AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)

[RichLeMonde]

How many times was Martin actually named in the All Australian team? Oh yeah that’s right. Doesn’t cut it with the greats of this century.

Pendlebury has been named on the ground in the AA only twice, Martin 3 times. Martin has been named to his actual position in the AA twice (starting on the ball or half forward), Pendlebury 0. I’m not sure that 4 x benchwarmer is enough for a team of the century

 

[Fadge]

Pendlebury has been named on the ground in the AA only twice, Martin 3 times. Martin has been named to his actual position in the AA twice (starting on the ball or half forward), Pendlebury 0. I’m not sure that 4 x benchwarmer is enough for a team of the century

You really are continuing the references to AA despite being a Martin fanboi?

Wowee.

 

[Frewy]

Give me Breust over Milne every day of the week.

On Breust, a lot leaving him out which suggests he is underrated. He his likely to pass 600+ goals (528 now) and his only contemporaries for general forward are Brad Johnson (if eligible) and Stevie J, with O'Loughlin a little bit off.

I have Betts just ahead of Milne as the best goal sneak this century (<180 cm), perhaps not if the ball had bounced a different way. Cyril Rioli would have taken that mantle with less goals had he played a few more seasons to my mind.

 

[PhatBoy]

On Breust, a lot leaving him out which suggests he is underrated. He his likely to pass 600+ goals (528 now) and his only contemporaries for general forward are Brad Johnson (if eligible) and Stevie J, with O'Loughlin a little bit off.

I have Betts just ahead of Milne as the best goal sneak this century (<180 cm), perhaps not if the ball had bounced a different way. Cyril Rioli would have taken that mantle with less goals had he played a few more seasons to my mind.

I rate all the players you’ve mentioned highly but as he was a particular favourite of mine I will go into bat for Steve Johnson: he kicked an amount of goals that any specialist small or general forward would be proud of while also gathering nearly 20 touches a game and legitimately spending vast periods in the midfield. I seriously don’t think people realise just how good he was

 

[Frewy]

I rate all the players you’ve mentioned highly but as he was a particular favourite of mine I will go into bat for Steve Johnson: he kicked an amount of goals that any specialist small or general forward would be proud of while also gathering nearly 20 touches a game and legitimately spending vast periods in the midfield. I seriously don’t think people realise just how good he was

I had both Breust and Stevie J in my side. If Brad Johnson was also eligible I have no idea how I would split them.

Steve Johnson had the goal average, flags, Norm Smith and also changed the way the game is played with his goalkicking.
Brad Johnson had the goals, games, AAs and club medals.

Breust is below both as it sits right now, but like I said if he goes 600-650+ we need to have another chat.

 

[Lingsface]

Why have you picked Chris Johnson and Tom Stewart in your backline, but not Corey Enright?



Here's a dozen mids I would rather have as my 4th bench-warmer instead of Lachie Neale

Sam Mitchell
Simon Black
Mark Ricciuto
Joel Selwood
Dane Swan
Josh Kennedy
Jimmy Bartel
Stevie Johnson
Brent Harvey
Ben Cousins
Patrick Cripps
Trent Cotchin

Ok fair enough it is hard to seperate them.

 

[adammania9]

It is weird as I remember Swans playing Collingwood in that period and all the discussion on our board was how the hell do we stop Lumumba as he carved us up every time. Wasn't anywhere near as worried about Pendlebury.

We used to have the same discussions on the Collingwood board when we played Sydney. Goodes wasn’t near worried about as much as Paul Bevan.

 

[Mr Meow]

We used to have the same discussions on the Collingwood board when we played Sydney. Goodes wasn’t near worried about as much as Paul Bevan.

LRT kept me up at night.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Content for him to be 4th behind GAJ, Buddy and Judd at this stage.

When he stops squibbing it when confronting physical contact he’ll be considered. Hopefully his third season in 2024 will see the end of this embarrassing little trait.


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[Noidnadroj]

By the end of this century, the Gary Ayres award (finals MVP) and Norm Smith would have been going for 84 years and 120 years respectively.

So if there aren’t multiple players with more than 3 / 3, then Martin would be a 100% lock for retaining his spot in the TOTC.

And it’s not just the 3/3 … people will see : 300+ games, Brownlow, 9+ top-3 B&F, 3 flags, 210+ Brownlow votes etc…. and go “Wow, nobody has ever done 3/3, how good must this guy have been?’


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[RUNVS]

By the end of this century, the Gary Ayres award (finals MVP) and Norm Smith would have been going for 84 years and 120 years respectively.

So if there aren’t multiple players with more than 3 / 3, then Martin would be a 100% lock for retaining his spot in the TOTC.

And it’s not just the 3/3 … people will see : 300+ games, Brownlow, 9+ top-3 B&F, 3 flags, 210+ Brownlow votes etc…. and go “Wow, nobody has ever done 3/3, how good must this guy have been?’


