News AFL to overhaul the draft, discuss changes to Academy and FS bid matching

[giantroo]

 

[threenewpadlocks]

And the dogs you need to find 3 replacements for Ugle-hagan, Sam Darcy and Liberatore. it's simply not going to happen to find 3.

Liberatore wasn't considered at top-20 player in the draft though.
Sam Darcy hardly contributed to any on-field success before this year.

I'm pretty absolute in saying that premierships mean next to nothing now.

Most people have the common sense to understand that clubs still have to pay something for these players, and they still have to retain them under the salary cap.

So we won it on merit.

No, you didn't because you got Viney. Why is it merit with Viney (a top 5-10 prospect you got with a pick outisde the top 20) but the Dogs not merit with Libba (who wasn't a top 20 prospect?)

 

[GC2015]

I get what you're saying. You've just picked out 1 player though. You'd need to find replacements for 4 players. Daicos x 2, Moore and Quaynor.

And the dogs you need to find 3 replacements for Ugle-hagan, Sam Darcy and Liberatore. it's simply not going to happen to find 3.

Okay if you want to go through it - Collingwood used their natural pick 9 to recruit Darcy Moore, Josh Daicos was drafted with their natural pick 57 and Quaynor was bid on with pick 13 when Collingwood's natural pick that year was 16. I just don't think the Pies are a very good example of what you're suggesting because they were around the mark / used their natural picks anyway.

Let's be really clear about the Bulldogs here - they've gotten worse since they recruited Ugle-Hagan and Darcy when they were the Grand Finalists. They were already good and have fallen away since then. It's not like the Pies or Lions where you could make an argument about F/S picks leading them to a premiership.

I'm pretty absolute in saying that premierships mean next to nothing now. The Dees won a flag with Viney and having only 1 good father/son in 20 years is probably close to an afl low. So we won it on merit.

So it's okay for your club to win a flag with a F/S player in the team, but not other clubs? How does that make any sense?

 

[Obeanie1]

Fair to say this will be one of the last times we'll see a trade like this taking place. Using several third rounders to match a top 2 bid won't be possible from next year onward.

It shouldn't have been allowed this year. AFL was weak as you know what when it folded to the crying Blues and Lions who cracked it when it looked like they will miss out on one last rort in 2024.

So the highest ranked player in the draft will go to the premiers for a hand full of junk picks.

The AFL does love propping up its pet expansion clubs. Seems to happen every year.

 

[GC2015]

It shouldn't have been allowed this year. AFL was weak as you know what when it folded to the crying Blues and Lions who cracked it when it looked like they will miss out on one last rort in 2024.

So the highest ranked player in the draft will go to the premiers for a hand full of junk picks.

The AFL does love propping up its pet expansion clubs. Seems to happen every year.

To be fair, approving future trades from the year before and then pulling the rug to change the rules is unfair on clubs like Carlton and Brisbane, who were only doing those deals 12 months prior because they thought the rules would remain the same. The AFL also has to take some responsibility here if they're going to change the rules on a whim.

Were you as outraged when the Bulldogs got access to pick 2 Sam Darcy after getting the number 1 pick the year before and making the Grand Final in 2021? Seems to be some selective outrage / anti-northern club spin going on here.

 

[Obeanie1]

To be fair, approving future trades from the year before and then pulling the rug to change the rules is unfair on clubs like Carlton and Brisbane, who were only doing those deals 12 months prior because they thought the rules would remain the same. The AFL also has to take some responsibility here if they're going to change the rules on a whim.

Were you as outraged when the Bulldogs got access to pick 2 Sam Darcy after getting the number 1 pick the year before and making the Grand Final in 2021? Seems to be some selective outrage / anti-northern club spin going on here.

What future pick trades?

Carlton stuffed up thinking they would go lower. They will be picked up in the mid to late 20's. Get a 20% discount and pay with 3rd rounders.

Blues then traded in and out of 2024 and 2025 to improve its 1st rounder this year. Nothing to do with the father son bids.

What did the Lions trade last year? 2023. Go have a look. It was a couple of late pick swaps. Nothing significant at all.

They just won the premiership but still cried about potentially losing some points or a pick.

I do not see any justification from the Lions or Blues on why these changes couldn't have come in this year.

Essendon did its pick trades recently not last year.

