AFL can't compete with the game of globalisation

[aCunningPlan]

Hyperbolic really, just about any major sporting code showing off their best talent would sell out, given the supply of that level of quality is so low here for many sports.

Would you choose to go and watch AFL - a sport in Victoria that you can watch live 3-4 times over the weekend over 24 weeks, or a one off chance to watch the biggest soccer side in the world?
I love my football (soccer) and ended up watching the Real Madrid match over the footy on Friday as it was unique and more entertaining given the AFLs nonsensical decision to play the worst side in the league on Friday nights 7 times.
If 2 of the biggest NBA/NFL teams came to Victoria, I'd probably watch that live over AFL as well, because you don't get to see those sports played here at that elite level.

As for FIFA 15 and those games, AFL just doesn't translate well to gaming, nor do AFL developers have the budget of a FIFA. FIFA is a simple, fun game, that for many people turns a boring 90min sport into an exciting 10min thrill. FIFA doesn't represent the game of soccer that well outside of the official names and teams, it just captures the fun aspects by generating scoring chances every 30-60 seconds.

As for kids in school yards playing all the time? Again, soccer is simpler and far safer to play with little to no supervision. Get a ball, put some bags down for goal posts and you're sorted. you can play 1v1 up to 11v11, this isn't so easy with footy. I used to always play soccer at school, the only time we'd play footy was king of the pack. But the vast majority of my friends still followed Aussie Rules, it's just a lot easier to organise a soccer match.

Finally, if soccer does continue to rise - you won't be getting the best players hanging around Australia, they will be packing up their stuff and heading to Europe. So the kids here will never be learning from the best, or interacting with them in any meaningful way. Their heroes are Ronaldo's, Messi's etc. people who they'll likely never meet (or even understand). There is no money to be made in the A-league, it's all in Europe and I don't see that changing - ever!
Moving to Europe is a massive deal, a lot of kids may enjoy football, but they all support Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal, not Melbourne Heart or Perth Glory. So the prospect of soccer overtaking footy anytime soon seems very low, especially considering anyone with any talent will leave the country.

That would be great if more Australians made it in European leagues, the national team could go further in the World Cup then! First champions of Asia, then the world! I love your optimism.

 

[00Stinger]

Soccer will never over take AFL here is Australia....................the matches in the US have attracted 100k to the games, do you think the NFL is worried?

What i find funny is the elements that are turning people off AFL and the common elements in soccer. Low scoring, congested, not much action, over defensive ext.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

It's hardly a surprise that two of the biggest round ball game clubs from two of the biggest leagues in the world could draw a good crowd. The first Rugby League State of Origin in Melbourne did too.

Someone mentioned soccer being called the sleeping giant for the last 10 years. I've been hearing that for the last 30. As far as kids participating at junior levels is concerned, I believe soccer has had that over Aussie rules for roughly the same amount of time. i think netball might be even more popular.

The tribalism that is now entrenched in our culture with Australian Rules Football will continue to dominate the winter sporting landscape in this country (at least in the Southern / Central / Western states) for a very long time to come. As long as the powers-that-be don't just sit idly by and figure 'things are good for us now, we don't have to do anything" then I struggle to see how it will change any time soon.

Aussie Rules has one thing going for it over pretty well any other male dominated team sport you can point at worldwide: female attendance.

The NFL has easily the highest average crowd numbers of any sporting code. Nobody is claiming that to be a threat. I hear they're still doing OK in the USA, despite the increased interest in soccer there (which I put mainly down to Beckham, but more recently the women's world cup). It's a lot easier for European teams to travel there too.

I thought I had seen a recent article about average attendances of sporting codes worldwide, listing the AFL average crowds as 4th in the world. The only article mentioning that I can now find though dates back to early 2013, although this wiki article has the AFL at 5th for average weekly attendance (with the IPL having pushed it out of the top 4)

 

[smasha]

The real sleeping giant in Australia is the Richmond Football Club!

