AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)

[Ginnieboy]

Selwood could easily have been given the norm smith In 2011. No real difference in terms of performing in big games.

And selwood averages more brownlow votes per game then pendlebury. career outcomes are more important then stringing the best single season together. And selwood arguably has that anyway given he came second in the brownlow one year.

And how many games has Selwood won compared to Pendlebury? You know, on occasion, umpires give votes to the winning team.

Now that you brought that up, Dane Swan beats Selwood under your Brownlow average and not by the 0.03 Selwood beats Pendlebury by but 0.10, and just to polish off your post, Swan actually won a Brownlow, and lost another as the shortest priced Brownlow medal favourite in history of the sport, would you like to add anything else? I reckon Selwood earned a lot more free’s though.

 

[Ginnieboy]

Disagree with you mate, Pendlebury has been probably just about the most consistent player of the modern era.

As a player he has Selwood covered. Selwood has him covered as a leader and Selwood has had the luxury of being apart of better teams then Pendles.

But Pendles has been the better IMO, taking absolutely nothing away from Selwood as both are first ballot HOF players and even with the potential to be Legends one day.

Pendles 2 time best captain, Selwood 1.

 

[Ginnieboy]

Neither pendlebury or selwood should be anywhere near the backline.

stewart deserves a nod in the back 6. 4 starting all australians in 6 years is phenomenal. No defender has that sort of strike rate. Only injury will stop him from getting another 2.

My take, the strong teams get the majority of AA players, didn’t you get 6 or 7 AAs one year? Around 30% of your players earned AA honours lol, GTFO, is that because you had 7 players who were the best in their position or was it because the team overall contributed to it? Corey Enright won 33 AA jumpers didn’t he? Was that because he was the most outstanding defender the game has seen, or was it because the team was so strong life was very easy as a mid size defender? James Clement and Glen Archer were much better players than Corey Enright IMO.

Stewart reminds me of Clement, he too shits on Enright.

 

[Ginnieboy]

I slightly disagree; but respect your opinion.

Buckley also had a strong captaincy, led a pretty average team into two grand finals - never had the cattle around him like Voss and Hird did - he's on the same level in my opinion, obviously a bit of bias due to the amount of focus I had on Buckley being a Pies fan.

But I wouldn't begrudge anyone placing Dangerfield up in that second bracket. Honestly, they're all studs. I dislike the posters who think there's some huge margin between all these guys and that there couldn't possibly be wiggle room for subjectivity.

I said somewhere above that those tiers to me are separated by a bee's dick. I'd also add a few players on the tiers too; S. Mitchell definitely in there.

Also, I still maintain to this day: Kouta at his best, was the best I've seen in-person.

Kouta in high gear was just unfair, best player I’ve seen, injury ****ed him, when on song though WOW!!

 

[Fadge]

I have a small query on Matthew Lloyd's inclusion (please ignore who I support), which is mostly due to his career being split between the 90s and 2000s.

From the year 2000 onwards, he kicked 681 goals at 3.6 per game, from 189 matches, won a premiership and 3 Coleman medals. Member of the AA team 3 times, and won 2 B+Fs. Yes I know players careers can't just come down to stats and accolades, but let's do just that for moment.

The other candidate I'd raise is Jack Riewoldt, with an acknowledgement of Hawkins and Kennedy

Riewoldt: 3x Coleman medal, 3x AA team, 2x B+F, 3x Premiership player. 726 goals from 325 games, average of 2.3 goals per game.

Realistically, their stats and accolades match up quite well, with the biggest difference being goals per game. It's widely acknowledged that key forwards kick less goals per game and per season now than even 20 years ago, with the winning Coleman average being 86.5 in Lloyd's 10 years playing this century, against 72.8 from Jack's 15 seasons (I ignored the 2020 season for obvious reasons). I'll recognize that Lloyd was his club's captain and Jack was not, though he is a long-standing vice-captain.

So, by way of comparison:

• Goals total: Riewoldt
• Goals avg: Lloyd
• Games / seasons played: Riewoldt
• Individual accolades + awards: even
• Team success: Riewoldt

I think I personally would have Riewoldt in for the nominated time-period (2000 onwards), however if we're including whole career I'd select Lloyd.

