Preview AFL Round 23 - Collingwood vs Essendon - Changes and Prematch Discussion

[Frankie23]

Firstly Jolly is playing, hence he is fit. We haven't played any unfit players this year so he is clearly right to go, those worried about him going down are being too precious.

Also, say Jolly does go down in a final (touch-wood), realistically what is Dawes going to do...? We're shot either way.

Jolly has proven he is a durable player over his career, he seems like the bloke to thrive on the opportunity. Paine/Cloke up forward, if Paine struggles (which he won't, if Krakouer has been knocking on the door, Paine has been absolutely smashing it down) then there is always the sub him out,Tarrant up forward option. I like this set-up better, more flexibility about it.

 

[rose jam]

Problem is Paine blows up after about a quarter and a half, he doesn't have AFL level fitness, so I only see this as a 1 week move. If we played Hawks week 1 he'd be a liability

 

[HFF]

Keep Paine at FF and Cloke at CHF like our 2010/2011 set up.

Paine is pretty strong in the air so the closer he stays to goal, the less chance of blowing up.

Cloke has the tank to get up and down the ground. That his strength, marking aside.

 

[neilk]

I'm not sure about Paine being 2nd tall in the forward line as he is only listed at 191cm, so no taller than Pendles. I expect Cloke to do some rucking up forward and most likely Brown down back, with Maxie 3rd up. But of course I could be totally wrong. Dawes has been basically crucified this year by having to play as the 2nd ruck. No-one realised just how much of a loss Leigh Brown was when he retired.

 

[Go_Brad_Dick]

Dawes is a crap 2nd ruck don't know why everyone's worried about it.
Didn't clocked used to ruck at the trot of his career? Might help him get some touch back

 

[MeisterBot]

I'm not sure about Paine being 2nd tall in the forward line as he is only listed at 191cm, so no taller than Pendles. I expect Cloke to do some rucking up forward and most likely Brown down back, with Maxie 3rd up. But of course I could be totally wrong. Dawes has been basically crucified this year by having to play as the 2nd ruck. No-one realised just how much of a loss Leigh Brown was when he retired.

With his knees, would be awful player management if Brown was forced to ruck.

I can imagine Cloke rucking in the forward line and Goldsack potentially with Maxwell/Thomas going 3rd up around the ground.

Paine is fine as a 2nd tall offensively. He's our Jack Darling. Ideally, he'd be a 3rd tall but has no issues being one of the main men. Problem is he hasn't got much of a tank (yet). Needs another preseason or two. So I don't think he'll offer much in terms of chasing/tackling/defensive pressure.

 

[Number 10]

I'm not sure about Paine being 2nd tall in the forward line as he is only listed at 191cm, so no taller than Pendles. I expect Cloke to do some rucking up forward and most likely Brown down back, with Maxie 3rd up. But of course I could be totally wrong. Dawes has been basically crucified this year by having to play as the 2nd ruck. No-one realised just how much of a loss Leigh Brown was when he retired.

And darling is no taller than Paine.

 

[drummoyne]

Out: Dawes, Wood, Sinclair, Seedsman (if Maxy is fit only)

In: Paine, Jolly, Krak, Maxy (if fit)

I like Seedsman but probably still a preseason away from being best 22.

Gameplan going forward should be:

1) kick to Cloke deep in forward line

2) press up to forward fifty

3) Cloke marks or spills crumbs to small, agile forwards

4) Repeat

Simple I know but I think we need to go back to the basics.

4/5 aint bad..

Hopefully Blair injury isn't serious.

I think Seedsman will be a late inclusion for Wellers I am not convinced his finger/hand is right just yet.

 

[the mighty T]

The no second ruckman concerns me.. Might we see trav go into the ruck? Maybe Reid will head forward to pinch hit ala Harry Taylor.

I don't think the team is any quicker, which is a worry but I think it's arguable the most skillful side we could play. And with the way we've kicked in the last month, its certainly needed

 

[Aliago]

Why now? I was never against Dawes getting dropped, as long as we had some relief in the ruck. I might understand him getting dropped this week if we picked a Ceglar/Witts, but we picked just another KPF. Again, I am not against it, just the timing of it. Why wait until the last possible minute to pick Paine? What possible benefit does dropping Dawes do now? Since we have not bought in an obvious replacement for a relief ruckman, it appears we always had another option. If we always had that option, it is actually a little surprising to ax Dawes now and not a while ago. Dawes was never going to do a complete 180 and turn his horrible form around which has plagued him all year, so I am not sure why we retained him for this long, then decide to drop him one week before finals. It really either needed to be Dawes for the last 2-4 weeks then into finals, or Paine for the last 2-4 weeks then into finals.