 

[Sausages]

You guys know AFL crowds are up in 2015 don't you? For the 3rd straight year?

Yet A-League crowds have fallen for their last 2 seasons and NRL crowds are down for the 3rd straight year.

I really fail to see what people are talking about. If there was a clear trend, then sure. But if anything the trend is going the other way.

And financial powerhouses like Man City are happy to prop up some of our A-League teams in an effort to provide more talent pool and thus a path to international stardom. The AFL cannot compete with the effect of globalisation of sport.

We need to stop rabbiting on about how big and good the product is and look rather towards the GAA - they don't give a stuff about nobody loving their indigenous sports and take great pride in the fact no bastard plays it anywhere else - this insular, patriotic approach has yielded a competition which isn't reliant on expansion.

Down AFL House way though, unless there's a new team every 5 minutes, they feel there is no scope for growth. It's a destructive, corporate approach to a game which should be championed simply BECAUSE nobody else plays it.

 

[McCrann]

AFL has more and more each day become a boring and draining sport to watch. It's hard to watch a lot of games these days and I haven't attended as many games as I've wanted to this season and I'm a full blues member

I watch all Blues games and might flick on to watch a half of Kangaroos or St Kilda play but that's about it. AFL I hope keep loosing ratings and attendance to other codes to clean up areas of the game which are pushing supporters away

How are Carlton going this year? I have to be honest, I haven't thought Carlton have been playing particularly well of late.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

And financial powerhouses like Man City are happy to prop up some of our A-League teams in an effort to provide more talent pool and thus a path to international stardom. The AFL cannot compete with the effect of globalisation of sport.

We need to stop rabbiting on about how big and good the product is and look rather towards the GAA - they don't give a stuff about nobody loving their indigenous sports and take great pride in the fact no bastard plays it anywhere else - this insular, patriotic approach has yielded a competition which isn't reliant on expansion.

Down AFL House way though, unless there's a new team every 5 minutes, they feel there is no scope for growth. It's a destructive, corporate approach to a game which should be championed simply BECAUSE nobody else plays it.

I think the AFL would be more concerned about the state of the game in NSW and QLD, than where it is at in the US or NZ. As they should be. Having those expansion clubs is obviously a big hit both financially, and also attendance-wise with both of those expansion clubs dragging down the average weekly attendance.

Everyone in Sydney loves a winner. As GWS continue to rise, so will their crowds. They do need to work on converting / attracting newcomers to the sport though. I sense most of their current crowd and members (yes, I personally know both of them) are already Aussie Rules fans, following GWS as their "second team".

 

[Moody Blue]

My son went to all three games. He paid $0 for the tickets, because they were gifted by a friend's Super fund. Some people paid big dollars to see a pre-season practice match, which was forgettable and there were thousands of freebies. It won't be long before the EPL start exporting some of their games to our country and that would be interesting. Say Man Utd-v-Liverpool or God forbid Arsenal, for a guaranteed fee which would far exceed what they could make in the UK. Will this increase the interest in the A league? Probably not. The A League need another 4-6 teams to make it interesting.

 

[Moody Blue]

How are Carlton going this year? I have to be honest, I haven't thought Carlton have been playing particularly well of late.

Carlton is third from the bottom and just had their biggest loss in their history. Not doing to well at the moment. BTW have you been able to get the 1966 Grand Final colorized yet? Must be depressing watching the only win in Black and White.

 

[McCrann]

Grid Iron will never take over the world, same with basketball, the American product is too good, participation is increasing though but it will never take over here, they're acquired tastes as far as I'm concerned, though basketball has the bigger reach due to more countries playing it

Look at basketball here, it's a basketcase professionally, it's a junior and amateur sport and that's it.

Football is mainly the sport of Europe and South America with their strong football background, it is growing in Asia though through the strength of the money from sheikhs and stuff, while Africa has barely no money behind it. Australia are just behind the U.S imo in the sport, if the MLS goes ahead of the NBA and NFL then that'll be a huge player.