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Richmond fans really are obsessed with the Norm Smith, and considering how lopsided those games were, and how even Richmond fans at the time did not think Martin should have gotten the 2017 one, I am not sure how relevant the award is.

 

[Mr Meow]

By the end of this century, the Gary Ayres award (finals MVP) and Norm Smith would have been going for 84 years and 120 years respectively.

So if there aren’t multiple players with more than 3 / 3, then Martin would be a 100% lock for retaining his spot in the TOTC.

And it’s not just the 3/3 … people will see : 300+ games, Brownlow, 9+ top-3 B&F, 3 flags, 210+ Brownlow votes etc…. and go “Wow, nobody has ever done 3/3, how good must this guy have been?’


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With all respect, which people will see top 3 in Richmond B&Fs? You're much more likely to peruse and find players top 3 in Brownlow/coaches association award etc. But mostly it's about winning, which is why nobody is gushing over who finishes 3rd in every Ayres award.

Martin has outstanding finals accolades for 3 seasons but only one single year where he won any of the Brownlow, Player MVP or Coaches award. And only two seasons where we won a B&F. He's in the side for sure right now but if Bontempelli wins a Brownlow and single NS/Ayres to finish his career who's to say his résumé isn't better? That would be one of the big individual season accolades in 4 separate seasons. Which is starting to approach Ablett or Judd longevity of peak.

Regardless for the Ayres/NS awards, it can't be used against players who aren't involved in a dynasty or a few flags. They're always going to be the only candidates to win multiples of those. And it (Ayres) still can't be used to compare with players before 2016.

 

[theasian]

B Enright Rance Scarlett
HB Hodge McGovern McLeod
W Goodes Voss Buckley
HF Martin N Riewoldt S Johnson
FF Franklin M Lloyd Betts
R Gawn Judd Ablett Jnr
IC T Stewart P Dangerfield J Akermanis M Pavlich


in the Squad: D Fletcher, C Johnson, Leppa, B Lake, S Pendlebury S Mitchell, S Black, B Cousins, N Fyfe B Johnson, J Hird, M Ricciuto, C Rioli, D Cox, T Hawkins, B Fevola, W Tredrea, S Milne,

 

[Gavin Excell]

Not a question any of us can truly answer but given this is a rolling 21st century team I wonder which players in the current 21st century team will still be in the team in 2099.

Given it has almost been 25 years, or close enough to it, we can probably safely assume that 5 or 6 players in the current best 22 for the 21st century team will still be in that team in 77 years time.

I'd suggest 1-2 players tops will be discussed by 2099 flogs

 

[theasian]

I'd suggest 1-2 players tops will be discussed by 2099 flogs

Probably only Ablett Jnr and Buddy.

 

[Frewy]

By the end of this century, the Gary Ayres award (finals MVP) and Norm Smith would have been going for 84 years and 120 years respectively.

So if there aren’t multiple players with more than 3 / 3, then Martin would be a 100% lock for retaining his spot in the TOTC.

And it’s not just the 3/3 … people will see : 300+ games, Brownlow, 9+ top-3 B&F, 3 flags, 210+ Brownlow votes etc…. and go “Wow, nobody has ever done 3/3, how good must this guy have been?’


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Agreed this is why I have Martin 70/30 to make the side at minimum on interchange. They will have to either go 3/3 or at minimum 2/3 plus trump him in games, goals, AA, club champion, AFLCA etc.

Then you also have to compete with the fact that one of if not the greatest to do it last century declared his 2017 season the greatest ever played. Dusty has the Jordan rule, a perfect GF and MVP record.

You will likely need an unprecedented or legacy piece to be in the 2099 team, it will be harder to get into than 20th century AFL/VFL squad. Think Stevie J changing goalkicking or GAJ leading a new franchise, these will raise you above the two or three others competing for the same spot.

Same for Vos as the greatest captain this century, it will probably take a four-peat or another three-peat captain to go past him, plus all the other accolades including 4 x AFLPA best captain. Lastly there will almost certainly be a slight bias towards 2050-2099 players, it's human nature Dick Lee being a case in point.

 

[RUNVS]

I'd suggest 1-2 players tops will be discussed by 2099 flogs

It is hard to tell as we look back on players from the 1930's and we have all heard of a couple of them, but other than their reputations we know nothing of them as there was no real footage of them playing.

The players in 2023 though, in 2099, that footage, those highlights still exist so these players may be remembered more than the players from the 30's and 40's were for us. Every goal Buddy kicked, every disposal Ablett Jnr had was filmed, which is very different to what it was even in the early 1990's.

 

[JackOutback]

It is hard to tell as we look back on players from the 1930's and we have all heard of a couple of them, but other than their reputations we know nothing of them as there was no real footage of them playing.

