As you got some flak for this - I agree with this entirely.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)
- Thread starter curnow inferno
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As you got some flak for this - I agree with this entirely.
Yeah but you suggested pendlebury should be. Stewart was a starting defender. Take him out and you are putting someone else in defense.
Selwood averages more brownlow votes per game then pendlebury. That suggests selwood is better and more consistent. How do you define pendlebury being better?
I don't think that's true. It's a close discussion either way.
Swan for a period of 12-24 months was probably considered the best player in the game, around that MVP period.
Selwood has never been considered that in the AFL, at any time.
Selwood however has Swan for longevity and volume.
They both have their cases but neither has the other "well covered", that's just one-eyed bias.
Buckley vs Danger is an interesting debate.
Voss and Hird both had strong captancies and are premiership players.
Danger has been AA so many times and finally got his elusive premiership. I'd have him at least on par Bucks, if not slightly ahead.
It all depends on what criteria you use to rate players. None of Danger, Fyfe or JUdd can kick straight. When Danger or Fyfe line up for a goal I always expect them to miss. Do you make them down or just look at their overall impact?
- Sep 25, 2013
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Dangerfield underrated.
Makes this side quite easily imo.
Makes this side quite easily imo.
- Jul 20, 2010
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- #358
I slightly disagree; but respect your opinion.
Buckley also had a strong captaincy, led a pretty average team into two grand finals - never had the cattle around him like Voss and Hird did - he's on the same level in my opinion, obviously a bit of bias due to the amount of focus I had on Buckley being a Pies fan.
But I wouldn't begrudge anyone placing Dangerfield up in that second bracket. Honestly, they're all studs. I dislike the posters who think there's some huge margin between all these guys and that there couldn't possibly be wiggle room for subjectivity.
I said somewhere above that those tiers to me are separated by a bee's dick. I'd also add a few players on the tiers too; S. Mitchell definitely in there.
Also, I still maintain to this day: Kouta at his best, was the best I've seen in-person.
- Mar 7, 2006
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Selwood has more Brownlow votes because he’s been in a far superior team over 15 years. 4 premierships will attest to that.
If your solely using Brownlow votes as a point of reference then you mustn’t rate Gary Ablett Snr very highly then.
I define Pendlebury as being better because he is far more skilful then Selwood and has the best footy IQ that I can remember anyone having, the play stands still around Pendles. The only facet of the game in which Selwood is superior is he’s toughness and contested ball.
But as I said earlier, I’m not taking anything away from Selwood, it’s my opinion, you don’t have to agree.
It’s been a big week for Geelong with everything going on but Pendlebury for me has been the better player.
RichLeMonde
Club Legend
Tiers ranked by influence on outcome of games
1. GAJ, finals version of Dusty, 2000 Kouta
2. Hird, Greg Williams (for comparison's sake)
3. Danger, Buckley, Voss, Goodes, Judd, peak Swan (some of these guys' best seasons would be in tier 2)
4. Black, Selwood, Fyfe, Pendles, R Harvey, Mitchell, Ricciuto
Probably a bit random to include Hird, since he really was a part-timer as a mid. Not sure where to put Hodge, another part-timer in the middle. Probably tier 4, but finals Hodge tier 3
curnow inferno
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- Nov 22, 2017
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- #361
I love your tier 1 to me that is very clear cut.
But id have bucks and judd up in 2 especially since youre picking specific periods for the ones in tier 1
RichLeMonde
Club Legend
Yeah Judd in 05, Danger in 2015, Some of Bucks’ early years, Goodes’ second Brownlow year were pretty special.
Maybe Greg Williams should be up there with GAJ, finals Dusty and 2000 Kouta - I still feel he was a half level above those other guys
And selwood has had more competition for votes. Ablett, bartel, sj, danger. Three of which are also brownlow winners.
who has pendlebury competed with after swan left? Plus collingwood has hardly been unsuccessful during pendleburys era. He has played what 3 grand finals?
I have a small query on Matthew Lloyd's inclusion (please ignore who I support), which is mostly due to his career being split between the 90s and 2000s.