Apologies if this has been raised before now, I've only read the last couple of pages.

I agree with this rationale and reckon it can also be used against the likes of Buckley, Voss and Mcleod.

 

[Underarm]

I have a small query on Matthew Lloyd's inclusion (please ignore who I support), which is mostly due to his career being split between the 90s and 2000s.

From the year 2000 onwards, he kicked 681 goals at 3.6 per game, from 189 matches, won a premiership and 3 Coleman medals. Member of the AA team 3 times, and won 2 B+Fs. Yes I know players careers can't just come down to stats and accolades, but let's do just that for moment.

The other candidate I'd raise is Jack Riewoldt, with an acknowledgement of Hawkins and Kennedy

Riewoldt: 3x Coleman medal, 3x AA team, 2x B+F, 3x Premiership player. 726 goals from 325 games, average of 2.3 goals per game.

Realistically, their stats and accolades match up quite well, with the biggest difference being goals per game. It's widely acknowledged that key forwards kick less goals per game and per season now than even 20 years ago, with the winning Coleman average being 86.5 in Lloyd's 10 years playing this century, against 72.8 from Jack's 15 seasons (I ignored the 2020 season for obvious reasons). I'll recognize that Lloyd was his club's captain and Jack was not, though he is a long-standing vice-captain.

So, by way of comparison:

• Goals total: Riewoldt
• Goals avg: Lloyd
• Games / seasons played: Riewoldt
• Individual accolades + awards: even
• Team success: Riewoldt

I think I personally would have Riewoldt in for the nominated time-period (2000 onwards), however if we're including whole career I'd select Lloyd.

Apologies if this has been raised before now, I've only read the last couple of pages.

Probably just easier to keep Lloyd in. If you include Reiwoldt the thread will devolve into a 50 page fight over Riewoldt/Hawkins/Kennedy.

 

[PhatBoy]

My take, the strong teams get the majority of AA players, didn’t you get 6 or 7 AAs one year? Around 30% of your players earned AA honours lol, GTFO, is that because you had 7 players who were the best in their position or was it because the team overall contributed to it? Corey Enright won 33 AA jumpers didn’t he? Was that because he was the most outstanding defender the game has seen, or was it because the team was so strong life was very easy as a mid size defender? James Clement and Glen Archer were much better players than Corey Enright IMO.

Stewart reminds me of Clement, he too shits on Enright.

Take a Valium mate.

 

[pieman123]

Selwood averages more brownlow votes per game then pendlebury. That suggests selwood is better and more consistent. How do you define pendlebury being better?

Pendles now with 14 out of 17 seasons finishing in the top 3 of the Bnf is remarkable consistency.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

J. Gibson M. Scarlett D. Fletcher
C. Enright A. Rance L. Hodge
C. Judd S. Mitchell J. Akermanis
D. Martin J. Brown S. Johnson
P. Chapman M. Lloyd L. Franklin
N. Naitanui A. Goodes G. Ablett

Int : P. Dangerfield, N. Fyfe, S. Pendlebury, M. Richardson

Sub : M. Pavlich

Coach : Clarkson

Forgot about Dustin Fletcher

Dustin Fletcher

Age

49

Ht

198cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.0

4star

K

12.3

5star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.7

4star

T

1.2

3star

MG

301.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

14.2

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

2.8

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

, he comes in for Stewart.

 

[HairyO]

J. Gibson M. Scarlett T. Stewart
C. Enright A. Rance L. Hodge
C. Judd S. Mitchell J. Akermanis
D. Martin J. Brown S. Johnson
P. Chapman M. Lloyd L. Franklin
N. Naitanui A. Goodes G. Ablett

Int : P. Dangerfield, N. Fyfe, S. Pendlebury, M. Richardson

Sub : M. Pavlich
Coach : Clarkson

Swap Birchall for Stewart and thats a pretty good team.

Cox for NicNat probably too.