The players in 2023 though, in 2099, that footage, those highlights still exist so these players may be remembered more than the players from the 30's and 40's were for us. Every goal Buddy kicked, every disposal Ablett Jnr had was filmed, which is very different to what it was even in the early 1990's.

The footage exists, but who is gonna watch it. Reckon if footage existed of 1930s footy, very people would be perusing it regularly.

 

[Frewy]

It is hard to tell as we look back on players from the 1930's and we have all heard of a couple of them, but other than their reputations we know nothing of them as there was no real footage of them playing.

The players in 2023 though, in 2099, that footage, those highlights still exist so these players may be remembered more than the players from the 30's and 40's were for us. Every goal Buddy kicked, every disposal Ablett Jnr had was filmed, which is very different to what it was even in the early 1990's.

I'd be more worried about the way the game is played and fixturing making the context a lot different. Agree the footage will be there and they might even use AI to pour through this thread to make some decisions for the 2-3 spots they have left.

 

[RUNVS]

The footage exists, but who is gonna watch it. Reckon if footage existed of 1930s footy, very people would be perusing it regularly.

Maybe so, but I do think people would still be interested in seeing the top 10 players of that era, seeing what they could do. I for one would happily watch John Coleman highlights, see if what he did would translate to the modern game.

I know of this footage



which I find really interesting, though it obviously is not good enough quality to really tell much about individual players.

 

[Fadge]

By the end of this century, the Gary Ayres award (finals MVP) and Norm Smith would have been going for 84 years and 120 years respectively.

So if there aren’t multiple players with more than 3 / 3, then Martin would be a 100% lock for retaining his spot in the TOTC.

And it’s not just the 3/3 … people will see : 300+ games, Brownlow, 9+ top-3 B&F, 3 flags, 210+ Brownlow votes etc…. and go “Wow, nobody has ever done 3/3, how good must this guy have been?’

To the contrary, the standard person will be more skilled at analysing data, and not be seduced by the binary nature of 'winning award = 1' and 'not winning award = 0', and therefore refrain from overstating Martin's career on the basis of such a small data set...

People will see Martin was only awarded 4 x AA guernseys, and that will be more of a negative than the 3 x Norm Smiths will be a positive.

As for Gary Ayres Medals, I doubt they will even be considered.

Who won the Ayres Medal in 2016?
2018?

Willing to bet most don't know off the top of their head...

 

[Frewy]

Maybe so, but I do think people would still be interested in seeing the top 10 players of that era, seeing what they could do. I for one would happily watch John Coleman highlights, see if what he did would translate to the modern game.

I know of this footage



which I find really interesting, though it obviously is not good enough quality to really tell much about individual players.

There is footage of Ken Farmer and he does a marking grab and snap around the body that would look straight out of today's game, he was the Bradman of goal kickers for a reason. The best old footage I've seen was the 1909 game three bounces out of the back line, which should be on the pre-game AFL montages.

 

[Noidnadroj]

With all respect, which people will see top 3 in Richmond B&Fs? You're much more likely to peruse and find players top 3 in Brownlow/coaches association award etc. But mostly it's about winning, which is why nobody is gushing over who finishes 3rd in every Ayres award.

Martin has outstanding finals accolades for 3 seasons but only one single year where he won any of the Brownlow, Player MVP or Coaches award. And only two seasons where we won a B&F. He's in the side for sure right now but if Bontempelli wins a Brownlow and single NS/Ayres to finish his career who's to say his résumé isn't better? That would be one of the big individual season accolades in 4 separate seasons. Which is starting to approach Ablett or Judd longevity of peak.

Regardless for the Ayres/NS awards, it can't be used against players who aren't involved in a dynasty or a few flags. They're always going to be the only candidates to win multiples of those. And it (Ayres) still can't be used to compare with players before 2016.

Of course, but you have to be realistic about what awards/achievements are going to influence a TOTC selection in 77 years time. If Martin is the ‘only’ player to have won 3 x NS and 3 x GA awards, then it’s pretty naive to think he won’t be in there. Nobody will be reflecting in 77-years and going ‘gee the GA award has only been going 84-years, maybe we should look more closely at 2001-2015 to see who might’ve won it. And like it or not but in team sport flags matter … because flags require great players standing up at the right time to help win. Pendlebury’s standing in the game seems to have elevated significantly after 1 x great quarter, and rightly so. Players from 16 other teams didn’t have the opportunity to play that single quarter, but that’s just bad luck. History doesn’t care. Playing well in the most important games is one of the biggest factors that influences reputation and greatness in sport. It might not be fair for Robby Flower or Matthew Richardson, but that’s just the way it is.

