MRP / Trib. AFL Round 20 charges - Steve Johnson cleared of misconduct for kneeing Scott Thompson

[Teriyakicat]

With all respect, that is so NOT the point.
No player should ever be in a position lying on the ground to have to protect himself from a knee to the chest/abdomen.
Interestingly, they never look at bumps like the one by Duncan on Swallow in play that really did cause some rib bruising or whatever, looking at the scenes when he came off. That sort of bump can cause visceral (organ) damage and cracked ribs, but as it is NOT the head, it's all ok.?

Thompson was pulling SJ back down into himself- while lying on his back. I have no idea who started it or how the players ended up on the ground but Thompson wanted it to continue, as evidenced by his actions.

 

[catempire]

Of course. They use both. I would argue that it would be impossible to at least build a shortlist of incidents that require follow-up, unless the MRP uses player reactions as a guide.I don't think Johnson would have been given a suspension, if Thompson hadn't had the reaction he did (whether it was justified or exaggerated).

Of course they should use both but for different purposes - as you say, it would be impossible to undertake the physical task of reviewing the footage without using cues such as player responses to clashes. However in terms of the actual grading done by the MRP, the use of player reactions would be a serious flaw with the process and I seriously hope it plays absolutely no role in the grading.

And form our perspective, the point is: we don't have access at all to the medical report and don't even have a rough idea of its contents until the statement is already released, therefore, if we want to speculate on MRP penalties/non-penalties, we have to adopt a similar sort of rule of thumb, to the one that I have proposed (whether people generally agree with those gradings or not). Otherwise, you can only really put a big question mark in that box, until the findings have already been made.

Agree with this, which is why I advocate more transparency around how the medical report has been used in the listing of the MRP charges. It would not be too hard to say "Based on video footage of the incident and a medical report from North Melbourne which showed Thompson had to leave the ground for treatment by medical staff following the incident" (or whatever actually occurred in place of the bolded). At the moment I feel the medical report is used to justify whatever conclusion the MRP has come to rather than the other way around and the MRP is able to do this because of the opacity of the situation. Most cases never make it to the tribunal so the MRP's assertions are never tested. That's one of the good things about this case is we are pulling back the curtain on the MRP's reasoning.

 

[Teriyakicat]

If it' some likes that you're after mate, I can tell you that that isn't the best way to go about it.

But your post is

 

[catempire]

I liked it first time.

I have no idea what you're on about.

 

[betchsta]

pull his head in, concentrate for a whole match, and play the ball only. His good mate Ablett cops more attention and is exemplary. Why is it always SJ who is the one involved in these fiascos?
The worst thing is, he never hurts anyone except himself and our team; everything he does to get cited is trivial, painless, non-injurious, and so frustrating, particularly this week. But I admit, as soon as it was highlighted, you just knew he'd be up.

I agree he should pull his head him Vdubs, But no harm was caused over the incident.......The game is becoming ridiculous as to whats reportable.

 

[Teriyakicat]

pull his head in, concentrate for a whole match, and play the ball only. His good mate Ablett cops more attention and is exemplary. Why is it always SJ who is the one involved in these fiascos?
The worst thing is, he never hurts anyone except himself and our team; everything he does to get cited is trivial, painless, non-injurious, and so frustrating, particularly this week. But I admit, as soon as it was highlighted, you just knew he'd be up.

Vdubs, if SJ's actions are all these things, then why the hell does he continue all get cited by the MRP? Insufficient force!? You can bet your butt it is!

 

[Vdubs]

Thompson was pulling SJ back down into himself- while lying on his back. I have no idea who started it or how the players ended up on the ground but Thompson wanted it to continue, as evidenced by his actions.

Fair point, that will have to be our argument in this appeal; there could not be any other factor- the contact being insufficient is irrelevant as far as a knee to anywhere is concerned?
I should add if that knee is intentional.

 

[Vdubs]

Vdubs, if SJ's actions are all these things, then why the hell does he continue all get cited by the MRP? Insufficient force!? You can bet your butt it is!

He does all these things carefully enough to not cause injury, but overtly and stupidly enough to be caught. And they are all "outside the spirit of the game."

 

[Teriyakicat]

Geelong are challenging at the tribunal, it shouldn't last more than 2 minutes. Johnson will be playing on Saturday, if not then the whole MRP system has collapsed into a bottomless pit of incompetence. This is a real chance for the AFL to make a joke of the MRP, not the other way round.