Who exactly would have been disadvantaged from what they did in 2023? I'd love to understand who and how.

 

[GC2015]

What future pick trades?

So Carlton trade in four 2024 picks in the third / fourth rounds last year and you think that's got nothing to do with them planning to match bids for the Camporeale twins? Come on now. Their plans were obvious 12 months ago. Turns out they didn't need them for the most part, but that doesn't mean it's fair to just change the rules on them and other clubs. B.Camporeale was named in the AA team and SA's MVP so it's not like we're talking about rookie prospects.

I'll concede that Brisbane did most of their work for Levi Ashcroft this year. I'll cop that one.

 

[danster168]

Liberatore wasn't considered at top-20 player in the draft though.
Sam Darcy hardly contributed to any on-field success before this year.

Most people have the common sense to understand that clubs still have to pay something for these players, and they still have to retain them under the salary cap.

No, you didn't because you got Viney. Why is it merit with Viney (a top 5-10 prospect you got with a pick outisde the top 20) but the Dogs not merit with Libba (who wasn't a top 20 prospect?)

2010 Phantom Draft

Paul Daffey's official prediction of who will go where in Thursday night's NAB AFL Draft

www.nmfc.com.au

Incorrect. Libba was rated higher than Wallis by some clubs and Wallis was bid with Port's first round pick. So fair to say Libba would've been taken well ahead of pick 40 and wouldn't be at the dogs.

Sam Darcy I agree with. But his form this year was the sole reason why you finished where you finished. It also allows you to focus your resources on recruiting other players of need because you already have a key position sured up.

Regarding Viney, it's because we've had 1 good father-son/NGA in about 20 years whereas the dogs have had Darcy, West, Ugle-Hagan, Wallis, Cordy and Hunter with Croft on the way. Barely comparable.

 

[danster168]

Okay if you want to go through it - Collingwood used their natural pick 9 to recruit Darcy Moore, Josh Daicos was drafted with their natural pick 57 and Quaynor was bid on with pick 13 when Collingwood's natural pick that year was 16. I just don't think the Pies are a very good example of what you're suggesting because they were around the mark / used their natural picks anyway.

Let's be really clear about the Bulldogs here - they've gotten worse since they recruited Ugle-Hagan and Darcy when they were the Grand Finalists. They were already good and have fallen away since then. It's not like the Pies or Lions where you could make an argument about F/S picks leading them to a premiership.


So it's okay for your club to win a flag with a F/S player in the team, but not other clubs? How does that make any sense?

So the dogs bid on Darcy Moore at pick 5. In a fair system, he goes to the bulldogs and the Pies would have a choice between Duggan, Peter Wright, Ahern, Corey Ellis, Lachie Weller, Marchbank, Cockatoo, Lever, Garlett and Durdin. So the chances are that they are going to pick a spud. Not guaranteed, but more likely than not.

With Quaynor, he was bid on before the pies pick, which just demonstrates that he shouldn't be at the pies under a fair system. Pick 16 was Ned McHenry, then followed by Sam Sturt, Xavier Duursma, Liam Stocker, Collier-Dawkins, Ely Smith, Xavier O'Halloran and Jez Mclennan. So most likely, a spud is picked up there.

Out: Darcy Moore, Quaynor, Daicos
In: Cockatoo, Liam Stocker, Sam Darcy.

There goes the flag, top 4 and probably top 8.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

2010 Phantom Draft

Paul Daffey's official prediction of who will go where in Thursday night's NAB AFL Draft

www.nmfc.com.au

Incorrect. Libba was rated higher than Wallis by some clubs and Wallis was bid with Port's first round pick. So fair to say Libba would've been taken well ahead of pick 40 and wouldn't be at the dogs.

Top 25 draft prospects

He has a few key players dropping out like Watson, Pitt and Wilkinson http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/103717/default.aspx 1. David Swallow (East Fremantle): Is a complete midfielder who can do it all. At the age of 17 he finished fourth in the Liston Trophy (the...

www.bigfooty.com

Liberatore 22, Wallis not in the top 25. So not a top 20 prospect.

