AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)
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Falcon3518
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I’m seeing a lot of people put betts in the team. Am I the only one that thinks C Rioli was better? What’s the arguments for betts over Rioli?
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- May 5, 2016
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Being the all time record holder for goal assists across the entire league since the stat was kept, and kicking more goals than any small forward excluding Leigh Matthews in history helps. Milne is the only other goal kicking small forward in the conversation and he was less damaging using the ball than Betts.
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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Yes body of work wise cause he played longer. But prime? During the hawks dynasty Rioli was regarded as the best small forward in the comp. I don’t really remember betts having that same impact, maybe cause he played at less successful clubs I didn’t notice. But Rioli was definitely a better big game player which is why I’d personally have him in the team.
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Well for starters, in two of the three years Rioli made an all Australian squad, Betts was picked in the pocket of the same team (Rioli was at half forward). Pocket is almost ceremonially reserved for the best small forward. Betts was also in the squad in the third season Rioli was AA, and then made a third team himself in 2017. Rioli was at HF in all three sides he made (Milne was in the pocket in 2013)
I am not picking a player because ‘he lifted in big games’ when his main rival lifted his own goals per game average from 1.8 to 2.4 in finals. Moreso when the other player’s goal output dropped from 1.4 to 1.1 in finals.
2
0
1
0
2.
That was Rioli’s goal output in grand finals. A goal a game: same as Eddie.
Having one brilliant grand final, one game, doesn’t cancel out everything else.
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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Fair enough. Which years was Betts the best small forward in the comp and which were Rioli?
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Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
People picking Eddie would be picking him as a goal kicking small forward, Cyril an amazing player with his defensive pressure and skills up the field but just wasn’t a big goal kicker compared to other small forwards and especially Eddie.
Cyril only managed 3 seasons of kicking 30 goals.
2012: 39
2015: 42
2016: 47
While Eddie kicked 30 goals 9 time with bigger totals.
2011: 50
2012: 48
2014: 51
2015: 63
2016: 75
2017: 55
As for big game players, Rioli played in a much more successful team, playing more finals in a much shorter career. Kicked 22 goals from 19 finals while Betts 31 goals from 13 finals. Cyril got the Norm Smith in 2015 but was the only time he polled in the voting from 5 games, that’s not to say he didn’t play well in the other Grand Finals though.
Rioli certainly impacted the game with very little touches as good as anyone I’ve seen, I remember a game he was awarded best on and he only had 6 disposals, stats just don’t do him justice. But people picking Betts is because he is the best goal kicking small forward this century
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Just give me Dusty and Stevie J in the pockets and they’ll deliver. No to Cyril, Eddie and Milne
curnow inferno
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CHANGES AT END OF SEASON 2023:
IN: BONTEMPELLI
OUT: SWAN
I can't see any more changes coming up for a long time after this.
Thoughts?
IN: BONTEMPELLI
OUT: SWAN
| FB: | C.ENRIGHT (GEEL) | M.SCARLETT (GEEL) | T.STEWART* (GEEL) |
| HB: | A.MCLEOD (ADEL) | A.RANCE (RICH) | L.HODGE (HAW) (vc) |
| C: | N.BUCKLEY (COLL) | M.VOSS (BRIS) (c) | B.COUSINS (WC/RICH) |
| HF: | P.DANGERFIELD* (ADEL/GEEL) | N.RIEWOLDT (STK) | D.MARTIN* (RICH) |
| FF: | L.FRANKLIN (HAW/SYD) | M.LLOYD (ESS) | J.AKERMANIS (BRIS/WB) |
| RR: | M.GAWN* (MELB) | C.JUDD (WC/CARL) | G.ABLETT (GEEL/GC) |
| INT: | A.GOODES (SYD) | N.FYFE* (FREM) | S.PENDLEBURY* (COLL) - M.BONTEMPELLI* (WB) |
| COACH: | ALASTAIR CLARKSON (HAW/NM) |
I can't see any more changes coming up for a long time after this.
Thoughts?
You haven't got a key defender to take the monster forwards. Scarlett is a glorified receiver at 4 contested possessions per game, he makes way for mine. Get someone who can actually handle the job in there like Brian Lake, rather than another one of the Cats kick-it-backwards-to-me defenders.
Dangerfield is not a forward's bootlace, that position is Eddie Betts or Cyril Rioli. Enright is still trying to locate Cyril from the 2008 GF when the latter was a 1st year player so no idea what that statue is doing in your side. I haven't got clarity on some of the others at this stage. What can Tom Stewart do that Jim Sicily can't do?
There are 4 dynasty clubs this century. You have 5 Geelong players, 3 Brisbane players, and only 2 Hawks and Tigers. You have been listening to too much media drooling over home and away seagull performances v weak opposition and not actually taking notice of who made teams win things.
Apart from that you didn't do a bad job.
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curnow inferno
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Could possibly replace another collingwood legend on the wing given a lot of his best was in the 90s…
But personally id want at least 10 elite seasons to get to that stage.
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My only thought is I would have Pavlich ahead of Reiwoldt. Finished his career with only 18 goals less from 15 more games, despite spending time in the midfield and down back. Question then becomes if you put Reiwoldt on the bench. Also feel like two-time Brownlow medallist Fyfe gets on the HFF ahead of one-time winners Martin and Dangerfield.