Aussie Rules will always be number 1 here, the AFL needs to find a happy-medium with the game off field and on field then just stick to it, it's too business/$$$ oriented currently. As long as they keep pumping money into grassroots and keep participation rates high through cheap playing costs then the game will be healthy here. Football/Soccer is way too expensive still in the grassroots, most junior season's cost anywhere between $750-$2000 per participant as far as what I've heard, Aussie Rules ain't that much.

You contradict yourself in the same sentence! Amazing.

"it's too business/$$$ oriented currently. As long as they keep pumping money into grassroots and keep participation rates high through cheap playing costs then the game will be healthy here."

Just why do you think it is cheap to pay??????

Can you connect the dots on that one????

 

[Papa G]

GWS will never work. It is Rugby League heartland with a huge and growing soccer pedigree. The AFL are wasting their time and money there.

They really should be suring up the heartland states. As much as some people will disagree, this means getting rid 2 of the weak Vic teams perhaps merging North and Footscray to cover the Western suburbs and do something with Melbourne and giving Tasmania a team before they are lost too. Gold Coast take too much away from Brisbane. A strong club in each of Sydney and Brisbane is all that is justifiable, 8 strong clubs in Vic, 2 in each of WA/SA and 1 in NSW, QLD and Tasmania. 8,2,2,1,1,1 are the magic numbers. Strong League, strong clubs, no bullshit.

 

[Blue1980]

I hardly think the AFL is in much trouble from an interest point of view. Its more that some talented athletes may take up soccer instead of aussie rules.

But even then, you have to be fairly elite to be able to make a better living out of soccer than aussie rules. Unless to are good enough to move to Europe, an aussie soccer player plying his trade in the A-League as a good average player would make less than a good average aussie rules player.

Also currently 10 a-league sides v 18 AFL sides.

I would love for our soccer team to become stronger and become a force on a world stage and the a-league to rise to the level of a mid tier European league. That should be soccer's realistic aim, I think all codes can co-exist without a problem. Do people think the MCG will suddenly become vacant throughout winter if soccer gets more popular?

I think cricket faces greater problems, especially the long form of the game. Need much more creative invention from administrators, day/night tests are a good start.

 

[McCrann]

Actually a darn good question

What do you think about Rugby and their tendency to constantly change their pointscoring system? Or NFL for that matter?

Do you think the AFL should change the points system every few years?

 

[McCrann]

Carlton is third from the bottom and just had their biggest loss in their history. Not doing to well at the moment. BTW have you been able to get the 1966 Grand Final colorized yet? Must be depressing watching the only win in Black and White.

Maybe you missed the post I was replying to - a Carlton fan saying the AFL wasn't particularly enjoyable this year - and thus had issues.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

Maybe you missed the post I was replying to - a Carlton fan saying the AFL wasn't particularly enjoyable this year - and thus had issues.

he's a moody one that Moody Blue

 

[Slax]

It's hardly a surprise that two of the biggest round ball game clubs from two of the biggest leagues in the world could draw a good crowd. The first Rugby League State of Origin in Melbourne did too.

Someone mentioned soccer being called the sleeping giant for the last 10 years. I've been hearing that for the last 30. As far as kids participating at junior levels is concerned, I believe soccer has had that over Aussie rules for roughly the same amount of time. i think netball might be even more popular.

The tribalism that is now entrenched in our culture with Australian Rules Football will continue to dominate the winter sporting landscape in this country (at least in the Southern / Central / Western states) for a very long time to come. As long as the powers-that-be don't just sit idly by and figure 'things are good for us now, we don't have to do anything" then I struggle to see how it will change any time soon.

Aussie Rules has one thing going for it over pretty well any other male dominated team sport you can point at worldwide: female attendance.

The NFL has easily the highest average crowd numbers of any sporting code. Nobody is claiming that to be a threat. I hear they're still doing OK in the USA, despite the increased interest in soccer there (which I put mainly down to Beckham, but more recently the women's world cup). It's a lot easier for European teams to travel there too.