 

[PhatBoy]

Lol at some of the Corey Enright calls here. Vies with Doull as the best small defender in the history of the game, pumped out 20+ touches a game for a decade and rendered virtually any opponent ineffective

 

[HairyO]

Lol at some of the Corey Enright calls here. Vies with Doull as the best small defender in the history of the game, pumped out 20+ touches a game for a decade and rendered virtually any opponent ineffective

Enright was brilliant. But so was Gary Ayres.

Need to be careful with Geelong and Carlton players because the AA since the very beginning have massively over represented them.

 

[PhatBoy]

Enright was brilliant. But so was Gary Ayres.

Need to be careful with Geelong and Carlton players because the AA since the very beginning have massively over represented them.

Absolutely Ayres was a champion, no argument from me there.
We definitely benefited from how dominant we were: players like Mooney, James Kelly, Darren Milburn and Andrew Mackie got AA starts as a consequence of being important parts of well functioning lines on the field rather than through being exceptionally strong individually. Players like Enright, Johnson, Ablett, Selwood, Hawkins, Chapman (half small forward half contested mid) and Bartel (bit of an everywhere man) are all rightfully considered among the best handful in their role this century though. Same as the standouts from the hawks sides of the 80s should rightfully be considered among the best of the 75-2000 crop: Dunstall, Ayres, Langford, Matthews etc obviously are all among the best few in their respective roles

Even Ling, IF you were going to pick a tagger, was probably the best this century.

 

[HairyO]

Absolutely Ayres was a champion, no argument from me there.
We definitely benefited from how dominant we were: players like Mooney, James Kelly, Darren Milburn and Andrew Mackie got AA starts as a consequence of being important parts of well functioning lines on the field rather than through being exceptionally strong individually. Players like Enright, Johnson, Ablett, Selwood, Hawkins, Chapman (half small forward half contested mid) and Bartel (bit of an everywhere man) are all rightfully considered among the best handful in their role this century though. Same as the standouts from the hawks sides of the 80s should rightfully be considered among the best of the 75-2000 crop: Dunstall, Ayres, Langford, Matthews etc obviously are all among the best few in their respective roles

Even Ling, IF you were going to pick a tagger, was probably the best this century.

We have just as many flags this century, and far more who got 4 of them.

Ling may be the best tagger but as a player is WAY down the list. The AA starting position was the Geelong team then replace. They have many ridiculous picks. Though Carlton and the Swans have benefited from their laziness/incompetence too.

 

[PhatBoy]

We have just as many flags this century, and far more who got 4 of them.

Ling may be the best tagger but as a player is WAY down the list. The AA starting position was the Geelong team then replace. They have many ridiculous picks. Though Carlton and the Swans have benefited from their laziness/incompetence too.

Who of the Hawks triple premiership team would you say is the best in their role across the league this century? I’d say Hodge and Franklin - and Franklin missed two of the flags so that takes out the notion that just winning flags makes you a walk up anyway. Mitchell is obviously in the midfield mix.

Lake? Exceptional player but doesn’t have the career body of work that Scarlett and Rance did. Not his fault but he’s a victim of other players simply being better. I would also rank glass and possibly Fletcher with or above him.
Roughead? A full career at his best and he could have been anything but unfortunately we will never know. Certainly elite but he’s not pushing into the top 3-5 in his role as long as the Riewoldts, Hawkins, Pavlich and Treadrea are thereabouts.
Birchall was a good solid player but he wasn’t exceptional, likewise Jordan Lewis.
Gibson took the Tom Harley role as the sort of spare defender and he WAS very very good at it and I think is perhaps the most underrated of the Hawks regulars but he’s not pushing the two key defenders out of this side and bias though I may be, he’s not Tom Stewart either so it doesn’t leave him much of an opportunity.
Rioli I guess is the most contentious one. Depends on what you want from a small forward.

I don’t get why Hawks fans get so antsy about this though: the hallmark of your great sides was the fact that they got such even contributions from such a huge range of players and worked well to a refined gameplan and executed each of their roles to perfection.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Swap Birchall for Stewart and thats a pretty good team.