And we only need to look at what influenced last century, particularly for those selected from prior to 1950. Were Reynolds, Bunton, Stewart, Greig, Skilton, Williams all vastly superior to others across the century? Maybe, maybe not. But we all know why they made the team. KB played 400 games, kicked nearly 800 goals, won 5 x B&F including 3 in Premiership years , won 5 flags and couldn’t get in.

That’s why someone like Pendlebury is unlikely to be in there. No Brownlow. No MVP. 1 x NS. 2 x flags. Nothing special in regards to goals for a midfielder. Captained for a very long time without a flag. He’s finished top-3 in B&F a lot but as you say, nobody will analyse that. There’s nothing at century’s end to sit up and go ‘wow, that guy must have been something special’. We know in 2023 he’s a special player, but when he is lined up against midfielders across 100-years there’s likely to be way too many that have him covered across all the most highly decorated awards. (OF course if he plays 450+ games and nobody else beats that before 2100 then that might be enough).

The only locks for me are GAJ, Buddy and Martin. Because 1,000+ goals will remain a special achievement … others may do it, but anyone who does will make the team. GAJ because his suite of individual awards will stand the test of time. Even if a few players achieve similar or better, they’ll all make the team. And Martin for the same reason. Even if one or more players achieve 3 x NS and/or 3 x GA awards, it’s likely they’ll all make it. Particularly if they’re like Martin and also end up with a Brownlow, MVP, 300+ games, 400+ goals etc…. Of course if they play 150 games and get 3 x NS and 3 x GA awards without much else they probably miss, but not if the 3 x NS and 3 x GA awards are mixed with outstanding longevity.


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[Mr Meow]

Of course, but you have to be realistic about what awards/achievements are going to influence a TOTC selection in 77 years time. If Martin is the ‘only’ player to have won 3 x NS and 3 x GA awards, then it’s pretty naive to think he won’t be in there. Nobody will be reflecting in 77-years and going ‘gee the GA award has only been going 84-years, maybe we should look more closely at 2001-2015 to see who might’ve won it.

Just look at what influenced last century, particularly for those selected from prior to 1950. Were Reynolds, Bunton, Stewart, Greig, Skilton, Williams all vastly superior to others across the century? Maybe, maybe not. But we all know why they made the team. KB played 400 games, kicked nearly 800 goals, won 5 x B&F including 3 in Premiership years , won 5 flags and couldn’t get in.

That’s why someone like Pendlebury is unlikely to be in there. No Brownlow. No MVP. 1 x NS. 2 x flags. Nothing special in regards to goals for a midfielder. Captained for a very long time without a flag. There’s nothing at century’s end to sit up and go ‘wow, that guy must have been something special’. We know in 2023 he’s a special player, but when he is lined up against midfielders across 100-years there’s likely to be way too many that have him covered across all the most highly decorated awards. (OF course if he plays 450+ games and nobody else beats that before 2100 then that might be enough).

The only locks for me are GAJ, Buddy and Martin. Because 1,000+ goals will remain a special achievement … others may do it, but anyone who does will make the team. GAJ because his suite of individual awards will stand the test of time. Even if a few players achieve similar or better, they’ll all make the team. And Martin for the same reason. Even if one or more players achieve 3 x NS and/or 3 x GA awards, it’s likely they’ll all make it. Particularly if they’re like Martin and also end up with a Brownlow, MVP, 300+ games, 400+ goals etc…. Of course if they play 150 games and get 3 x NS and 3 x GA awards without much else they probably miss, but not if the 3 x NS and 3 x GA awards are mixed with outstanding longevity.


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Yeah there's plenty of ways to look at it and I'm not going to necessarily dismiss any of those points. Martin does have the big game specialist tag (with big scoring impact) so he's always going to in contention for that forward flank spot.

"Lock" for the century this far out is a damn high ceiling for praise. Personally I'd think if he had another league MVP and couple more BnFs he'd be more worthy of that. Or did a mini (modern day) Ablett Senior and had a veteran year or two kicking 50/60 goals plus. If a non full forward comes along with multiple Brownlows and 600 plus goals, it would make that spot stiff competition. It might sound silly but there's 75 odd seasons left.

 

[Fadge]

Yeah there's plenty of ways to look at it and I'm not going to necessarily dismiss any of those points. Martin does have the big game specialist tag (with big scoring impact) so he's always going to in contention for that forward flank spot.

"Lock" for the century this far out is a damn high ceiling for praise. Personally I'd think if he had another league MVP and couple more BnFs he'd be more worthy of that. Or did a mini (modern day) Ablett Senior and had a veteran year or two kicking 50/60 goals plus. If a non full forward comes along with multiple Brownlows and 600 plus goals, it would make that spot stiff competition. It might sound silly but there's 75 odd seasons left.

Kevin Bartlett, with more than twice as many goals, would be picked ahead of Martin on a HFF, and he didn't make the first Team of the Century.