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pavlich's legacy is impossible to analyse using conventional metrics. because he didn't have a position, even as a forward he was used as a general forward rather than
pavlich spent 6 seasons of his career in other positions its true. however, as a centre half forward i feel like reiwoldt is a better player at that position. unless pavlich has a dominant full-forward which allows him to be a crumbing player (very good below his feet) and his crisp kick would be awesome as a distributor. except for the fact freo never had a pair for him.
due to lack of forward options we rarely played him as a full forward during his prime. however, he did play there for half a season in 2012 (injured his achilles and never quite was the same player after). kicked 45 goals in the back half of that yeah, 8 against the eagles just quietly. is he better than loyyd, i wouldn't be bold enough to make that claim after only half a season in the role properly and not just in spurts.
as a defender the reason he won the all australian as a 22 year old was his distribution by foot. had a thumping kick. he got it because his score involvements and goals kicked for a full back were kinda insane. but the system allowed this. we had a bunch of players who could play tall or small (grover, parker, haddrill and mcpharlin). so pavlich was this weird fullback, running back. sitting off the back off the midfield as a fullback was also an option. but personally the defenders chosen were better at that role.
as a midfielder he would give you 21 to 24 possesions a game and 1 to 1.5 goals a game depending on his mid forward splits. but you'd probs prefer dusty.
as a forward flanker he set up a lot of goals with his kicking, and ground level stuff being better than the average small defender could handle helped as well. plus because he was our best forward him behaving like this could draw a key defender further up the field than they would like. destablizing the opposition defence. drawing the intercept marker away from there preferred position. but personally i would prefer franklin in this role.
in finals pavlich's performances in the 2005, 2010 and 2012 before his injury were insane. 3.15 goals a game, 20 plus possessions average. 2013 to 2015 post injury they were meh.
i will say this with pavlich he kicked 600 goals across 11 seasons as a forward. averaging about 2.6 goals a game across that time. if he had a similar average across his other 6 seasons but instead played as a forward he would have 900 goals across his career. if he played as a full forward he may will have cracked the 1000 goal mark.
i would draft pavlich, but reiwoldt's position as a centre half forward isn't controversial, i thinks its the correct choice.
RichLeMonde
Club Legend
Good post. Confirms what my eyes told me. Pav was an absolute monster in finals and an unbelievable all round player
I know people won't agree but from a structural point of view Barry Hall would be better than Nick Riewoldt as Nick and Buddy play a similar sort of role, whereas Hall could play more of a stay at home forward if required.
Of course in this team the only Swans to even be in consideration would be Buddy, Goodes, Hall and Kennedy, though it would not surprise me if one day Gulden is knocking at the door.
I think you nailed it. That last bench spot you got Pendles in could probably be occupied by a few players. Pavlich, R.Harvey, Selwood, Swan. But it's line ball so I don't think Pendles in a bad pick. Fyfe is the other one that's probably droppable.
Could also select a specialist forward pocket like Betts and move Danger to the Bench but Im happy with the approach youve taken.
A few people have mentioned that some of these guys were at their best pre 2000. The last team of the century up to 1996 so the next one will likely be named from 1997 onwards. I'm not sure how you did it but I dont think it changes the names anyway.
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Also this might just be an issue with definitions but I am not sure I would have Buckley and Voss in the team as yes they were great players and worthy of being in the team but I am not sure either should be in the "21st century" team as both played majority of their careers in the 20th century.
and as good as Stewart is, I don't quite feel like he should be in this team. I feel there are better players.
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Great analysis. That said, while Reiwoldt might be a more traditional centre half forward, I think I would still pick Pavlich. With the quality of the players in this team, you can afford to have a less-than-traditional centre half forward and the versatility he offers you is second to none. And as your analysis shows, he probably goes at more goals than Reiwoldt if he wasn't shuffled around to fill other gaps. Of course, it's splitting hairs between two great players.
Your Scarlett opinions are even more laughable than the average MR opinion.You haven't got a key defender to take the monster forwards. Scarlett is a glorified receiver at 4 contested possessions per game, he makes way for mine. Get someone who can actually handle the job in there like Brian Lake, rather than another one of the Cats kick-it-backwards-to-me defenders.
Dangerfield is not a forward's bootlace, that position is Eddie Betts or Cyril Rioli. Enright is still trying to locate Cyril from the 2008 GF when the latter was a 1st year player so no idea what that statue is doing in your side. I haven't got clarity on some of the others at this stage. What can Tom Stewart do that Jim Sicily can't do?
There are 4 dynasty clubs this century. You have 5 Geelong players, 3 Brisbane players, and only 2 Hawks and Tigers. You have been listening to too much media drooling over home and away seagull performances v weak opposition and not actually taking notice of who made teams win things.
Apart from that you didn't do a bad job.
And the whole post is a giant sook about Geelong's champions, which seems to be a common theme for you.
RichLeMonde
Club Legend
Who do you rate higher? Enright or Stewart? I actually probably rate Stewart higher at this point.
Which leads me to ask: is there an argument for Chris Johnson ahead of Enright in a back pocket?
This isn't me being defensive at all, but who would you consider for that back pocket spot? A third tall, a genuine rebounder or more of a lockdown small? And which ones?
If Wanganeen's career started in the mid/late 90s he'd be the best shout. Likewise for Archer. They feel more like 20th century players. But I guess we have Buckley who started '93 and Voss '92. Chris Johnson comes in around here too.
For genuine 21st century centric players: McGovern? Gibson?