From the year 2000 onwards, he kicked 681 goals at 3.6 per game, from 189 matches, won a premiership and 3 Coleman medals. Member of the AA team 3 times, and won 2 B+Fs. Yes I know players careers can't just come down to stats and accolades, but let's do just that for moment.
The other candidate I'd raise is Jack Riewoldt, with an acknowledgement of Hawkins and Kennedy
Riewoldt: 3x Coleman medal, 3x AA team, 2x B+F, 3x Premiership player. 726 goals from 325 games, average of 2.3 goals per game.
Realistically, their stats and accolades match up quite well, with the biggest difference being goals per game. It's widely acknowledged that key forwards kick less goals per game and per season now than even 20 years ago, with the winning Coleman average being 86.5 in Lloyd's 10 years playing this century, against 72.8 from Jack's 15 seasons (I ignored the 2020 season for obvious reasons). I'll recognize that Lloyd was his club's captain and Jack was not, though he is a long-standing vice-captain.
So, by way of comparison:
I think I personally would have Riewoldt in for the nominated time-period (2000 onwards), however if we're including whole career I'd select Lloyd.
Apologies if this has been raised before now, I've only read the last couple of pages.
From the year 2000 onwards, he kicked 681 goals at 3.6 per game, from 189 matches, won a premiership and 3 Coleman medals. Member of the AA team 3 times, and won 2 B+Fs. Yes I know players careers can't just come down to stats and accolades, but let's do just that for moment.
The other candidate I'd raise is Jack Riewoldt, with an acknowledgement of Hawkins and Kennedy
Riewoldt: 3x Coleman medal, 3x AA team, 2x B+F, 3x Premiership player. 726 goals from 325 games, average of 2.3 goals per game.
Realistically, their stats and accolades match up quite well, with the biggest difference being goals per game. It's widely acknowledged that key forwards kick less goals per game and per season now than even 20 years ago, with the winning Coleman average being 86.5 in Lloyd's 10 years playing this century, against 72.8 from Jack's 15 seasons (I ignored the 2020 season for obvious reasons). I'll recognize that Lloyd was his club's captain and Jack was not, though he is a long-standing vice-captain.
So, by way of comparison:
- Goals total: Riewoldt
- Goals avg: Lloyd
- Games / seasons played: Riewoldt
- Individual accolades + awards: even
- Team success: Riewoldt
I think I personally would have Riewoldt in for the nominated time-period (2000 onwards), however if we're including whole career I'd select Lloyd.
Apologies if this has been raised before now, I've only read the last couple of pages.
- May 5, 2016
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The ‘2000 Kouta’ argument needs to breathe IMO. I have nothing against him and I have nothing against people going back and lauding how good he was during that period but it’s 20-odd games. There are dozens of players who get left out of these sorts of discussions because they only peaked for a short time. However good he was - and he WAS exceptional - a patch of form like that isn’t enough to definitively be removed from ‘fluke’ territory.
Like seriously Alan Jakovich’s lifespan as an elite full forward was 47 games for 201 goals: if he played 250 matches at that rate he’s in the 1000 club and HE gets left out of every debate about full forwards.
Obviously Kouta played 16 seasons but he was only really elite for 1 other one - his AA year in 95 - so I don’t see how the whole ‘oh but for one 20 game bracket he was incredible’ argument stacks up.
Like seriously Alan Jakovich’s lifespan as an elite full forward was 47 games for 201 goals: if he played 250 matches at that rate he’s in the 1000 club and HE gets left out of every debate about full forwards.
Obviously Kouta played 16 seasons but he was only really elite for 1 other one - his AA year in 95 - so I don’t see how the whole ‘oh but for one 20 game bracket he was incredible’ argument stacks up.