Ummm... The AFL and the MRP are bed-partners. The MRP wouldn't exist without the AFL but the AFL aren't about to shoot themselves in the foot by exposing the inadequecies of the MRP- more's the pity They have no alternative at this point other than to back the MRP to the hilt. (As opposed to knifing them in the back, to the hilt)

 

[bulletproof]

Can someone remind me, wasn't there a case this year, where MRP sent Ballantyne direct to triburnal because the penalty they came up with was too harsh for a minor offence? What were the circumstances of that case?

 

[Go Hoops]

Didn't the grand pooh-bahs appoint Joel Bowden full time to go through the infringements in order to improve the system? That's gone well. The Tribunal should not only dismiss it but apologise to SJ and the club for the embarrassment.

 

[Vdubs]

I have no idea what you're on about.

Too smart for me, one deletion missing.

 

[you pick one]

Making force decisions on video is rubbish,just this week on the MRP vid Smuck was saying of one love tap if the player had gone down the offender would be having a week off,so now the players have to decide if their target is a diver or just a soft ****.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Fair point, that will have to be our argument in this appeal; there could not be any other factor- the contact being insufficient is irrelevant as far as a knee to anywhere is concerned?
I should add if that knee is intentional.

But if Stevie had punched him in the chest with the same force, would the MRP look at the incident with the same disfavour? I am pretty sure that the club can't argue that the knee wasn't deliberate but the force of it is no different to the force of the jumper punches which, evidenced by their lack of citing by the MRP, are legal.
The MRP don't cite any of the numerous gut punches within a game and, if an umpire reports a player, the charge would get thrown out.
Just as an example of the MRP's inconsistency, have a look at this article from last year's final against Freo.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dockers-to-sweat-on-reports-against-pair-20130908-2tdm0.html
There's a picture of Spud Dawson having a swing at Podsiadly. Apparently he missed, so got off on the charge. Strangely, SJ has actually been suspended for an "attempted strike"....
(Mayne actually did get 125 points for gut punching SJ in that game... Maybe a few more reports could stamp this crap out- but it is a ChookLotto on this, I feel)

 

[Teriyakicat]

Can someone remind me, wasn't there a case this year, where MRP sent Ballantyne direct to triburnal because the penalty they came up with was too harsh for a minor offence? What were the circumstances of that case?

True
http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2014-06-09/ballantyne-referred-to-tribunal

I can see where you're going with this

 

[darren forssman]

Ummm... The AFL and the MRP are bed-partners. The MRP wouldn't exist without the AFL but the AFL aren't about to shoot themselves in the foot by exposing the inadequecies of the MRP- more's the pity They have no alternative at this point other than to back the MRP to the hilt. (As opposed to knifing them in the back, to the hilt)

oh my:

 

[Art Vandelay_]

But if Stevie had punched him in the chest with the same force, would the MRP look at the incident with the same disfavour? I am pretty sure that the club can't argue that the knee wasn't deliberate but the force of it is no different to the force of the jumper punches which, evidenced by their lack of citing by the MRP, are legal.
The MRP don't cite any of the numerous gut punches within a game and, if an umpire reports a player, the charge would get thrown out.
Just as an example of the MRP's inconsistency, have a look at this article from last year's final against Freo.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dockers-to-sweat-on-reports-against-pair-20130908-2tdm0.html
There's a picture of Spud Dawson having a swing at Podsiadly. Apparently he missed, so got off on the charge. Strangely, SJ has actually been suspended for an "attempted strike"....
(Mayne actually did get 125 points for gut punching SJ in that game... Maybe a few more reports could stamp this crap out- but it is a ChookLotto on this, I feel)

Don't you mean Wheel of Fortune!!

 

[Teriyakicat]

He does all these things carefully enough to not cause injury, but overtly and stupidly enough to be caught. And they are all "outside the spirit of the game."