Cox for NicNat probably too.

I'm not interested in Cox's running power and link up play, that's what the other 21 are for, I want Naitanui shovelling it down their throats and he's pretty much the best I've ever seen at doing that.

Could make an argument for any number of players on the hbf, Stewart has been in the league for 6 completed seasons and has been named AA for 4 of them, that's good enough for me. I think the players I've picked have a nice combination of spoiling, lockdown and intercept. They're not Birchall by foot but none of them are poor kicks.

I'd liked to have squeezed in Lake but it's not an AA side so there's only room for the one fullback. I considered Cyril for the sub role as a high impact player to come on for a short period of time but he limits you in what roles he can play.

 

[HairyO]

Who of the Hawks triple premiership team would you say is the best in their role across the league this century? I’d say Hodge and Franklin - and Franklin missed two of the flags so that takes out the notion that just winning flags makes you a walk up anyway. Mitchell is obviously in the midfield mix.

Lake? Exceptional player but doesn’t have the career body of work that Scarlett and Rance did. Not his fault but he’s a victim of other players simply being better. I would also rank glass and possibly Fletcher with or above him.
Roughead? A full career at his best and he could have been anything but unfortunately we will never know. Certainly elite but he’s not pushing into the top 3-5 in his role as long as the Riewoldts, Hawkins, Pavlich and Treadrea are thereabouts.
Birchall was a good solid player but he wasn’t exceptional, likewise Jordan Lewis.
Gibson took the Tom Harley role as the sort of spare defender and he WAS very very good at it and I think is perhaps the most underrated of the Hawks regulars but he’s not pushing the two key defenders out of this side and bias though I may be, he’s not Tom Stewart either so it doesn’t leave him much of an opportunity.
Rioli I guess is the most contentious one. Depends on what you want from a small forward.

I don’t get why Hawks fans get so antsy about this though: the hallmark of your great sides was the fact that they got such even contributions from such a huge range of players and worked well to a refined gameplan and executed each of their roles to perfection.

Birchall was as good as any. Tom Stewart but better, without the hoops. This year showed how pathetic the AA mob are when they ignored Sicily who had one of the best defensive years in modern history and went for a guy who missed 5 games and was injured early in a 6th, and who was behind in every measure.

As for who from us: Gibbo. 2 x B&F in Premiership years.
Gunston's goal average in Grand Finals is higher than any of his other games.
Lewis could easily have had a NS and his 2014 was just huge, but completely ignored by umpires.
Mitchell is an all time great Centre / HBF.
And Cyril. Players werent hyperbollic when talking about fearing how ferocious he was. An incredible career shortened by injury and a **** wit President just his 2008 highlights (his 1st year) are better than 75% of all players entire career. 2015 GF he destroyed West Coast on his own in the 1st quarter.

And back to Birchall, was as clean a kick as anyone in the game, and unlike modern defenders who kick sideways 90% of the time would do the long kicks out of defence.

When discussing coaches its "Clarko was blessed with great players."

When discussing players its "Clarko got the most out of above average, but not brilliant players."

 

[HairyO]

I'm not interested in Cox's running power and link up play, that's what the other 21 are for, I want Naitanui shovelling it down their throats and he's pretty much the best I've ever seen at doing that.

Could make an argument for any number of players on the hbf, Stewart has been in the league for 6 completed seasons and has been named AA for 4 of them, that's good enough for me. I think the players I've picked have a nice combination of spoiling, lockdown and intercept. They're not Birchall by foot but none of them are poor kicks.

I'd liked to have squeezed in Lake but it's not an AA side so there's only room for the one fullback. I considered Cyril for the sub role as a high impact player to come on for a short period of time but he limits you in what roles he can play.

Lake elevated us for sure. Cleared Gibbo to do what he did best.

Cyril when fit was just as dangerous in the middle as when forward. Would have been as good a sub as anyone else.

As for Stewart, I already mentioned that above. Even many Geelong supporters dont think he deserved this year. Birchall easily has him covered.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Who of the Hawks triple premiership team would you say is the best in their role across the league this century? I’d say Hodge and Franklin - and Franklin missed two of the flags so that takes out the notion that just winning flags makes you a walk up anyway. Mitchell is obviously in the midfield mix.

