game On U 6-12 players also play in a Club or school RU. comp.(not 7's)?

6.For those leaving Syd. RU, why? And are they transferring to other sports? If so, which ones?

7.Finally, heard any info. pertaining to % + or - in Brisbane club jnr. & snr. contact RU regd. nos.in 2016 & 2017?

Thankyou
Click to expand...

Hi. I'm no expert, I'm not privy to the big picture or stats and have no interest or involvement in 7's.

Also, I never had any involvement in RU until my early 40's (I was a "heathen" Aussie Rules person in 1980's-90's Sydney and Newcastle) so am not really enmeshed in the culture and background. I do enjoy playing Over 35's RU now though, and that has given me the chance to tour and play in places like Japan and Wales.

"Contact" in RU means Under 8's up, as U6's and U7's are touch only. U6 to U9 are termed "minis" and are not run by Sydney Junior RU, but by the local districts, and don't have scores kept or competition tables. Numbers in those age groups have grown significantly (at least in the Manly and Warringah districts) over the last couple of years, and there has been the start of girl only teams. Anecdotally registration cost has been a draw - as it is around a third of what soccer charge for similar age.

"Juniors" runs from U10 to U18, administered by SJRU on a Sydney wide basis. Under 10's and 11's seem to be growing - the competitions now run to the "I" grade (so 9 grades of generally 8 teams). The big drop off has been in 13's and up. Its always been that way in most organised sports but has accelerated in rugby. One reason is that the schools are being a lot tougher in "encouraging" players not to play both school and club. Size disparities are also an issue, although there is a mechanism to get dispensations to play down an age group (often kids dont want to though as it means not playing with their mates). Also there was a focus by some clubs over the last 3 or 4 years on elite players which led to the forming of "super" teams which pulled the best 4 or 5 players from each club into one team in each district. Unfortunately the lesser talented players were often lost and gave the game away.

Subbies ebbs and flows. Some traditionally strong clubs, such as Newport, have had to drop down a division as they can no longer field 4 senior teams plus U21 Colts, but new clubs keep popping up. My club (Dee Why) came back into Subbies after a hiatus of a few years off the back of an influx of ex-juniors coming back after a dabble in Shute Shield Colts and RL players who wanted a more social atmosphere. Similarly Wakehurst and Collaroy have returned over the last couple of years.

The 2017 Subbies comp doesn't start for another couple of weeks so we will see more then as to how numbers stack up - as Subbies players are notoriously late trainers/registerers (I don't think my club has a single player officially registered yet, but over 30 have trained and they have played 2 trial games). In the lower grades players are generally being introduced to each other in the dressing room before the first game.

Personally I think Subbies Colts should be reduced to U19 or U20. There is a big drop off as boys come out of U18's as the step up to U21 is a big one. They will often come back a few years later but not always. My son has stopped playing this year for that reason. He is 18 and not a real big boy and has decided to have a year off. There was a midweek Under 85kg comp run for a few years which was good, but it has lapsed now as the Grade and Subbies Colts coaches didn't want their players involved.

As for where they go, I only know of the kids I know through my son and daughter and their friends, so 18-22 year olds, but all of those I can think of who dropped out of RU (or RL/AR/netball for that matter) are now playing no organised sport. They are generally working weekends or surfing
 
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FYI, Latest rego figures for my club are Juniors 82 players in 4 teams - U10, U11, U12, U14 (2016 - 51 players in 3 teams U10, U11, U13); Minis 91 players in 10 teams (2016 - 63 players in 7 teams).

U12 up play 15 a side, U10 and U11 play 12 a side and minis generally play 7 or 8 a side.
 
Allan Jones, Broadcaster & ex-Wallabies coach, yesterday interviewed C. Clyne ARU Chairman FACE -TO -FACE in one of the most scathing sports' interviews ever conducted. He said:-
. Clyne, Pulver, & all the ARO Board must resign immediately.
."... I put to you that the people on the Board of Australian Rugby aren't qualified to do that job...I think quite frankly most of you know bugger all about the game, and how to get results...".
. Grassroots rugby has been ignored by the ARU, which is its most pressing problem.
."Since 2007, this crowd (ARU Board- my words) has spent $777 million. What have we got to show for it?".
."You people (ie ARU Board-my words) pretend there is not a problem".

Clyne said:-
."We (ARU -my words) are not putting enough money to support the grassroots".
."What we (ARU) can't afford to do is to continue to put money into super franchises at expense of grassroots".

Peter Fitzsimmons in SMH today has written that the failure of the ARU since 1997, when RU went professional, to properly fund grassroots RU is the major cause of RU's many problems.

Super Aust. crowds & TV ratings are experiencing significant falls -& it is almost certain there will be subsequent reduction in Foxtel payments due to this decline, & the loss of content (with likely removal of the force). Where will the ARU obtain sufficient funds to boost grassroots RU - to reverse the long term decline in RU contact XV regd. nos?

IMO, the biggest winner from the removal of the Force will be RL.
The NRL, cashed up with a big $1.9 billion rights deal & very strong Ratings, is almost certain to expand into Perth. The NRL will quickly take-over the healthy RU regd. player nos. & respectable Force crowds. And the 2 hour time difference is perfect to broadcast into Eastern states prime viewing times, increasing the value of the TV rights.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union-n...-chairman-cameron-clyne-201740412-gvjkis.html
 
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Thu STV: #AFL #FoxFooty #AFLEaglesSwans National: 357k (Metro: Syd 34k Mel 141k Bri 20k Ade 39k Per 55k)

Thu TV: #AFL 7mate #AFLEaglesSwans 180k (Sydney 42k Perth 138k)

You would have to conclude disappointing ratings in Sydney.

But what i would point out is last week for a Swans home game against Collingwood (on a Fri night) that there was 35k at the ground, yet 44k watched on fox and 40 on FTA.

Swans Home game - 84 combined FTA and Fox ( yet also 35k at ground) Friday night

Swans Away game - 76 combined FTA and fox- Thursday night against traditional rival WCE

Make of that what you will.

I also might point out that Brisbane FTA outrated Sydney FTA for that game

FriTV #AFL #AFLSwansPies 917k: Seven 517k (Mel 407k Ade 110k) 7mate 173k (Syd 40k Bri 42k Per 92k) Regional 227k (Vic 95k Tas 42k SNSW 26k)
 
Garlic muncher said:
But what i would point out is last week for a Swans home game against Collingwood (on a Fri night) that there was 35k at the ground, yet 44k watched on fox and 40 on FTA.

Swans Home game - 84 combined FTA and Fox ( yet also 35k at ground) Friday night

Swans Away game - 76 combined FTA and fox- Thursday night against traditional rival WCE

Make of that what you will.
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That the same tiny number of people who are both Swans fans and who have ratings boxes watch most weeks but don't go to the games?

Tv ratings are a sham. They are emphatically less relevant than even opinion polls are and bear even less resemblance to reality. The amazing thing is that so much depends on these ridiculously make believe figures. Kinda like the stock market in that respect.
 
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