Outside the spirit of the game- sure. In retaliation to another incident which was outside the spirit of the game.
"Carefully enough to not cause injury" suggests that there isn't potential to cause damage, which is one of the MRPs hobby horses.
Just on the damage to soft organs, which you referred to in an earlier post- what do you think about the repeated gut punches that Johnson receives on a regular basis? Is there any chance of future damage to his stomach, pancreas, intestines, etc.? I'm talking about an accumulation of many years of what I would call low to medium impact damage. (No defender gut punches as light as a fairy tap. They gut punch to cause disadvantage to their opponent so the impact must be on the moderate side, one would think)

 

[Biggy_Boy]

He won't get off. Scott is delusional if he thinks the tribunal will take the importance of our next two games into consideration. Looks like we'll be losing Stevie for two weeks. Great.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

He won't get off. Scott is delusional if he thinks the tribunal will take the importance of our next two games into consideration. Looks like we'll be losing Stevie for two weeks. Great.

You really don't seem to like Scott all that much.

Besides I doubt Scott would be the lone decision maker in this challenge, I'm sure our legal representative would have had some input, so would Johnson and probably Balme as well!

 

[bulletproof]

True
http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2014-06-09/ballantyne-referred-to-tribunal

I can see where you're going with this

This is probably my favourite decision of the year by the MRP. We just decided that the points system was flawed In this case and flicked it over.

It was a beauty this one!

 

[Teriyakicat]

This is probably my favourite decision of the year by the MRP. We just decided that the points system was flawed In this case and flicked it over.

It was a beauty this one!

So can the Cats do the same thing? Ballantyne was sent to Tribunal because of the points loading - which is the whole point of having the loading- ie to give a penalty to repeat offenders- but the MRP squibbed. Here we have SJ on a gazillion points after a light jab but the MRP don't even think to send it to the Tribunal. Was it because it was deliberate?

 

[goyoucatters]

"Insufficient force" is such an arbitrary term, but if the force used by Johnson is deemed to be reportable, then I think it's almost time I gave this game away.

'Insufficient force' is always going to be incredibly arbitrary. Which is why I believe the MRP will hide behind whatever medical report they got from the Kangas. And I don't accept they would have been dumb enough to go this far without getting that report.

The question that needs to be asked (objectively) is this:

Would any other player involved in the same incident in the same way (with the same medical report) have avoided censure from the MRP?

Exactly the same censure that SJ received, that is. Where a one-game 'offence' could have been bargained down to a reprimand with a good/clean record.

I, for one, don't think so. The MRP would have lodged their findings, the player would have taken the early plea and everyone would have moved on to next week.

SJ's horrendous record is the sole cause of the 'story' that's erupted around this incident.

And I don't think we can seriously suggest he had no other reasonable alternative than contacting Thompson with his knees.

Which leaves me thinking the prospect of a successful appeal is quite remote.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I reckon he'll be found guilty. I think one of his 'knees' actually gets Thompson with some decent force, and considering the rib cage is pretty fragile it is a dangerous action (disregarding the outcome). Ribs can break pretty easily, you can't really have people going around doing what he did.

I agree it's very dangerous if he kneed him, but I don't think he did.

If you look at the video (and remove all preconceptions about his record, just look at the vision), SJ already has his knee bent for balance while they are wrestling. While on the ground Thompson clearly pulls SJ down towards the ground, at this point he can't control the fact that he is falling to the ground (and would have hit it if he didn't make contact with Thompson first). The whole time his knee stays in the same angle, he does not further bend the knee, or alter the angle, and he does not drive the knee in, both of which you do if you are kneeing someone deliberately (as Murphy did a few weeks ago). This indicates there was no intent to knee at all, and Thompson entirely causes the contact. Because he is being held by the jumper, it's not as if he can control falling on top of Thompson, and the knee contact is incidental, and entirely Thompson's fault. I can't see how on the vision you can possibly convict anyone for that. The worst he can be done for is actually wrestling in the first place, which is not a suspension.

Having said that I think the MRP will just look at SJ's record and not the incident itself, and will suspend him with bias, but the club made the right decision. I am aware he is undiscplined and is an utter idiot at times, and I was furious at him for missing the 2012 final, but you have to judge each case on it's merits, and in this case he has done nothing wrong and should be defended.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

You really don't seem to like Scott all that much.

Besides I doubt Scott would be the lone decision maker in this challenge, I'm sure our legal representative would have had some input, so would Johnson and probably Balme as well!

I'm sure he wasn't the lone decision maker, but he did make a comment that the tribunal should consider our next two games. That's completely irrelevant to them, and if that's the mindset they're going into the case with, it's guaranteed that they will fail and Johnson will cop two weeks.