Lake? Exceptional player but doesn’t have the career body of work that Scarlett and Rance did. Not his fault but he’s a victim of other players simply being better. I would also rank glass and possibly Fletcher with or above him.
Roughead? A full career at his best and he could have been anything but unfortunately we will never know. Certainly elite but he’s not pushing into the top 3-5 in his role as long as the Riewoldts, Hawkins, Pavlich and Treadrea are thereabouts.
Birchall was a good solid player but he wasn’t exceptional, likewise Jordan Lewis.
Gibson took the Tom Harley role as the sort of spare defender and he WAS very very good at it and I think is perhaps the most underrated of the Hawks regulars but he’s not pushing the two key defenders out of this side and bias though I may be, he’s not Tom Stewart either so it doesn’t leave him much of an opportunity.
Rioli I guess is the most contentious one. Depends on what you want from a small forward.

I don’t get why Hawks fans get so antsy about this though: the hallmark of your great sides was the fact that they got such even contributions from such a huge range of players and worked well to a refined gameplan and executed each of their roles to perfection.

Gibson like Enright was a club b&f winner twice in premiership years. Good enough for me.

Lake for me was the equal of Scarlett and Rance but just doesn't have their longevity due to injury and issues.

Roughead no, not when he's competing with Riewoldt, Tredrea, Brown etc.

Dustin Fletcher is the one I forgot about. He goes into my side in place of Tom Stewart. Dustin played tall, small, could run, kick, spoil and mark as well as any of them and was pretty much unflappable, that's my only tiny query on Stewart despite what I'd already posted about him, when things aren't going his way, they go south very badly, he doesn't seem to have the ability to correct it within a game, luckily for Geelong it doesn't happen too often.

 

[PhatBoy]

Birchall was as good as any. Tom Stewart but better, without the hoops. This year showed how pathetic the AA mob are when they ignored Sicily who had one of the best defensive years in modern history and went for a guy who missed 5 games and was injured early in a 6th, and who was behind in every measure.

As for who from us: Gibbo. 2 x B&F in Premiership years.
Gunston's goal average in Grand Finals is higher than any of his other games.
Lewis could easily have had a NS and his 2014 was just huge, but completely ignored by umpires.
Mitchell is an all time great Centre / HBF.
And Cyril. Players werent hyperbollic when talking about fearing how ferocious he was. An incredible career shortened by injury and a * wit President just his 2008 highlights (his 1st year) are better than 75% of all players entire career. 2015 GF he destroyed West Coast on his own in the 1st quarter.

And back to Birchall, was as clean a kick as anyone in the game, and unlike modern defenders who kick sideways 90% of the time would do the long kicks out of defence.

When discussing coaches its "Clarko was blessed with great players."

When discussing players its "Clarko got the most out of above average, but not brilliant players."

Jack Gunston? really?

Based on a couple of grand finals? He averages 0.13 goals per game more than Johnson, and plays as a permanent forward, getting 5 less touches a game and having 0.21 less goal assists per game. He’s not squeezing Johnson out. He’s not squeezing a KPF out. Gunston is a fantastic player but ‘he played some good grand finals’ isn’t getting him into a greatest hits team.

Everyone to a man has acknowledged Sicily should have been picked in the AA team this year.

Birchall was a more handball reliant player than Stewart, still very good but I don’t believe was either the best defensive Marshall in his team (hodge) or the best interceptor (Gibson). Stewart is both in his.

If you’re going to go down the path of
‘So and so played 8 great quarters of football in grand finals’ then Dean Cox, Nic Naitanui and Max Gawn don’t get a look in: Brad Ottens is a walk up start for everyone’s team. The man was a finals freak for 5 campaigns.


I won’t ever write off Clarkson’s coaching I think he did a fantastic job shaping the side and getting the most out of champions and role players alike.

 

[Seeds]

And how many games has Selwood won compared to Pendlebury? You know, on occasion, umpires give votes to the winning team.