Port has finished top 4 in 7 of the 22 seasons so far, but the only players I could really put forward as a mention are Tredrea and Gray. Boak is a club legend but many players have him covered across the rest of the league, Wines maybe a slight chance in the future but he'd have to lead us to a premiership or two by the end of his career to stake a real claim, and even then its not for sure up against names like Judd, Voss, Buckley, Selwood, Martin etc. I don't agree with the Tom Stewart selection at the moment. I know he's a 4x All Australian, but sometimes I feel like the media has an influence on selections and skews our perception a bit. He's a good player no doubt, but I honestly think someone like Chad Cornes was even a better player than he is. I'd probably have Darren Glass in his place.
curnow inferno
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- Nov 22, 2017
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i actually think peak tredrea was slightly better than n.riewoldt but the only difference i had was riewoldt was better for longer with injuries significantly hampering the back half of tredders' career. gray is another one who could easily be in there i just had aker very marginally ahead.
Greg Williams in the team of the 21st century….?
- Banned
- #370
Scrolled through a few pages and thought I’d go into bat for our boys, I think Dane Swan has been criminally underrated, went into the 2010 Brownlow medal count as the shortest priced Brownlow favourite in the history of the game, won 2011 as favourite, he starts on ball for mine, he demolished teams, better player than Buckley IMO, may not have been as pleasing to the eye compared to Bucks/Judd but his output was, and his disposal wasn’t any worse than Judds, put 22 Judds against 22 Swans in their prime against one another and the Swans win by plenty, Swan is only behind Ablett and Dusty as mids iMO.
Glad to see Pendles get recognition, no one like him.
Clement deserved a mention or 2, how quickly people forget, he was a better player than Archer IMO, he changed the game and his left foot was something to behold.
Glad to see Pendles get recognition, no one like him.
Clement deserved a mention or 2, how quickly people forget, he was a better player than Archer IMO, he changed the game and his left foot was something to behold.
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- Banned
- #371
3rd most Brownlow votes? Sam Mitchell is 4th, I don’t know about Danger, freak player obviously, I’m trying to weigh up if him playing for 2 clubs has an affect on my rating of him, also, when I compare him to Pendles I have Pendles on top largely due to Pendles being better over the last 2/3 years, Pendles has the 5th most Brownlow votes.
my attempt.
Enright Fletcher Scarlett
McLeod Rance Stewart
Black Voss Buckley
Danger N Reiwolt Martin
Betts Buddy Aker
Cox Judd Ablett.
Int: Fyfe, Goodes, Pav, Pendles.
Notes: People will crucify me for not having Selwood or Hodge. They were exceptional leaders but their talent wasn't to the same level as the guys that made it. Looks biased having Pav on the bench but he is the only guy on the list to make the AA from 3 different positions so is the ultimate utility. I reckon Hird played too much in the 90s otherwise he'd be on here. Debated Hawkins and Reiwolt for a long time and went with Reiwolt in the end.
Enright Fletcher Scarlett
McLeod Rance Stewart
Black Voss Buckley
Danger N Reiwolt Martin
Betts Buddy Aker
Cox Judd Ablett.
Int: Fyfe, Goodes, Pav, Pendles.
Notes: People will crucify me for not having Selwood or Hodge. They were exceptional leaders but their talent wasn't to the same level as the guys that made it. Looks biased having Pav on the bench but he is the only guy on the list to make the AA from 3 different positions so is the ultimate utility. I reckon Hird played too much in the 90s otherwise he'd be on here. Debated Hawkins and Reiwolt for a long time and went with Reiwolt in the end.
- Banned
- #373
Premierships should have no bearing on this, this is individual, traditionally it’s been Pendles v Selwood, wins as captain shouldn’t mean anything either considering there are 21 other players on the team, if Selwood was drafted by Collingwood instead of Pendles does that mean we win 2007/2009/2011 and 2022? Get real.
Do you really want to measure personal awards against Pendlebury? He has almost all the awards Selwood has, except he has a Norm Smith wildcard that trumps anything Selwood has, and Swan was a better player than Pendlebury IMO without the awards, although he does have a few.
- Banned
- #374
If you have blonde hair you’re a chance, Peter Moore won 2 and Scot Wynd (shakes head in disbelief) won one.
- Banned
- #375
Danger has also only played for finals bound teams making Brownlow votes obsolete IMO, he’s had much more opportunities to gain votes than anyone else in the game currently, I reckon after using your formula Clark Keating was a better player than Danger, he won 3 flags FFS.