I hope I am wrong.

 

[TradeDraft]

Intresting Essendon is Debuting Jackson Merritt who it related to T Merrit

 

[blaze036]

Why now? I was never against Dawes getting dropped, as long as we had some relief in the ruck. I might understand him getting dropped this week if we picked a Ceglar/Witts, but we picked just another KPF. Again, I am not against it, just the timing of it. Why wait until the last possible minute to pick Paine? What possible benefit does dropping Dawes do now? Since we have not bought in an obvious replacement for a relief ruckman, it appears we always had another option. If we always had that option, it is actually a little surprising to ax Dawes now and not a while ago. Dawes was never going to do a complete 180 and turn his horrible form around which has plagued him all year, so I am not sure why we retained him for this long, then decide to drop him one week before finals. It really either needed to be Dawes for the last 2-4 weeks then into finals, or Paine for the last 2-4 weeks then into finals.

I hope I am wrong.

ah hindsight... at round 12 this year the coaching staff could of expected dawes to turn his form around in the last 12 rounds and thus have stuck with him and not tried a replacement. Unthinkably... dawes has still not played decently

 

[Aliago]

I never said round 12. I said last 2-4 weeks ago.

 

[iGNITER]

I like the changes. Wrapt to see the Krak back

Possible line up -

B - Toovey Brown Tarrant
HB - O'Brien Reid Maxwell
C - Shaw Swan Wellingham
HF - Thomas Cloke Sidebottom
F - Krakouer Paine Didak
R - Jolly Beams Pendlebury
INT - Goldsack Johnson Fasolo
SUB - Elliott

 

[rose jam]

We need a defensive midfielder around the stoppages because we're too offensive there atm

 

[DaVe86]

The decision to drop Dawes has come far too late. In all honesty he needed a freshener mid-way through the year when he was struggling...or last week against West Coast following the horrible game against North Melbourne.

At least that way he would've had the chance to find form at VFL level and get a bit of confidence back.

I don't think he is done for the season. If we think we can go into the finals with only 1 ruckman and no backup then we are going to get a rude awakening. Even this weekend, the inclusion of David Hille will really test Jolly who is sore and has to face Hille and Bellchambers. Perhaps Wood will be a late call up.

Surely Dawes will return...the problem is that he is not going to find form all of a sudden out of no where. He needed to find form at a lower level. You can't get form at training. It comes with succeeding on game day.



Expect Tarrant to play forward this week...especially with Gumbleton out. The forward line is dangerous with Tarrant, Cloke and Paine...along with Krakouer, Didak and Elliot. However, there is a glaring hole in the side which is a backup ruck.

Perhaps it is a chance to mix up the side and use Cloke in the ruck. That gets him into the game.

I think at the end of the season, Buckley will look back and say he put too much faith in the Dawes/Cloke combination. At the mid-way point of the year...even though we were winning...Buckley needed to make the move there.

It is a rookie mistake. Malthouse was making them well into his career as well. It was only when he bit the bullet on O'Bree, Lockyer, Fraser, Licuria etc did we succeed. You can't play favourites and you can't persist too long with a failed structure. I'm sure if Dawes was dropped mid-season he would be back by now in better form after tearing up the VFL.

I still think he will come back during finals though. We can't bank of Paine to be the answer just yet. I also think our best team will see Blair come in for Elliot.

 

[DaVe86]

We need a defensive midfielder around the stoppages because we're too offensive there atm

100% spot on.


As I've alluded to a lot this week...time to get Sidebottom up forward and Wellingham back into the midfield to tag and also provide some attacking flare.

 

[loki04]

We need a defensive midfielder around the stoppages because we're too offensive there atm

yeah I'd like to see Toovey become our tagger, he rarely loses 1v1 and has the mental dedication as well as pace to stop them.

 

[DaVe86]

yeah I'd like to see Toovey become our tagger, he rarely loses 1v1 and has the mental dedication as well as pace to stop them.

could be an option with Johnson back in the team to play the back pocket role.

 

[jmac70]

The decision to drop Dawes has come far too late. In all honesty he needed a freshener mid-way through the year when he was struggling...or last week against West Coast following the horrible game against North Melbourne.