I thought I had seen a recent article about average attendances of sporting codes worldwide, listing the AFL average crowds as 4th in the world. The only article mentioning that I can now find though dates back to early 2013, although this wiki article has the AFL at 5th for average weekly attendance (with the IPL having pushed it out of the top 4)

Few things on this:

1. Manchester City is not a hugely followed team in Australia. It would be 5th or 6th in terms of fans in Australia and a long way behind the big 4 of Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal & Chelsea.
2. Tribalism is not entrenched, people think it is, but reality is it isn't. Entrenched tribalism is having fans attend when you have been relegated, hell AFL crowds drop off when the team is playing poorly, get relegated twice and still get 20,000+ each week like Leeds is entrenched. Those who are tribal are unlikely to attend other games, there is a reasonable portion of AFL attendances where the same ticket is used 3 times in a weekend, through boxes, medallion club, etc. You can't do this in any other sporting league in the world so it inflates the numbers.
3. A number of sports are capped by the size of the stadium. NBA and NHL are prime examples of this because the stadiums just aren't big enough, Ligue 1 in France is another example. These are competitions with no ground sharing to speak of and governments are funding expansion as happens here. An interesting stat is looking at attendance in comparison to capacity here the AFL fall back heavily
4. Interesting that they do not include motorsport in the figures of attendances for sporting codes because it would push AFL down. Even if it is just domestic NASCAR and Indycar would jump above AFL.
5. The MLS has seen steady growth and it has nothing to do with Beckham in recent years. Even before Beckham went to LA crowds were averaging over 15,000. Ground size is also a massive problem for MLS with most grounds sold out each week.

All that said, do I think AFL will die, no. Will association Football overtake it for popularity, not in the traditional states. Will it make inroads and reduce the AFL's growth, yes. AFL has a major problem that hinders growth, ground size. It is almost impossible to find grounds outside of Australia and even in parts of Australia grounds are limited. The AFL will find Sydney councils unreceptive to requests for help following how the AFL screwed Blacktown over.

 

[Pessimistic]

Coventry city in the league one. Just under 10k avreage last year. Just over 5k the year before.

Outside the premier league, attendances have nosedived in england too

 

[frozensage]

Soccer will never over take AFL here is Australia....................the matches in the US have attracted 100k to the games, do you think the NFL is worried?

What i find funny is the elements that are turning people off AFL and the common elements in soccer. Low scoring, congested, not much action, over defensive ext.

I liked watching footy when it was more like soccer. The running game. Now it's just becoming rugby with 90% of the players on 1% of the ground.

 

[nameless]

My son went to all three games. He paid $0 for the tickets, because they were gifted by a friend's Super fund. Some people paid big dollars to see a pre-season practice match, which was forgettable and there were thousands of freebies. It won't be long before the EPL start exporting some of their games to our country and that would be interesting. Say Man Utd-v-Liverpool or God forbid Arsenal, for a guaranteed fee which would far exceed what they could make in the UK. Will this increase the interest in the A league? Probably not. The A League need another 4-6 teams to make it interesting.

I can't see any decent clubs flying 24hrs to play a game in Australia.
Considering a lot of the big teams play 2-3 games in a week, traveling for 48hrs in a week wouldn't do them much good.

They'd travel to the US first, considering it's closer, more heavily populated and would have a bigger fanbase, both from a TV and attendance point of view.

Not like the big clubs are strapped for cash either.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

Few things on this:

1. Manchester City is not a hugely followed team in Australia. It would be 5th or 6th in terms of fans in Australia and a long way behind the big 4 of Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal & Chelsea.
2. Tribalism is not entrenched, people think it is, but reality is it isn't. Entrenched tribalism is having fans attend when you have been relegated, hell AFL crowds drop off when the team is playing poorly, get relegated twice and still get 20,000+ each week like Leeds is entrenched. Those who are tribal are unlikely to attend other games, there is a reasonable portion of AFL attendances where the same ticket is used 3 times in a weekend, through boxes, medallion club, etc. You can't do this in any other sporting league in the world so it inflates the numbers.
3. A number of sports are capped by the size of the stadium. NBA and NHL are prime examples of this because the stadiums just aren't big enough, Ligue 1 in France is another example. These are competitions with no ground sharing to speak of and governments are funding expansion as happens here. An interesting stat is looking at attendance in comparison to capacity here the AFL fall back heavily
4. Interesting that they do not include motorsport in the figures of attendances for sporting codes because it would push AFL down. Even if it is just domestic NASCAR and Indycar would jump above AFL.
5. The MLS has seen steady growth and it has nothing to do with Beckham in recent years. Even before Beckham went to LA crowds were averaging over 15,000. Ground size is also a massive problem for MLS with most grounds sold out each week.

All that said, do I think AFL will die, no. Will association Football overtake it for popularity, not in the traditional states. Will it make inroads and reduce the AFL's growth, yes. AFL has a major problem that hinders growth, ground size. It is almost impossible to find grounds outside of Australia and even in parts of Australia grounds are limited. The AFL will find Sydney councils unreceptive to requests for help following how the AFL screwed Blacktown over.

I hear what you're saying, but:
1. Man City have been pretty successful of late, so I'd still classify them as a pretty big club, and one of the biggest clubs of the EPL. Obviously people who have an interest in soccer would pay to see them play. If I lived in London and Brisbane v Freo came to play, I'd probably go watch.
2. We'll have to agree to disagree. Port v Adelaide? WC v Freo? Pies v Bombers? Blues v Bombers? Hawks v Bombers? Pies v Just about anyone? Read through any match day threads? I think it's pretty well entrenched. I work in a small software firm where we create and distribute barcoded tickets, sold online and offline. Even in our small firm, we are able to tell whether a ticket has been used at Gate 1, 2, 3 gone out through gate 4, back in through gate 6, etc, so whilst it might be the AFL uses all the "entries" to inflate the figures (though I have no evidence of this), it's not that hard to not do that. They'd certainly have the choice.
3. Fair point regarding NBA / NHL, but if NFL grounds can hold 80k+, so could soccer grounds. The field of play is about the same size. It's partly due to the success of the AFL that there are a number of 50k+ capacity grounds.
4. The stats are about professional sports leagues, so motor racing doesn't qualify. I don't see motor racing as a threat to the AFL.
5. Wouldn't know anything about the MLS. Grounds being sold out every week sounds like a good problem to have though!

I don't think the ground sizes are an issue in Sydney until GWS become more successful / popular. Even then, the AFL would want to be careful because a reduction in winning would see crowds drop faster than ... something that drops really fast.

 

[madmug]

I liked watching footy when it was more like soccer. The running game. Now it's just becoming rugby with 90% of the players on 1% of the ground.

You are kidding arent you?.

Soccer is generally played in little triangles with passes about, then sometimes someone will make a run. Some games, rarely, others, more often.

Soccer is similar to competitive dance, it must be because the commentators have little say except about a bit of skill hear & their. But when/if someone does actually score they go off like a fire cracker, even if its an inane bit of a kick that just dribbles in. the highlights are often the one & only goal of the match, or a near miss when someone actually kicks it at goal!

Sport is cultural to a point. Many places have grown up with soccer so its a cultural & tribal thing. I guess darts or arm wrestling could be like that too.

 

[Power Raid]

You shouldn't be basing your views of a sport on meaningless friendlies though, I mean I love soccer but I thought the games here were terminally boring.

But how people can't appreciate stuff like this is beyond me, it's like an art.

That is a reason why it is called the beautiful game.

To see a top performing side at full flight is something to behold. Unfortunately there are only 10-20 top sides across the globe and their head to heads are rare (relatively speaking). Head to heads worth remembering are even rarer.

The game is great because is is complex and requires great skill. anyone who has played the game can appreciate some of the subtleties in the game but conversely as it requires so much skill that a second tier tam can make the game look so ordinary.