Now that you brought that up, Dane Swan beats Selwood under your Brownlow average and not by the 0.03 Selwood beats Pendlebury by but 0.10, and just to polish off your post, Swan actually won a Brownlow, and lost another as the shortest priced Brownlow medal favourite in history of the sport, would you like to add anything else? I reckon Selwood earned a lot more free’s though.

And you can make a case that Swan was better. I never discussed Swan. Although selwood played a lot more games out of his peak years before he was 20 and after he was 30 then swan. Swan played like 30 games in his 30s and selwood nearly 100. If you account for this I think you would find selwood trumps Swan too.

 

[HairyO]

Jack Gunston? really?

Based on a couple of grand finals? He averages 0.13 goals per game more than Johnson, and plays as a permanent forward, getting 5 less touches a game and having 0.21 less goal assists per game. He’s not squeezing Johnson out. He’s not squeezing a KPF out. Gunston is a fantastic player but ‘he played some good grand finals’ isn’t getting him into a greatest hits team.

Everyone to a man has acknowledged Sicily should have been picked in the AA team this year.

Birchall was a more handball reliant player than Stewart, still very good but I don’t believe was either the best defensive Marshall in his team (hodge) or the best interceptor (Gibson). Stewart is both in his.

If you’re going to go down the path of
‘So and so played 8 great quarters of football in grand finals’ then Dean Cox, Nic Naitanui and Max Gawn don’t get a look in: Brad Ottens is a walk up start for everyone’s team. The man was a finals freak for 5 campaigns.


I won’t ever write off Clarkson’s coaching I think he did a fantastic job shaping the side and getting the most out of champions and role players alike.

Birchall had 1000 more kicks than Stewart has had disposals. Again, in a era when kicking sideways wasnt a thing. He and Gibbo were the ones who set up all our rebound attacks. Im not sure how many defenders come close to his 6000 disposals.

Im also not saying Gunston makes the list. Just pointing out how good he was.

I said above swap Stewart for Birchall and NicNat for Cox. I wasnt looking to flood the team with Hawthorn players.

Birchall is like Chris Mew. Constantly overlooked by most, despite how critically important he was to the team.

Cox was one of the all time great ruckman. NicNat I dont think makes that list.

 

[PhatBoy]

Birchall had 1000 more kicks than Stewart has had disposals. Again, in a era when kicking sideways wasnt a thing. He and Gibbo were the ones who set up all our rebound attacks. Im not sure how many defenders come close to his 6000 disposals.

Im also not saying Gunston makes the list. Just pointing out how good he was.

I said above swap Stewart for Birchall and NicNat for Cox. I wasnt looking to flood the team with Hawthorn players.

Birchall is like Chris Mew. Constantly overlooked by most, despite how critically important he was to the team.

Cox was one of the all time great ruckman. NicNat I dont think makes that list.

Yes players who complete 16 seasons will often find themselves ahead in numerous aggregate categories than players who’ve played 6, one of which was cut short by 5 rounds. Stewart averages just shy of 16 kicks per game. Birchall 12. Again I’m not and haven’t said Birchall wasn’t an excellent player but I don’t think at any stage he would have vied for ‘best backman in the comp.’ Stewart across 3-4 years has probably held that title or at least competed for it.

I would love Jack Gunston in my team he’s a fantastic player.

 

[Fadge]

Pendles now with 14 out of 17 seasons finishing in the top 3 of the Bnf is remarkable consistency.

Yep, reckon if it was a 'true' 2000 onwards, meaning Buckley, Voss and Mcleod are out, you replace them with Black, Selwood and Pendlebury.

Not bad replacements...

 

[Back One Out]

Lol at some of the Corey Enright calls here. Vies with Doull as the best small defender in the history of the game, pumped out 20+ touches a game for a decade and rendered virtually any opponent ineffective

Doull wasn't a small defender

He was 6-2 back when key position players ranged from 6-1 to 6-4

He played at CHB in roughly half of his games

I'd have Corey Enright on a par with Gary Ayres.