At least that way he would've had the chance to find form at VFL level and get a bit of confidence back.

I don't think he is done for the season. If we think we can go into the finals with only 1 ruckman and no backup then we are going to get a rude awakening. Even this weekend, the inclusion of David Hille will really test Jolly who is sore and has to face Hille and Bellchambers. Perhaps Wood will be a late call up.

Surely Dawes will return...the problem is that he is not going to find form all of a sudden out of no where. He needed to find form at a lower level. You can't get form at training. It comes with succeeding on game day.



Expect Tarrant to play forward this week...especially with Gumbleton out. The forward line is dangerous with Tarrant, Cloke and Paine...along with Krakouer, Didak and Elliot. However, there is a glaring hole in the side which is a backup ruck.

Perhaps it is a chance to mix up the side and use Cloke in the ruck. That gets him into the game.

I think at the end of the season, Buckley will look back and say he put too much faith in the Dawes/Cloke combination. At the mid-way point of the year...even though we were winning...Buckley needed to make the move there.

It is a rookie mistake. Malthouse was making them well into his career as well. It was only when he bit the bullet on O'Bree, Lockyer, Fraser, Licuria etc did we succeed. You can't play favourites and you can't persist too long with a failed structure. I'm sure if Dawes was dropped mid-season he would be back by now in better form after tearing up the VFL.

I still think he will come back during finals though. We can't bank of Paine to be the answer just yet. I also think our best team will see Blair come in for Elliot.

I think Bucks had every right to place his faith in the Cloke/Dawes combination given the level of development of the key position players in the VFL. We should not forget that Dawes had a good game against Sydney, proving that he is capable. I see his omission as nothing more than a result of his inept performance last week which was probably his worse for the season. He is not going to lose fitness and should be fresh for the Hawks game.

 

[ksardog]

no second ruck [wheres ceglar] and no shut down midfielder [clarke?]
happy for paine, deserves his chance but im not sure we can go into a finals series without a back up ruck

 

[DaVe86]

I think Bucks had every right to place his faith in the Cloke/Dawes combination given the level of development of the key position players in the VFL. We should not forget that Dawes had a good game against Sydney, proving that he is capable. I see his omission as nothing more than a result of his inept performance last week which was probably his worse for the season. He is not going to lose fitness and should be fresh for the Hawks game.

Let's hope you are right. Everyone is saying Dawes is done for the season but I think that's a long way off the mark. I still think he is a required player in our 22. Perhaps a week off is what he is needed.

What I am saying is that the drums have been beating all year about Dawes, and he needed either a freshener mid year or needed to find form at VFL. We also needed to find a plan B for the second ruck or a backup tall forward. It was a chance to maybe throw Ceglar or Paine in for a few weeks to give them a test.

It's far too late to be experimenting now. Let's just hope it doesn't hurt us and Dawes can come back into the side refreshed.

 

[jmac70]

Let's hope you are right. Everyone is saying Dawes is done for the season but I think that's a long way off the mark. I still think he is a required player in our 22. Perhaps a week off is what he is needed.

What I am saying is that the drums have been beating all year about Dawes, and he needed either a freshener mid year or needed to find form at VFL. We also needed to find a plan B for the second ruck or a backup tall forward. It was a chance to maybe throw Ceglar or Paine in for a few weeks to give them a test.

It's far too late to be experimenting now. Let's just hope it doesn't hurt us and Dawes can come back into the side refreshed.

I agree. You would have thought Witts or Ceglar would have been tried against GWS. Bucks and the match committee must not believe they are ready whereas Pain has at least played a few games this year. I can see Dawes coming back in next week. If we play the Hawks we will need big bodies. That will be a brutal game.

 

[mattys123]

I have kind of laughed at every one saying "where's our back up ruck?" as we know we haven't had one all year anyway.

I can see the ruck contests going like this;

Defensive zone - Reid
Central zone - Cloke
Forward Zone - Cloke

That is of course when Jolly isn't around, as I suspect he'll ruck for 75-80% of the game, if not more.

Cloke is the answer as the backup ruck, why not, he couldn't do worse than Dawes.

 

[cfx_1]

Travis Cloke will be back up ruck one would assume.. And lets be honest... He can out wrestle any opponent, is good at ground level without being amazing.. Needs confidence and could do with some time on the ball. Plus he has a massive tank. Could be a master stroke from Buckley