 

[Milanista28]

The shower of paper planes that started 20 mins before the end of the RM v MC game speaks volumes about the game. Soccer is an inferior product in all aspects

Lol.

 

[00Stinger]

My son went to all three games. He paid $0 for the tickets, because they were gifted by a friend's Super fund. Some people paid big dollars to see a pre-season practice match, which was forgettable and there were thousands of freebies. It won't be long before the EPL start exporting some of their games to our country and that would be interesting. Say Man Utd-v-Liverpool or God forbid Arsenal, for a guaranteed fee which would far exceed what they could make in the UK. Will this increase the interest in the A league? Probably not. The A League need another 4-6 teams to make it interesting.

the premier league were exploring the options for a 39th round in which all games would be played overseas a few years back. From memory all of the clubs blocked the move

 

[NUFC Tiger]

wont even take that, all that needs to happen is the A-league attracts the necessary sugar daddies to bring in higher salary caps in order to retain some of australia's best players when they are in their prime.

Europe is the kingdom of soccer but the Asian leagues are currently booming if the A-league becomes a serious product by retaining its talent competes in regional champions leagues every year and tops it off with friendlies that undercurrent for soccer will continue to grow.

I don't see this realistically happening in the next 30 years though, still its a lot closer to occurring then affordable super fast jets any time soon.
Soccers problem is simply fifa. fifa couldn't give a shit about the domestic product, what they want is talented players they can take back to where the money is. This is seen in everything they do, the world cups leave nations in massive debt and unused stadia, the best players treat anything outside of Europe as joke and easy retirement money and visiting teams field 3rd rate squads that the fans masturbate over.

whether we like it or not soccer is a sleeping giant, the only good news is that the governing body seems intent on keeping it in an induced coma.

Just on that point, the FFA want 'sustainable growth' of the league - yes there are a few big clubs who could potentially out muscle any other in terms of buying power (the likes of Victory, Sydney, the Wanderers and probably Melbourne City if they are bankrolled by their parent club) if the salary cap was removed; but they want to try and keep the competition 'relatively' even across the board. IIRC, most clubs still haven't recouped the initial start up costs (with some investors saying they don't expect to ever get their investments back).

With a few clubs currently in precarious situations, it makes sense for the shackles (so to speak) to remain on.

Having survived 120 years Im sure it will survive another 120.

There will always be a premier aussie rules code. The only difference is the administrators and players wont all be making millions of dollars.

That is the real concern. Money.

This. The AFL or rather Aussie Rules (regardless of Football) will always exist and have a premier competition. Rival codes have existed for decades in the past, no reason that will stop in the decades to come. Contrary to what some think, it is possible to enjoy multiple sports and for those codes to coexist.

My son went to all three games. He paid $0 for the tickets, because they were gifted by a friend's Super fund. Some people paid big dollars to see a pre-season practice match, which was forgettable and there were thousands of freebies. It won't be long before the EPL start exporting some of their games to our country and that would be interesting. Say Man Utd-v-Liverpool or God forbid Arsenal, for a guaranteed fee which would far exceed what they could make in the UK. Will this increase the interest in the A league? Probably not. The A League need another 4-6 teams to make it interesting.

Just on that Moody Blue, while I'd be keen to see something like that happen, I can't see the EPL playing competitive fixtures outside of England (or Wales if we're talking about Swansea). The size of the global TV audience wouldn't make it practical to shift the fixtures out of country. Plus as many fans in the UK are season ticket holders, those fans would need to be reimbursed for their missed game. There is probably some FIFA/UEFA rule preventing something like that unless special conditions exist.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any competitive domestic match from a European top flight played abroad - perhaps some of the clubs from places or regions deemed unstable or safe? (maybe Ukraine last year?)

IF it happened one day, I doubt we'd be lucky to get the games here (maybe a few of the smaller sides at a stretch). The US or one of the wealthy Asian nations would probably offer more money than we could potentially match.

P.S your son was very lucky. I'm jealous!