Anyway, you're basically splitting hairs if you're saying that taking a pick 25 with actually a pick 40. It really isn't that big a deal, in contrast to jumping 5 spots in the top 10 or whatever. Which ironically the Dogs were able to with Ayce Cordy, who was considered a 5-10 prospect with pick 13. Just nobody complains about the Dogs getting that advantage (which was clearly bigger than the Wallis and Liberatore ones), Cordy became a flop, even though the draft day value we got was far greater.

But his form this year was the sole reason why you finished where you finished. It also allows you to focus your resources on recruiting other players of need because you already have a key position sured up.

It really takes some lateral thinking, if attributing wins to a single player (as silly as that is), for it not to be Marcus Bontempelli, who was more or less unanimously considered the best player of the season acrosss all teams.

Darcy,

I'll cop that. We should pay more. But the romantic idea that he's a third generation Bulldog is not immaterial. It's why I enjoy the sport, as much as I enjoy a fair competition. I like the fact that I can watch Daicos' kids running around for the Pies too, even if I think they should have paid more.

West

Dogs paid roughly what he was worth. A pick in the 20's that has taken a while to get going and wasn't even selected for the final this year when fit, so not a cemented best 22 player anyway.

Ugle-Hagan

Sure. They changed the rules in response. But that was because the AFL dragged their heels in confirming exactly what the list sizes would be in the 2020-21 off-season, allowing for the Dogs to accumulate more points.

Wallis,

Not drafted with any higher of a pick than his rough draft rating. Pick 17 in the draft. Not in the top 25 power rankings with the above example.

Cordy and Hunter

Third rounders. If you think that jumping up from pick 55 to 45 in the draft or whatever is the sole reason for a club's success, you surely have rocks in your head.

Croft on the way

But his form this year was the sole reason why you finished where you finished. It also allows you to focus your resources on recruiting other players of need because you already have a key position sured up.

You're contradicting yourself here. Croft didn't play an AFL game in his first year and may never even be good enough to play an AFL game. Yet you're counting Darcy's on-field success this year as part of the reason why it's a win. So either you're measuring the relative gain on draft day, or you're measuring the direct on-field success. If it's the latter, you cannot include Croft in this list as he's yet to play a game (such that you also never included Ayce Cordy). You're contradicting your own already flawed points but including Croft in this list.

Anyway, the point being is that every single list move is done in the context of others.

When the Dogs traded for Adam Treloar (who they were getting for free because of Pies' salary cap issues), they attached pick 14 to the deal despite getting him for free, so we could get a bunch of 2nd and 3rd round picks back for Jamarra.

If Jamarra wasn't able to be selected by us, it is quite literally impossible to know what we would have paid for Treloar or what picks would have been involved, so your little exercise of "Dogs would have had player X instead of player Y" is a bit silly. The Dogs could have drafted Max Holmes with a pick we would have kept. We also could have drafted Finlay Macrae if we kept that pick 14. It's impossible to know and that's even assuming that the Dogs would have kept pick 14 anyway in acquiring Treloar, which they may not have, or maybe would have gotten future picks. The point being it's stupid to attribute one or the other as saying the "what if" as there's so many directions the what ifs could have happened.

All we know that the Dogs paid a bunch of late picks for Jamarra but we did give up a pick in the teens to get there, we just multiplied the value of that pick in the teens by engaging in draft value index points exchange rate arbitration, which is an issue with how the

 

[GC2015]

Out: Darcy Moore, Quaynor, Daicos
In: Cockatoo, Liam Stocker, Sam Darcy.

There goes the flag, top 4 and probably top 8.

How do they lose Daicos if they had a natural pick 2 and the bid didn't come until pick 4? Maybe you could say he slid because he was a F/S pick, but I remember a lot of people thought Jason Horne-Francis was the best available junior at the time. It's entirely possible Collingwood would have drafted Nick Daicos with their natural pick 2 had they not had F/S access to him. You can't categorically say Collingwood wouldn't have recruited Nick Daicos if they didn't have F/S access to him.

Now let's talk about your club benefitting from the F/S rule. Jack Viney was considered a draft prospect in the 6-8 range leading into the 2012 draft (source) and Port Adelaide bid on him with their pick 7. The Dees secured him with pick 26. That's an absolute steal - a top 10 pick for the price of a pick in the mid 20s and he goes on play 200+ games for the Dees, captain the club + becomes a premiership winner for them. Unbelievably good deal for Melbourne. Care to tell us how that's any more fair than any of the other players you've brought up?